1. #2061
    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    Putting mythis gear to the real mony store doesn't change anything - top players will stay top, shitty players will stay shitty, I believe it also doesn't change much in current leaderboards and parsing statistic. Because gear itself means much less than players tends to think.
    But it doesn't mean that blizz must immediatelly put all raiding gear to the store.
    The worst type of player to have in discussions about possible existence of P2W-elements in games: The one who is blatantly in favor of, or at best completely uninterested on the presence of, P2W elements.
    Last edited by Darkeon; 2021-06-17 at 10:24 AM. Reason: English is hard.

  2. #2062
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Well, you don't buy gold though? You buy game-time.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well, basically what you are saying is what we saw some 90 pages ago, the birth of the 'indirect' P2W argument because the token is not direct P2W which the P2W definitions describe is the meaning of P2W.

    We buy tokens to buy game time? While that is technically true, no sane person buys a token to use for themselves on game time. No one spends £17 for a wow token to get one month game time which you get for £9.99 for a month sub, which can be cancelled straight away, using the exact same payment method. So, if you don’t use it for game time, the only option is to sell it. No one is that obtuse without it being intentional.

    I normally enjoy what you write, and actually value what you write as being very constructive but that was hard to swallow.

    Now, what you do with the gold is a different story. I sell tokens for raid consumables. Is it pay to win in that regard? No, but using the gold to pay for a boost to win arena games, I believe it is. It’s pay to win, with extra steps.

  3. #2063
    40 more pages of some people claiming leveling is power and therefor buyable and P2W in World of Warcraft, unbelievable.

    At least i hope you guys are having fun playing with the pretty colors, otherwise i cant even understand why you know games like WoW exist.

    Yeah, this thread is the reason i no longer feel bad charging people $ for 5 clicks on Teamviewer and Anydesk nowdays, you guys deserve to get separated from your money as quickly as possible.

    104 pages and people still dont understand the actual concept of P2W in a game, because in their own insanely low skilled gameplay level, anything is considered a win, especially in a game that doesnt even have a win element, rofl.

    Unbelievable
    Last edited by potis; 2021-06-17 at 11:54 AM.

  4. #2064
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Cool - so without even realising it, you acknowledge that it is P2W.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh right, so EXACTLY like spending a LOT of time earning the gold, relying on RNG and time, OR, insta get the gold from buying a token. In both scenarios, you can do it yourself over time, or, you can pay and get the result instantly.
    The thing you don't realize, having advantage over someone who doesn't put any effort is true for every game ever created and cannot be in any way called P2W.
    I don't know how this concept eluded you since the beginning but comparing yourself to lowest possible bar doesn't make you a winner.
    Just like you have the "advantage" over every player that stopped playing in MoP because you paid for every expansion and game time.

    So exactly NOT like being dependent on other players willingness to give you boost OR waiting before players have gear OR having to abide weekly lockout rules OR the fact you can do this without spending a dime.


    Calling wow P2W is like calling a mixed race (where everyone can compete) a P2W just because you think those $1000 running shoes will give you advantage over elderly or disabled people.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
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  5. #2065
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Calling wow P2W is like calling a mixed race (where everyone can compete) a P2W just because you think those $1000 running shoes will give you advantage over elderly or disabled people.
    Since we are talking about hilarity that is comparing a virtual service to real life examples: Imagine paying $60 to get placed further into the track, on said mixed race, and having Kaminaris raving about how acceptable it is.

  6. #2066
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Since we are talking about hilarity that is comparing a virtual service to real life examples: Imagine paying $60 to get placed further into the track, on said mixed race, and having Kaminaris raving about how acceptable it is.
    Thats exactly your problem. You think you are placed further into track but in reality you are paying $60 for a taxi to get placed on the start of the track. Instead of having to walk from your apartment.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    How to use simcraft
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    PS doesn't count, it's different game

  7. #2067
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Thats exactly your problem. You think you are placed further into track but in reality you are paying $60 for a taxi to get placed on the start of the track. Instead of having to walk from your apartment.
    And that's why comparing reality with virtual services, especially games, it's hilarious.

    In games, there is no walk. No apartment. No race track. Simply a start and, in cases of MMORPGs, an 'end' that is quite debatable and subjective.

    It's quite simple, really. You either boot up the game and:
    - You gotta grind from the get go, or as we call it, a game without p2w elements.
    Or;
    - You can purchase a service that let's you skip a portion of said grind, or as we call it, a game with p2w elements.

    See? Easy to describe both sides of the P2W Yes or No debate without needing race tracks.

