1. #2101
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boiled-Lobster View Post
    Technically a game in which you can buy its currency is labeled pay to win,

    Thus to say so, buying a token for In-game currrency in order to use that currency is pay to win.

    however, in the case of WoW it is different, given the auction house has always been there. given current community standards, WoW has been pay to win since it's launch?

    Of course, having a in-game economy is something entirely different. but there always have been gold sellers, and tokens were merely invented to counter the black market as they seemingly had difficulties banning the right persons behind gold sellers.
    Basically the basics of some of the thread, either it's been P2W the whole time, or it ain't, if we talk currency.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    If a football team has one violent player, you say "that player is violent". If a football team has 9 violent players, you are far, far more likely to say "that team is violent".

    I apply the same logic with games - if it has 1 or 2 minor systems that grant an advantage to those paying, I will say "that feature is clearly p2w", while if a game is based around countless p2w features, and the business model is based around those features, I am far, far more likely to say "that game is p2w".

    Don't mind if you disagree, I understand your pov as well.
    Honestly, the is a good way to make an easy description but it might not answer the questions of many in the thread.
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  2. #2102
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Indeed, but boosting has been an issue since Vanilla, heck, so has the purchase of currency.
    no it isn't
    pre-token era boost was rare to none, because most ppl didn't even care to get gold, cosmetics were almost none (2nd highest mount was 20k gold), most top raiding guilds need gold just for repair bills and consumables and that is extremely easy obtainable by logging 1 single day every week beside raiding doing anything at all
    pre-token gold was just that, gold, getting gold was just to be a greedy goblin nothing else, has no in-game benefit, 1 mount was 100k i think 2nd highest 20k, assume u even care about them in first place (i still didn't get the 100k mount, and i have a lot more mounts and even higher)
    i did 1 boost in my wrath era where i was in top guild horde side and was out of boredom and fun, pre-token most ppl were pugging instead of buying/selling boosts, now no one does that
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  3. #2103
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Or. Stay with me here. You pay for the currency in a sanctioned transaction by the developer. You pay real money for in-game currency. Where that in game currency comes from is irrelevant. Once you have that currency. That you pay money for. It is up to you to decide what to do with this currency.

    Recap
    Step 1: Pay someone real money for in game currency.
    Step 2: ?
    Step 3: You have successfully participated in P2W.
    So.. We're back to my conclusive statement deeper in this thread, with your view, the game has been P2W since its 2nd week of existence? You are, after all, stating it does not matter some of the steps.

    Though I'd waiver a good chunk of my comments on the description another user in here recently has made, making the game not fall under the P2W tag, one or two of its features does.
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  4. #2104
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    So you can buy a carry. So what? You still have to go through the raid, right? You can't just sit outside the entrance, logged in, while the group does all the work, right? So you still have to spend the same amount of time whether you're going through the raid the first time or if you're being carried through it. It's not like there's a button you press when you log in that delivers all the gold and loot you would get to your inbox, ready to use.

    It's almost like you're so caught up in your narrative that you can't think logically and realize the truth.
    Rofl you really thikink boosting take same amounth of time like going trough raid for very first time? HAHA no it doesnt its way way way faster with boosting group. Also nobady buys boosting for gear. Gear is meaningless becouse how blizz completly resets our progess each patch. If you get mount and AoTC you dont even need gear after that becouse you alredy have rewards what matter most. So atlest use your brain next time you try post something. Game get into state where players doesnt give single ***** about gear progression. Its all about those end game achievement and mounts and in such desgin its way more efficient to just buy boost kill end game boss and quit till new patch then waste time progressing with guild.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    So.. We're back to my conclusive statement deeper in this thread, with your view, the game has been P2W since its 2nd week of existence? You are, after all, stating it does not matter some of the steps.

    Though I'd waiver a good chunk of my comments on the description another user in here recently has made, making the game not fall under the P2W tag, one or two of its features does.
    If you buying gold for 3rd part website what is againts ToS and get you banned few days later such game isnt P2W becouse it do not promotes P2W.

