1. #2001
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You can't do what gold does by paying cash. Well you can but it breaks the TOS/EULA.
    Except you can pay cash to get gold to do those things lol

  2. #2002
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Now you are just grasping at straws.

    It is very simple. In gaming P2W means buying a currency or power with real money to either skip a time sink or to buy power directly. This power or currency can be available in game.

    E.g. if you play a golf game that slowly awards you gems that can then be used to buy super balls then you are playing the game. If you pull out your credit card and buy those gems to get that ball straight away then you are P2W. It doesn't matter that you are shit and everyone still beats you even if you have loads of those balls. You still used a P2W mechanic.

    Buying gold to pay for the chance to get gear is P2W. Farming gold within the game to pay for runs is playing the game.

    Buying a boost is time skipping. Compared to another player who has level 1 you are skipping 100 plus hours for an average player. You are 100 hours ahead and 100 hours to 70 before the other player. 70 is where the game starts. You have an advantage.

    In P2W, there is no guarantee at winning. Just buying advantages over others.
    Except you are not buying advantage, you have already lost and will forever be behind. Comparing losers to losers isn't proper.

    The only way to have an advantage is to start early and play a lot at high level, no amount of money is going to change that. Thus you will never be able to win with just money.

    Now to translate it to your golf game example:
    Shop is off until highest skilled players finish all courses at highest difficulty. (thus you have already lost)
    You can only buy limited amount of gems.
    Playing a lot gives you much more gems at much faster rate.


    The only way money can buy you a "real win" is to hire some pro player to play on your account but that can be applied to every game ever made.
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  3. #2003
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Except you are not buying advantage, you have already lost and will forever be behind. Comparing losers to losers isn't proper.

    The only way to have an advantage is to start early and play a lot at high level, no amount of money is going to change that. Thus you will never be able to win with just money.

    Now to translate it to your golf game example:
    Shop is off until highest skilled players finish all courses at highest difficulty. (thus you have already lost)
    You can only buy limited amount of gems.
    Playing a lot gives you much more gems at much faster rate.


    The only way money can buy you a "real win" is to hire some pro player to play on your account but that can be applied to every game ever made.
    This all assumes you need to gain an advantage over every single other player (be the best, win) in the game for a system to qualify as P2W. This is not accurate. Gain an advantage over others - not gain an advantage over literally any other player of the game.

    P2W is a colloquial term, and there is nothing about the phrase that suggests a requirement to win, other than the fact the word win is in the phrase. This is the norm for such terms, it isn't even remotely unusual in the slightest. But "pay to win" has a ring to it, certainly more than "use your credit card to gain an advantage over other players". This is no doubt a major factor in why the phrase was adopted and has been used for so long, as is typically the case.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-16 at 05:30 AM.
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  4. #2004
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Gain an advantage over others - not gain an advantage over literally any other player of the game.
    I think you meant to say "every other"
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  5. #2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    The problem with the token is not what it does for or too the player, it's the effect that it makes on a for profit company that is a slave to quarterly earning reports. The token creates a lot of pressure on developing the game to get more token sales which means more and more content NOT focused on quality lore or enjoyable gameplay or immersive rpg experiences. This pressure is based on the 80 iq idea of bottom line short term profits over long term loyalty, which is pretty much gone for WoW players versus what it was at 10 or 12 years ago.
    Eh, that is more speculation. I hold my doubt much development time is attached to the outcome (and income) of the token. The token literally filled 3 problems and created one problem(?). It made it tougher for gold sellers, it made it tougher for illegal game-time sellers, and it made it easier for people to keep access to the game, and it created gold.

    It didn't just make things boom, one could call it a gold sink with value, even. When it came out, gold was way too easy to get, MoP made it easy but not as easy, and Cataclysm as well - heck, end of Wrath, an average player could pull in a good chunk too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Blizzard have 100% control over the transaction, including price. It is fully automated - if you dont believe me, try and trade one with a friend, or list it for a price other than what Blizzard tell you its worth, or sell one in trade.....
    The token price is controlled by Blizzard for supply and demand, they do not up the price for no reason, nor dump it. And I hold my best belief that it is for the better of the market, or you'll have auction scalping and token sales demanding MUCH more gold, making the token an exclusive product once more, heck, people talked earlier in this thread about inflation for these meager amounts but double or triple the price would happen in the control of us, the players.

    Following that. It is going through the Auction House for security measurements, and the sale is randomized so one cannot abuse it for special gold trades as we seen on the Auction already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Except you can pay cash to get gold to do those things lol
    Except, you are paying cash, to get game time, which you can sell for gold. Facts.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2021-06-16 at 06:28 AM.
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  6. #2006
    100 pages of this thread begs the question: How many more do people need to realize there won't be any kind of consensus?

  7. #2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rageonit View Post
    100 pages of this thread begs the question: How many more do people need to realize there won't be any kind of consensus?
    I'm willing to wrap it up.