  8. #2068
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    And that's why comparing reality with virtual services, especially games, it's hilarious.

    In games, there is no walk. No apartment. No race track. Simply a start and, in cases of MMORPGs, an 'end' that is quite debatable and subjective.

    It's quite simple, really. You either boot up the game and:
    - You gotta grind from the get go, or as we call it, a game without p2w elements.
    Or;
    - You can purchase a service that let's you skip a portion of said grind, or as we call it, a game with p2w elements.

    See? Easy to describe both sides of the P2W Yes or No debate without needing race tracks.
    Nope, its not how it works. People that simply played the game are "up to date" while you are behind and pay to barely catch up to them.

    I might have consider it pay to win if it took you couple of months of grinding but reality is its just a couple of hours.

    Have you actually play any pay to win game? Seems to me like you are just extremely dissatisfied with shadowlands (Surprise, me too) and grasping at straws bending reality to match your argument.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    How to use simcraft
    Results when you get when you understand simcraft
    PS doesn't count, it's different game

  9. #2069
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Since we are talking about hilarity that is comparing a virtual service to real life examples: Imagine paying $60 to get placed further into the track, on said mixed race, and having Kaminaris raving about how acceptable it is.
    Except that you can't buy better place on the track by paying, thats it.
    All so-called "p2w" elements in wow looks like: "oh, shit, guys, I'm late to start!" - "No prob, pay us, and we can put you just after the last race member". Not firther than others, just to last positions.
    Most of players who buys bosts and such: "Oh, shit, everyone already have their cars!" - "No prob, pay us and we can give you a medoicre car". But of course this will not guarantee you to win and even to get to the race track. You can easily be kicked say from the mythic key group after checking your raider.io profile and detecting that you're boost buyer. As I already said, even best gear will not allow you to push like 90-95% of performance (I'm not even talking about top performance, you can't achieve it for any reasonable money, the only way is to buy the time of top player completely and allow him to play your toon instead of you). In most cases boost buyers just moves from very shitty (like worst 10% of performance) to just shitty positions (like 20-30%). Continuing racing examples: your boost will allow you to skip a couple of very shitty drivers, but you will never catch up good (or perfect) pilots even with full gear from boosting.

  10. #2070
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    We buy tokens to buy game time? While that is technically true, no sane person buys a token to use for themselves on game time. No one spends £17 for a wow token to get one month game time which you get for £9.99 for a month sub, which can be cancelled straight away, using the exact same payment method. So, if you don’t use it for game time, the only option is to sell it. No one is that obtuse without it being intentional.
    Naw, this statement is purely because I enjoy sticking to the facts. You do not purchase gold from Blizzard. I am just getting tired of people stating you do. If you did purchase gold from Blizzard, it would be P2W but you are not. As mentioned before, this is why they started using 'indirect P2W' as an argument to cover their rear as to you getting gold anyways, even though currently for me, is not a term used as a definition until this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    I normally enjoy what you write, and actually value what you write as being very constructive but that was hard to swallow.
    Glad you enjoy the previous comments on MMO-Champion. Sorry to disappoint.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Now, what you do with the gold is a different story. I sell tokens for raid consumables. Is it pay to win in that regard? No, but using the gold to pay for a boost to win arena games, I believe it is. It’s pay to win, with extra steps.
    The reason I'm being more factual is due to part of what you write here. Some people buy a token from the auction house so that they may enjoy their game, or upgrade it, or buy a mount/pet/service from the store - that does not really flag as P2W for me. Others purchase items in-game in the form of transmogs, mounts, pets, gear, not really sounding P2W either if we follow the main definition of it (sold by the developer) and for the boosting.. Ugh.. I wouldn't call it P2W for it is not Blizzard supplying once more unless we use the damn 'indirect' term.

    My stance on the boosting community is though, I hope they all get kicked out of the game, disappear, delete their mains by accident, whatever. My stance on the boosting community for a currency has been the same since Vanilla. I can't stand them. I wish they perish. I have done thousands of boosts myself through the existence of WoW, for free, never charged. It has increased more and more. Thought the years it has massively grown from small prices for a boost, to ToS breaking services, to larger prices for a boost, to more ToS breaking services, until - the token. ToS breaking services dropped off the radar almost, and now it is the token, sadly means with the pinch of safety in getting gold now from other players by giving them what they need, people have figured out how to pressure the price up even further.

    If it stood to me, then I would've had the token stay in-game permanently. Go find some rare/random NPC willing to sell you a token for gold which can be converted for game-time or Battle.net currency, limit the purchases of tokens to 5 pr. month maximum.