  5. #2105
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    no it isn't
    pre-token era boost was rare to none, because most ppl didn't even care to get gold, cosmetics were almost none (2nd highest mount was 20k gold), most top raiding guilds need gold just for repair bills and consumables and that is extremely easy obtainable by logging 1 single day every week beside raiding doing anything at all
    pre-token gold was just that, gold, getting gold was just to be a greedy goblin nothing else, has no in-game benefit, 1 mount was 100k i think 2nd highest 20k, assume u even care about them in first place (i still didn't get the 100k mount, and i have a lot more mounts and even higher)
    i did 1 boost in my wrath era where i was in top guild horde side and was out of boredom and fun, pre-token most ppl were pugging instead of buying/selling boosts, now no one does that
    Boosting for gold, and even real money, has been a thing since Vanilla, one of them only dying out thanks to the Token, even the aggressive gold sellers are dying out, thanks to the Token. I recall sitting being in the cities to form my own raids, or get consumables, that there were a lot of trade messages offering boosts for either the price of gold, certain items being reserved (that was a big cost once), or RMTs. It wasn't rare. You saw them daily, all the way up, and if you took a little trip to Ratchet or Booty Bay, you would be in Gold seller central.

    Thottbot, Allakhazam, WoWhead, and even MMO-champion have fought against advertisements popping up for gold sales, RMT serves such as boosting, or rare items, and more for a long time, and heck, MMO-champion still has people mentioning that a few of such sites still cycle into their advertisements now and then, hence they ask people to report it instead of bringing it up/complain about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    If you buying gold for 3rd part website what is againts ToS and get you banned few days later such game isnt P2W becouse it do not promotes P2W.
    I wasn't the one who said some steps don't matter.

    Even at that, a good source of gold from the outside world without breaking ToS, was the sale of TCG cards.
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  6. #2106
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Boosting for gold, and even real money, has been a thing since Vanilla, one of them only dying out thanks to the Token, even the aggressive gold sellers are dying out, thanks to the Token. I recall sitting being in the cities to form my own raids, or get consumables, that there were a lot of trade messages offering boosts for either the price of gold, certain items being reserved (that was a big cost once), or RMTs. It wasn't rare. You saw them daily, all the way up, and if you took a little trip to Ratchet or Booty Bay, you would be in Gold seller central.

    Thottbot, Allakhazam, WoWhead, and even MMO-champion have fought against advertisements popping up for gold sales, RMT serves such as boosting, or rare items, and more for a long time, and heck, MMO-champion still has people mentioning that a few of such sites still cycle into their advertisements now and then, hence they ask people to report it instead of bringing it up/complain about it.
    Boosting for gold what you made yourself by playing game isnt P2W. Boosting for gold you bought for real money is P2W. And just becouse there was ilegal way to buy gold in vannila doesnt mean vannila was P2W. Becouse P2W is based around if game company promotes it instead of fighting it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Boosting for gold, and even real money, has been a thing since Vanilla, one of them only dying out thanks to the Token, even the aggressive gold sellers are dying out, thanks to the Token. I recall sitting being in the cities to form my own raids, or get consumables, that there were a lot of trade messages offering boosts for either the price of gold, certain items being reserved (that was a big cost once), or RMTs. It wasn't rare. You saw them daily, all the way up, and if you took a little trip to Ratchet or Booty Bay, you would be in Gold seller central.

    Thottbot, Allakhazam, WoWhead, and even MMO-champion have fought against advertisements popping up for gold sales, RMT serves such as boosting, or rare items, and more for a long time, and heck, MMO-champion still has people mentioning that a few of such sites still cycle into their advertisements now and then, hence they ask people to report it instead of bringing it up/complain about it.

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    I wasn't the one who said some steps don't matter.

    Even at that, a good source of gold from the outside world without breaking ToS, was the sale of TCG cards.
    It was againts ToS its just wasnt possible to find out.