    Boost is P2W by direct definition (if we go by a stretch that catch-up is P2W).
    Token is P2W by a stretch of calling it indirect P2W.
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  8. #2008
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Eh, that is more speculation. I hold my doubt much development time is attached to the outcome (and income) of the token. The token literally filled 3 problems and created one problem(?). It made it tougher for gold sellers, it made it tougher for illegal game-time sellers, and it made it easier for people to keep access to the game, and it created gold.

    It didn't just make things boom, one could call it a gold sink with value, even. When it came out, gold was way too easy to get, MoP made it easy but not as easy, and Cataclysm as well - heck, end of Wrath, an average player could pull in a good chunk too.

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    The token price is controlled by Blizzard for supply and demand, they do not up the price for no reason, nor dump it. And I hold my best belief that it is for the better of the market, or you'll have auction scalping and token sales demanding MUCH more gold, making the token an exclusive product once more, heck, people talked earlier in this thread about inflation for these meager amounts but double or triple the price would happen in the control of us, the players.

    Following that. It is going through the Auction House for security measurements, and the sale is randomized so one cannot abuse it for special gold trades as we seen on the Auction already.

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    Except, you are paying cash, to get game time, which you can sell for gold. Facts.
    Which I then use the gold to purchase power.

    Fax

  9. #2009
    I don't think P2W is so well defined that arguing over whether the existence of the token or not is P2W is a useful discussion. You can set your definition so that it falls on either side of that debate quite reasonably. Its pointless semantics where neither side is right or wrong. So wherever the gold comes from doesn't really matter too much.

    The only relevant question is whether it is good for the game or not. On balance I think the token is better than the alternative. Do I wish we lived in a world where all forms of gold purchasing was impossible in WoW? Probably, but that world can't reasonably exist, so I'd rather the gold was purchasable from Blizz.

    Edit: I believe the only reason to focus on the semantic side of the debate is because you have an axiom that P2W is inherently bad and so whether game has P2W elements means you can short-cut the discussion on whether those elements are bad. That's obviously not true; many of the characteristics of P2W are widely held to be bad, but it isn't universal.
    Last edited by Fenrys; 2021-06-16 at 09:27 AM.

  10. #2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrys View Post
    I don't think P2W is so well defined that arguing over whether the existence of the token or not is P2W is a useful discussion. You can set your definition so that it falls on either side of that debate quite reasonably. Its pointless semantics where neither side is right or wrong. So wherever the gold comes from doesn't really matter too much.

    The only relevant question is whether it is good for the game or not. On balance I think the token is better than the alternative. Do I wish we lived in a world where all forms of gold purchasing was impossible in WoW? Probably, but that world can't reasonably exist, so I'd rather the gold was purchasable from Blizz.
    It's pretty much universal that if you can buy player power with real money then it's p2w. But apparently according to people like rhorle, it's p2w when it's other games but not when it's WoW.

  11. #2011
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    It's pretty much universal that if you can buy player power with real money then it's p2w. But apparently according to people like rhorle, it's p2w when it's other games but not when it's WoW.
    Saying x pretty well accepted is missing the point.
    I mean, plenty are arguing that it depends where you get the power (does the gold come from other players or not). These aren't wholly unreasonable nuances or interpretations of the word. They have defined it so WoW falls out of scope, you define it so it falls in. Its just semantic and not very useful.
    Last edited by Fenrys; 2021-06-16 at 09:53 AM.

  12. #2012
    WoW is "p2w" for two crowds:
    - top progression guilds who try to cheese gearing mechanics by paying for ridiculous profession boosts and whatnot
    - casuals paying for m+/pvp boosts, which is more of a "pay 2 get second place"

    For all other players, no.

  13. #2013
    WoW is pay2win, you can use your credit card to buy gold. Then with that gold, you can buy BoEs of AH, boosts in the arena, or mythic raids.

    With the gear you bought via boosts you can go kill other players in arenas, open world pvp, bgs or rated bgs.

  14. #2014
    Win what? Who's getting prizes?

  15. #2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by n0n3 View Post
    WoW is pay2win, you can use your credit card to buy gold. Then with that gold, you can buy BoEs of AH, boosts in the arena, or mythic raids.

    With the gear you bought via boosts you can go kill other players in arenas, open world pvp, bgs or rated bgs.
    Well, you don't buy gold though? You buy game-time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrys View Post
    Saying x pretty well accepted is missing the point.
    I mean, plenty are arguing that it depends where you get the power (does the gold come from other players or not). These aren't wholly unreasonable nuances or interpretations of the word. They have defined it so WoW falls out of scope, you define it so it falls in. Its just semantic and not very useful.
    Well, basically what you are saying is what we saw some 90 pages ago, the birth of the 'indirect' P2W argument because the token is not direct P2W which the P2W definitions describe is the meaning of P2W.
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  16. #2016
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Well, you don't buy gold though? You buy game-time.
    Im getting probably banned for this but you are one of the most retarded people I encountered in my life. Or you being intentionally obnoxious which is worse.
    "Uhm didnt actually got money i got only got a credit!" Everyone knows, including the fucking blizzard that advertised token as BUYING gold through them instead from goldbuyers to solve that problem. Thats also why they list the CURRENT AH GOLDPRICE ON THE PAGE YOU BUY THE TOKEN WHY DO YOU THINK THATS THERE?
    Holy fucking shit i hope you get atleast getting paid to shill to afford the medications you are on.