    The boost (the service) for me, could be at a stretch, P2W but I do not believe so, for it is a catch-up to the current content, it does not help you any bit in the current content other than you can play it.
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  11. #2071
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Naw, this statement is purely because I enjoy sticking to the facts. You do not purchase gold from Blizzard. I am just getting tired of people stating you do. If you did purchase gold from Blizzard, it would be P2W but you are not. As mentioned before, this is why they started using 'indirect P2W' as an argument to cover their rear as to you getting gold anyways, even though currently for me, is not a term used as a definition until this thread.


    Glad you enjoy the previous comments on MMO-Champion. Sorry to disappoint.


    The reason I'm being more factual is due to part of what you write here. Some people buy a token from the auction house so that they may enjoy their game, or upgrade it, or buy a mount/pet/service from the store - that does not really flag as P2W for me. Others purchase items in-game in the form of transmogs, mounts, pets, gear, not really sounding P2W either if we follow the main definition of it (sold by the developer) and for the boosting.. Ugh.. I wouldn't call it P2W for it is not Blizzard supplying once more unless we use the damn 'indirect' term.

    My stance on the boosting community is though, I hope they all get kicked out of the game, disappear, delete their mains by accident, whatever. My stance on the boosting community for a currency has been the same since Vanilla. I can't stand them. I wish they perish. I have done thousands of boosts myself through the existence of WoW, for free, never charged. It has increased more and more. Thought the years it has massively grown from small prices for a boost, to ToS breaking services, to larger prices for a boost, to more ToS breaking services, until - the token. ToS breaking services dropped off the radar almost, and now it is the token, sadly means with the pinch of safety in getting gold now from other players by giving them what they need, people have figured out how to pressure the price up even further.

    If it stood to me, then I would've had the token stay in-game permanently. Go find some rare/random NPC willing to sell you a token for gold which can be converted for game-time or Battle.net currency, limit the purchases of tokens to 5 pr. month maximum.

    The boost (the service) for me, could be at a stretch, P2W but I do not believe so, for it is a catch-up to the current content, it does not help you any bit in the current content other than you can play it.
    I dunno, considering I have a guildie that buys a token every second week to buy a M+ boost for weekly 14/15 chest, when we were progressing CN M to get loot, seems awfully P2W to me. She would raid log, and then on an off raid night get the boost and then collect her loot. Since we extended our lockouts fairly early into progression, like a lot of 2 days a week guilds, it would be her only source of gear. Unless she got lucky with a loot drop from the boss we were progressing.

    What makes that P2W for me, is that Blizzard is supplying the token for the gold. The boosting, even though I share the same stance as you, I dont think would be P2W without the token mainly because you have to play the game to gather the gold to pay the boosters. With the token, she just pulls out her credit card and gets the boost. As I have said before, it’s not directly P2W but P2W with extra steps.

    Sadly, it’s because of this I don’t think Blizz will do anything about the boosting community. They are probably making a fortune from people like my guildie, but that’s another topic.

  12. #2072
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    I dunno, considering I have a guildie that buys a token every second week to buy a M+ boost for weekly 14/15 chest, when we were progressing CN M to get loot, seems awfully P2W to me. She would raid log, and then on an off raid night get the boost and then collect her loot. Since we extended our lockouts fairly early into progression, like a lot of 2 days a week guilds, it would be her only source of gear. Unless she got lucky with a loot drop from the boss we were progressing.

    What makes that P2W for me, is that Blizzard is supplying the token for the gold. The boosting, even though I share the same stance as you, I dont think would be P2W without the token mainly because you have to play the game to gather the gold to pay the boosters. With the token, she just pulls out her credit card and gets the boost. As I have said before, it’s not directly P2W but P2W with extra steps.

    Sadly, it’s because of this I don’t think Blizz will do anything about the boosting community. They are probably making a fortune from people like my guildie, but that’s another topic.
    Lol gather the gold, you guys are so adorable..Are you this naive or?

    Your guildie, would just get the gold supplied from one of the hundred bot farmers with a high chance of getting hacked, and banned cause of it, the same way people were buying gold since the first day of WoW release date.

    Again, its amazing what insane lack of knowledge and information is provided in this thread in order to get a non-existent point across.

  13. #2073
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    the idea that in order for a game to be pay to win you must be able to spend your money and instantly be at the top of every facet in the game is a ridiculous goalpost that's impossible to reach, and if you apply that to other games you'll find that theres not a whole lot out there that is actually pay to win, and definitely nothing where that payment is on top of a subscription.