  7. #2107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Boosting for gold what you made yourself by playing game isnt P2W. Boosting for gold you bought for real money is P2W. And just becouse there was ilegal way to buy gold in vannila doesnt mean vannila was P2W. Becouse P2W is based around if game company promotes it instead of fighting it.
    This statement was literally about boosting having been around for ages, and been an issue in one way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    It was againts ToS its just wasnt possible to find out.
    The sales of TCG items for gold were 100% permitted, and endorsed by Blizzard Entertainment, else there wouldn't have been BoE TCG items. They held no problem with people selling their TCG (BoE items) for gold, and then you have TCG items that were sold outside the game, for real money, or gold as well - not permitted (the gold part) but it happened too, very common for the BoP cards.
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  8. #2108
    WoW is not a classic pay to win game. If you want to know what is one, look up Gameforge and their popular browser games such as OGame.

    Now that's a clear pay to win, as some features provide straight up advantage (+10% resource production, faster research etc.) and can only be bought with real money. They later introduced a premium currency that can be veeeeeery slowly farmed ingame, but that's still pay to win as fuck, it was not sustainable at all. Took months to farm up enough currency for just a single week of premium feature.

    WoW isn't like that. You can either buy a boost or just play the game (duh!) Players that boost aren't doing better than those that are playing the game.

  9. #2109
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    This statement was literally about boosting having been around for ages, and been an issue in one way or the other.



    The sales of TCG items for gold were 100% permitted, and endorsed by Blizzard Entertainment, else there wouldn't have been BoE TCG items. They held no problem with people selling their TCG (BoE items) for gold, and then you have TCG items that were sold outside the game, for real money, or gold as well - not permitted (the gold part) but it happened too, very common for the BoP cards.
    No your statement is. Boosting was in WoW for ages so current problem of P2W bossting is ok. Thats what you are saying. People like you always look into past see small amount of existence of something and use it to justifi its existence in present wow. Yes people bought gold in vannila and got banned, were total minority and it had very very small impact on players enyjoment of the game. Current boosting in moder game is literaly only thing what is trading atm. It completly ruined game and exist beocuse of existence of token and Blizzard promoting gold selling isntead of fighting it. Do you play classic? Becouse i do and barely anyone bothers to buy boosts or sell boosts. Why? Becouse majority of players do not have easy acess to gold becouse game do not have token.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Athulua View Post
    WoW is not a classic pay to win game. If you want to know what is one, look up Gameforge and their popular browser games such as OGame.

    Now that's a clear pay to win, as some features provide straight up advantage (+10% resource production, faster research etc.) and can only be bought with real money. They later introduced a premium currency that can be veeeeeery slowly farmed ingame, but that's still pay to win as fuck, it was not sustainable at all. Took months to farm up enough currency for just a single week of premium feature.

    WoW isn't like that. You can either buy a boost or just play the game (duh!) Players that boost aren't doing better than those that are playing the game.
    P2W is anygame where you can buy power for real money. Thats it. If i can take my real life money and buy power for it game is in fact P2W. P2W has nothing to do if you can get something for real money but cant for playing game. Its describes any game where you can buy power for real money.

  10. #2110
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    the widely accepted definition of p2w is using real money to buy power. Whether that be currency, gear, or straight up power like the level boosts. Whenever any other game other than WoW is mentioned, it's called p2w. But suddenly it stops being p2w when it's WoW.
    Show me. Or it's just you and a few others saying so. No advantage can be given over ANY player who chooses not to spend a dime, except convenience. Convenience isn't "winning", and is also not giving "advantage". I mean seriously.

    But hey, feel free to throw terms and meanings around, it's the internet.

  11. #2111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    What are you "winning" when those gear boxes get available?
    Personally i don’t see anything P2W about it, but i guess the argument that those that do is ”Time”.

    Players who choose to play ”Normally” might find it unfair that they are limited by raid lockouts but boxes can be bought infinite number of times.

    It’s all really dumb tho, Since ”Winning” has nothing to do with your ilvl.