  17. #2017
    the same discussion is on the classic subforum right now, and i asked something similar there:

    what do we gain after this discussion?
    one side gets to be grumpy while the others can stroke their epeen for being "correct"?

    let's say that we come to an answer "wow is P2W" or "wow is not P2W".
    why does it matter what it is defined as or called?

    there are a number of questions that are related to this that are far more interesting than a semantic discussion:

    "what are the advantages and problems of the token and is it overall benefical or harming?
    - basically what this discussion should be about in the first place.

    "should there be further limitations of real money influence on the game?"
    -this could touch on buying boosts and progress all the way to unlocking mechanics (valor upgrade achievements)

    "gold = power - good or bad?"
    - as seen in his thread, there are people who have the opinion that gold directly correlates to player power, in the form of BoEs or boosts.
    The above mentioned remarks, ideas and notions are simply my thought on this topic. I do not wish to aggravate, denounce or criticize anyone who, for whatever reason, may disagree.

  18. #2018
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Well, you don't buy gold though? You buy game-time.

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    Well, basically what you are saying is what we saw some 90 pages ago, the birth of the 'indirect' P2W argument because the token is not direct P2W which the P2W definitions describe is the meaning of P2W.
    Read what I posted mate. I'm not saying it. Just reporting what others are saying (so in response to your comment, no duh). I'm supporting neither side - I'm saying the argument is facile and pointless. Both sides are just defining around their conclusion. That conclusion is in aid of an axiom which isn't true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narzok View Post
    the same discussion is on the classic subforum right now, and i asked something similar there:

    what do we gain after this discussion?
    one side gets to be grumpy while the others can stroke their epeen for being "correct"?

    let's say that we come to an answer "wow is P2W" or "wow is not P2W".
    why does it matter what it is defined as or called?

    there are a number of questions that are related to this that are far more interesting than a semantic discussion:

    "what are the advantages and problems of the token and is it overall benefical or harming?
    - basically what this discussion should be about in the first place.

    "should there be further limitations of real money influence on the game?"
    -this could touch on buying boosts and progress all the way to unlocking mechanics (valor upgrade achievements)

    "gold = power - good or bad?"
    - as seen in his thread, there are people who have the opinion that gold directly correlates to player power, in the form of BoEs or boosts.
    This is more or less my point. The definition of P2W doesn't matter. The only reason that people are arguing it, is because of the presupposition that P2W is inherently bad, but that isn't true. Its only bad if you define it as such. The wider definitions of P2W result in a P2W which isn't necessarily bad so the far more relevant questions are the ones you posed; what effects do the mechanics implemented in the game have for its health? Should they be changed?

  19. #2019
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenrys View Post
    Read what I posted mate. I'm not saying it. Just reporting what others are saying (so in response to your comment, no duh). I'm supporting neither side - I'm saying the argument is facile and pointless. Both sides are just defining around their conclusion. That conclusion is in aid of an axiom which isn't true.
    And I agreed with that and pointed out how the argument developed, mate ^^

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaito92 View Post
    Im getting probably banned for this but you are one of the most retarded people I encountered in my life. Or you being intentionally obnoxious which is worse.
    "Uhm didnt actually got money i got only got a credit!" Everyone knows, including the fucking blizzard that advertised token as BUYING gold through them instead from goldbuyers to solve that problem. Thats also why they list the CURRENT AH GOLDPRICE ON THE PAGE YOU BUY THE TOKEN WHY DO YOU THINK THATS THERE?
    Holy fucking shit i hope you get atleast getting paid to shill to afford the medications you are on.
    If you cannot handle participating as an adult, then at least vacate the area.

    The gold value displayed is an estimation of the market at the current time. If you hold on to the token, there is a large chance that you are not getting the amount displayed when you purchased it. You are, in fact, buying a game-time product for trading. Hence I agree, you could, if you follow the newly created term of P2W in this thread, call it 'indirect P2W' - though the win is because you help another player get game-time/credits and you get gold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Falkeshall View Post
    Win what? Who's getting prizes?
    Sadly. The only prizes to obtain in WoW is through achievements, one could argue that beating WoW is when you have an achievement cap for the current content.
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  20. #2020
    Quote Originally Posted by n0n3 View Post
    WoW is pay2win, you can use your credit card to buy gold. Then with that gold, you can buy BoEs of AH, boosts in the arena, or mythic raids.

    With the gear you bought via boosts you can go kill other players in arenas, open world pvp, bgs or rated bgs.
    Gear isnt guarantee you anything. You can buy many boosts to get best gear for arena, but you will still be killed by more skilled and less geared f2p players. Same counts for raids - you can buy bosts to get perfect endgame gear but you still will be outdpsed by many less geared and more skilled f2p players.
    In this game skill matters much more than gear, and as you can't buy skill or can't buy enough powers to outperform skilled players - buying gold can't be considering p2w, because in most cases you will not win, you will still be a bad/mediocre player, just with gear.

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