    In simplest terms, you can pay real money for power. without the context of the argument i'm certain just about everyone could agree on this.

    You can buy gold. You can pay money directly to blizzard (who then take a cut and give the remainder to the seller) and they give you a useful resource. The fact that were even having this discussion just means blizzard did a pretty good job of implementing it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Lol gather the gold, you guys are so adorable..Are you this naive or?

    Your guildie, would just get the gold supplied from one of the hundred bot farmers with a high chance of getting hacked, and banned cause of it, the same way people were buying gold since the first day of WoW release date.
    a high chance of getting hacked, and banned cause of it
    hacked, and banned cause of it
    you don't see the difference between one being a major risk and the other being not a risk at all and completely available within the blizzard ui?

    You really can't make this shit up.

  14. #2074
    Quote Originally Posted by Beastiel View Post
    the idea that in order for a game to be pay to win you must be able to spend your money and instantly be at the top of every facet in the game is a ridiculous goalpost that's impossible to reach, and if you apply that to other games you'll find that theres not a whole lot out there that is actually pay to win, and definitely nothing where that payment is on top of a subscription.

    In simplest terms, you can pay real money for power. without the context of the argument i'm certain just about everyone could agree on this.

    You can buy gold. You can pay money directly to blizzard (who then take a cut and give the remainder to the seller) and they give you a useful resource. The fact that were even having this discussion just means blizzard did a pretty good job of implementing it.

    - - - Updated - - -







    you don't see the difference between one being a major risk and the other being not a risk at all and completely available within the blizzard ui?

    You really can't make this shit up.
    I know the difference, i also know WoW has no P2W elements unless you are so low skilled that anything is considered an achievement in your game time.

    Congratulations, you breathed through the nose today!

    You do realize this thread reached 105 pages of people trying to prove their own way of what they consider P2W is the way, therefor everything in WoW is P2W now?

  15. #2075
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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Lol gather the gold, you guys are so adorable..Are you this naive or?

    Your guildie, would just get the gold supplied from one of the hundred bot farmers with a high chance of getting hacked, and banned cause of it, the same way people were buying gold since the first day of WoW release date.

    Again, its amazing what insane lack of knowledge and information is provided in this thread in order to get a non-existent point across.
    Well before WoW token, in Mists she farmed gold cause she didn’t want her account banned. She had some T3 pieces and that hand of title, so she was very protective over account being banned. So I’m not sure what your point is. Once the token came in, she stopped farming and used tokens to buy consumables instead.

    If Blizz didn’t bring in the token, she would do keys herself and put in the effort. In her words, “why do the effort when I make enough for others to do it for me?”

  16. #2076
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I can purchase power with a currency I purchased with ash. Factually, and definitively, that is P2W.
    But only if players allow it. Both for gold and the Win you purchase separately. All for gold that was gained by players and services that are provided by players independent of your cash. That isn't pay to win. There is no maybe, chance, or fail built in to the term "Pay to win".
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  17. #2077
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    Well before WoW token, in Mists she farmed gold cause she didn’t want her account banned. She had some T3 pieces and that hand of title, so she was very protective over account being banned. So I’m not sure what your point is. Once the token came in, she stopped farming and used tokens to buy consumables instead.

    If Blizz didn’t bring in the token, she would do keys herself and put in the effort. In her words, “why do the effort when I make enough for others to do it for me?”
    Is it wrong in some form of gameplay honesty or ethics/morality? Sure

    Is it relevant to the game or any sort of win? No.

    And thats the difference, its irrelevant, token was introduced because a big number of dum dums were getting hacked by shady sites, and Blizzard found a way to fix it, and capitalize on it.

    The outcries are from people that consider any sort of in-game thing a "win", because they are that incompetent.

  18. #2078
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    Reality is WoW tokens are direct pay2win. Whatever your opinions and arguments to the contrary, they don't change reality.
    Gold is not a win. The only thing you directly get from a token is gold.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    - You can purchase a service that let's you skip a portion of said grind, or as we call it, a game with p2w elements.
    But that grind is not skipped. Another player has to have farmed the gold and you are only paying for their effort. Gold doesn't provide a win by itself so there is no pay to win element here.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #2079
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Gold is not a win. The only thing you directly get from a token is gold.
    I'm well aware of your wrong opinions on this, you've made it abundantly clear. Reality is WoW remain P2W regardless.

  20. #2080
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    I'm well aware of your wrong opinions on this, you've made it abundantly clear. Reality is WoW remain P2W regardless.
    It isn't wrong to say that the WoW token is not direct pay to win. You do not directly get a win from buying a token as gold is not a win.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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