    If anything getting highest gear faster will just make you feel hollow and empty, as there is no point to do any thing anymore

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  12. #2112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    No your statement is. Boosting was in WoW for ages so current problem of P2W bossting is ok. Thats what you are saying.
    No. I was stating the boosting has been an issue since Vanilla. Doesn't make it okay but doesn't make it easily solved either. Token or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    People like you always look into past see small amount of existence of something and use it to justifi its existence in present wow.
    Says a person like you who tag the whole game as P2W because of one or two minor things within, and said things aren't even needed to play the game successfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Yes people bought gold in vannila and got banned, were total minority and it had very very small impact on players enyjoment of the game.
    Gold sales in Vanilla weren't some small pot, definitely wasn't a minority, the amount would most likely just have been smaller than now. And how you see it, is how you react on the Token, if you had an issue with the Token, then it DID impact people then too, for they could buy their advancements for the gold - no matter how you see the Token, the gold sales DID impact players enjoyment of the game. Loads of botting, hacking, hacked and stripped accounts, aggressive advertisement in the form of whispers, mail (in-game), thousands of calendar invites, and floating advertisements by hacking lvl 1 characters. Ratchet and Booty Bay were back then, luckily by time it thinned out, but before it was overrun with very obvious gold sales characters, or gold transfer characters, or also were a good amount of hacked characters got parked, stripped, and had their gear vendored for use of the coin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Current boosting in moder game is literaly only thing what is trading atm.
    No, it is literally not the only thing that is trading. It is highly advertised but not the only thing, just to be straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    It completly ruined game
    It didn't ruin the game, it ruined your view of the game because of how other players choose to play the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    and exist beocuse of existence of token
    It is VISIBLE because the token made it safer, and easier to do it, the only problem now is having to trust players with the gold, and not get scammed. Before that, it existed in huge positions anyways, but higher chance of being scammed, or cheaper, or RMT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    and Blizzard promoting gold selling isntead of fighting it.
    Blizzard literally offered the only solution to fix it, make their own version safer and easier. Gold selling wouldn't be able to be stopped without disabling any form of trade, or currency trade, but then they would go to the auction house and sell some overpriced grey - which is also going on at the current.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Do you play classic? Becouse i do and barely anyone bothers to buy boosts or sell boosts. Why? Becouse majority of players do not have easy acess to gold becouse game do not have token.
    Yes, I play Classic now and then but Classic is a side-simulation of the main game, and is, as we can see, not struck with the same events and methods that happened during Vanilla and TBC (And forward). But even so, you still have boost sales but much cheaper because no safe and easy gold, yet you can buy gold from gold traders (people trying to make a value of Classic gold for Progression/Main gold), or gold sellers - yes, they are in Classic too.
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  13. #2113
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Yes, I play Classic now and then but Classic is a side-simulation of the main game, and is, as we can see, not struck with the same events and methods that happened during Vanilla and TBC (And forward). But even so, you still have boost sales but much cheaper because no safe and easy gold, yet you can buy gold from gold traders (people trying to make a value of Classic gold for Progression/Main gold), or gold sellers - yes, they are in Classic too.
    You dont have them cheaper. Players do not have enough gold so boost sellers do no waste time boosting becouse time vs gold earn isnt worth the effort.

    Oh and btw i just did some digging and find out that you are one of the boost sellers. So i am dont talking to you since you are biased as you have agenda when comes to boosting so your opinion on this matter is completly useless.

  14. #2114
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Boosting for gold, and even real money, has been a thing since Vanilla, one of them only dying out thanks to the Token, even the aggressive gold sellers are dying out, thanks to the Token. I recall sitting being in the cities to form my own raids, or get consumables, that there were a lot of trade messages offering boosts for either the price of gold, certain items being reserved (that was a big cost once), or RMTs. It wasn't rare. You saw them daily, all the way up, and if you took a little trip to Ratchet or Booty Bay, you would be in Gold seller central.
    yes and they were all illegal hence why they weren't introduced as much as now
    i know someone in classic who bought gold to get his mount, and heard of someone who bought boost for T2, but that's it, they were the exception, not the common
    now it is the common to get a boost to be able to get to raiding guild, not the reverse, u are expected to get ahead of curve from week 2 at most, and have higher ilvl from raid if u want to pug from week 3, assume u can find a pug in first place (or even if u create one, find ppl who will join)
    and seriously the fact that the top classic raiding guild on official server said they leaving classic because the old experience is ruined and they flat out said that now all are about buying and selling boosts and nothing else seal that deal, we talk about ppl who played classic at its release, stayed in private servers for 16 years, played on official only to find it fucked by boosts and leaving it because they are fed (and they probably will be back to private, of course they can't type that officially), what more proof u want?
    Ask any old player if they found boost selling 24/7 pre-token era as much as now, i don't claim there was none, heck i admit i did one, but i strongly confirm that they were way less pre-token
    Last edited by sam86; 2021-09-27 at 08:30 AM.
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  15. #2115
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmittay View Post
    Show me. Or it's just you and a few others saying so. No advantage can be given over ANY player who chooses not to spend a dime, except convenience. Convenience isn't "winning", and is also not giving "advantage". I mean seriously.
    Paying Gladiators to play with you and push your PvP Rating certainly does qualify as advantage and is pay to win.

    And no philosophical musings over "what is winning" in an MMO changes that, because you literally win games against other players because you play with people that you are paying.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-09-27 at 08:32 AM.

  16. #2116
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    yes and they were all illegal hence why they weren't introduced as much as now
    i know someone in classic who bought gold to get his mount, and heard of someone who bought boost for T2, but that's it, they were the exception, not the common
    now it is the common to get a boost to be able to get to raiding guild, not the reverse, u are expected to get ahead of curve from week 2 at most, and have higher ilvl from raid if u want to pug from week 3, assume u can find a pug in first place (or even if u create one, find ppl who will join)
    and seriously the fact that the top classic raiding guild on official server said they leaving classic because the old experience is ruined and they flat out said that now all are about buying and selling boosts and nothing else seal that deal, we talk about ppl who played classic at its release, stayed in private servers for 16 years, played on official only to find it fucked by boosts and leaving it because they are fed (and they probably will be back to private, of course they can't type that officially), what more proof u want?
    Ask any old player if they found boost selling 24/7 pre-token era as much as now, i don't claim there was none, heck i admit i did one, but i strongly confirm that they were way less pre-token
    That might be your take on it but I disagree. Take arena's back in 2007 for example, boosting was extremely common for gold, and you think everyone got their gold through legitimate ways? If so you're naïve.

    Boosting has been rampant in WoW since forever.

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  17. #2117
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    yes and they were all illegal hence why they weren't introduced as much as now
    i know someone in classic who bought gold to get his mount, and heard of someone who bought boost for T2, but that's it, they were the exception, not the common
    now it is the common to get a boost to be able to get to raiding guild, not the reverse, u are expected to get ahead of curve from week 2 at most, and have higher ilvl from raid if u want to pug from week 3, assume u can find a pug in first place (or even if u create one, find ppl who will join)
    and seriously the fact that the top classic raiding guild on official server said they leaving classic because the old experience is ruined and they flat out said that now all are about buying and selling boosts and nothing else seal that deal, we talk about ppl who played classic at its release, stayed in private servers for 16 years, played on official only to find it fucked by boosts and leaving it because they are fed (and they probably will be back to private, of course they can't type that officially), what more proof u want?
    Ask any old player if they found boost selling 24/7 pre-token era as much as now, i don't claim there was none, heck i admit i did one, but i strongly confirm that they were way less pre-token
    Less visible before token, but there were a lot before token anyways. As an old player from day one, and a raider designated up until mid-Legion, I saw boost advertisements and groups gathering daily, even a few of my old raiders have experienced attempts of "renting" them to help with boosting for gold, or even RMT, luckily they said no. Boosting was 24.7, though, in honestly, the most boosts I saw for sale was during the night/early morning, I take it for less chance to be reported by players. reported a huge chunk myself. They were less visible, but now you have so many people making their own boosting groups that the market is flooded.

    The only thing the Token did was to make it safer, easier and accepted to get boosted. The problem lies in the boosting community, who is wanting more, so they'll of course keep theirs running - and some, like Gallywix, fucks it up, but Blizzard does take action on that. We've seen many forum complaints across different forums when Gallywix was taken out, as well as when boost sellers were using a secondary account for the boosting advertisement and taking the payment - and it is a bliss to see them rage every time.

    Now, we have two instances of items they could perceive as P2W, the Token and the Boost (Catch-up), which does not really turn the game P2W but they can both be seen as problematic but both are there as a lesser evil to a problem. One helps to handle the flood of RMT gold sales by making it easier and safer, and the other is there to give new players, or rugged veterans, a quicker way to get to the main content. Both offer you an advantage above a brand new player, but then, having played the game for a long time does so too, or have managed to sell on the auction before others (the big BoE sales war (Coming with new raid starts) does give you an advantage too.

    But as I've said before, the Token can easily be compared with the TCG (BoE) cards, both items sold with the blessing of Blizzard, both made to be traded for gold even though purchased for real money, both offering a pile of gold in your hand, one is just a bit more safe and controlled, it is game-time for gold, both win. One can play the game, another can get what they want from other players. I can't get myself to compare gold from Token sales to that of currency bought in a store, that can only be used on services made by the company in the first place. For me, the token is minor because it still demands you to take it up with yourself what to use the gold on, and cooperate with other players to get a service (some might need the gold, or some might be from a boosting community). Unlike many obvious P2W games where you buy a buff on the store or buy a currency to buy a buff on a special store.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerph- View Post
    That might be your take on it but I disagree. Take arena's back in 2007 for example, boosting was extremely common for gold, and you think everyone got their gold through legitimate ways? If so you're naïve.

    Boosting has been rampant in WoW since forever.
    Oh lord, don't remind me. Luckily, I wasn't much of an Arena person but yes, the Arena sales too, were horrible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    You dont have them cheaper. Players do not have enough gold so boost sellers do no waste time boosting becouse time vs gold earn isnt worth the effort.
    But you do have them cheaper? There is no Token interaction on Classic, so of course, gold aren't as inflated, and people just try and set a price to make customers interested in a run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    Oh and btw i just did some digging and find out that you are one of the boost sellers. So i am dont talking to you since you are biased as you have agenda when comes to boosting so your opinion on this matter is completly useless.
    Excuse me? What "proof" did you find to make you believe that I am a boost seller? Do humor me? Something I've forgotten? I've admitted to offering boosts but not to take payment of the class we're talking about.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  18. #2118
    WoW is not directly p2w.
    Indirectly, one can make an argument that WoW has a p2w flavor, which is partly a consequence of the token and boosting culture. There is no single variable that drives the outcomes we see.

  19. #2119
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by |Dexter| View Post
    If you pay the right boosters you can be on top of the PVE and PVPers lists so in one way it is...
    No. You literally cannot. Boosters get you to their level at the absolute most.

    There is nothing at all in WoW that you can get by buying tokens that will put you above everyone else that doesn't. WoW is pay to catchup, at best.

    Neverwinter Online: Buy stat stick and ability granting companion pets from the store that are explicitly better than anything any none paying player can farm or craft themselves in a reasonable timeframe (if an equivalent companion pet even exists.) No other players are required.

    Star Trek Online: Buy ships and crew members that are explicitly better than anything any none paying player can farm themselves in a reasonable timeframe if at all. No other players are required.
    They are pay to win.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  20. #2120
    You can get much in this game with money, but I doubt that you can get top gladiator ranks or world first mythic raid kills.
    You need skill and TIME (and the possibility to allocate said time in the most convenient manner for the game, not your RL).

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