1. #2161
    Stealthed Defender unbound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotGeorgia View Post
    look it up-"in online gaming, the practice of buying in-game items that give a player a very big advantage over others"[COLOR=#242424][FONT=Arial]
    I did look it up, and found this:

    "PTW is used in gaming with the meaning "Pay to Win" to refer to games that allow players to purchase items or abilities (e.g., more powerful weapons, additional health points) that give them an advantage in the game, either over other players or NPCs (Non-Player Characters)."

    Notice that this just says "advantage" not "a very big advantage".

    Found another definition that says:

    "Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying."

    In fact, I wasn't able to find a definition that says or hints at "a very big advantage". So, at a minimum, that emphasis seems to be in the minority of definitions.

    [QUOTE=NotGeorgia;53394817]...
    Buying WoW tokens that other players buy from you with real gold for game-time isn't an advantage over people in the game.
    .../QUOTE]

    So, the ability to buy gold actually fits most definitions of P2W; counter to your statement here. You can gear out a brand new toon with better gear than people who spend significant time grinding for that same gear.

    So, specific to WoW, there are players who can get to an ilvl that will be accepted in groups simply by purchasing that token, covert it to gold, and buy really good gear. Contrasted with people who can't get into those same groups regardless of their skill level simply because they haven't been able to grind that gear, or grind the gold to buy such gear, or have simply gotten unlucky with drops.

    Personally, I would call it pay to progress (i.e. paying to progress more rapidly than you can by spending time in the game). But regardless of how you want to argue definitions, once Blizz started selling tokens, you can't claim that WoW doesn't sell advantages for $$$.

  2. #2162
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensei View Post
    I think step 4 is where they get their ass handed to them because despite having nice gear they are still garbage players with no skill. Pay to win indeed.
    By that logic, selling full Mythic achievements/raid sets in the shop wouldn't be P2W either, because bad players buying that stuff would still be bad players.

    Do you honestly read what you are typing?
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  3. #2163
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    No it isn't pay to win.

    At most it is pay to catch up. In absolutely NO way is buying a boost putting you ahead of everyone else that doesn't which is the definitive requirement for it being a true pay to win game. In buying a boost, you are REQUIRED to use other people who can actually traverse the content. The only way buying a boost or a token would be pay to win is if nobody else is required to get you the gear.

    Pay to win is Neverwinter, where buying gear is not only completely possible but allows you to absolutely outgear everyone that doesn't pay.
    I feel like tons of people on this forum are warping traditional definitions of p2w because they love wow. Which is fine. But there are definitely games that sell boosts to xp/gear chance/daily quest completions etc... that have been lambasted by this SAME COMMUNITY for being P2W. The New World shop "fiasco" is a great recent example. People playing WoW calling it p2w while tolerating what's essentially the same thing in their game under a different disguise.

    Personally, I have no stake in this. I don't mind people who have time gearing that way and people who have $$ but not time gearing a different way. As this poster I quoted stated, it's not like you *have* to pay. You can achieve everything people who pay can achieve, if you have the requisite time and skill.

    I don't mind that. But what I do mind is the clear double standard/cognitive dissonance that goes on around these discussions lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    You are wasting your calories by typing, these guys are clueless and defaulted opinions that everything is P2W, because WoW apparently has a win nowdays

    What do you mean nowadays? Since BC, there have been logs and ranking systems for individuals and guilds. For guilds, it's always been based on progression. "Which bosses did you kill, and at what speed did you do them." Since wrath, there has been a world first race, and a top 100 guild culture. There has been a gear system in which one can have and acquire more gear than others, and it is tracked.

    Of course you can "win." And it isn't nowadays. You could win since some of the earliest versions of this game. Just because *YOU* might not care or define it as winning doesn't mean you can't win. And the supposition that it's somehow a recent phenomenon is... absurd.

    We've literally had tournaments and championships for longer than we haven't. In PvE *and* PvP. We've had challenge modes and achievements for longer than we haven't at this point. And we track who does those things, how fast they do them, etc. That, by its very nature, makes it competitive. And there is a reward for achieving these things, whether it be in-game rewards that you can collect, or notoriety (E.g. Method's players or Venruki).

  4. #2164
    You could make the argument that the wow token is p2w because you can use it to buy a boost.

    But that's nowhere near as egregious as some eastern MMO's like BDO, or on private servers where you can buy items like shadowmourne for real cash.

  5. #2165
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Yes then again it always was. Nowadays though it's just more blatantly pay to win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    You could make the argument that the wow token is p2w because you can use it to buy a boost.

    But that's nowhere near as egregious as some eastern MMO's like BDO, or on private servers where you can buy items like shadowmourne for real cash.
    Stop trying to reason away bad development.

  6. #2166
    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Yes then again it always was. Nowadays though it's just more blatantly pay to win.

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    Stop trying to reason away bad development.
    All i'm saying is there's nuances to "p2W"

  7. #2167
    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    You could make the argument that the wow token is p2w because you can use it to buy a boost.

    But that's nowhere near as egregious as some eastern MMO's like BDO, or on private servers where you can buy items like shadowmourne for real cash.
    So long as I can *also* acquire shadowmourne the normal way, what's the difference?

    If I pay a group of 19 people $$$ to get me shadowmourne vs just buying it from a shop... what's the difference, really?

    In both cases, I'm spending $$ to get the same outcome. This is the line I don't really understand.

    So long as you're not removing the traditional way to get shadowmourne so that someone who wants it can just do it through time/skill, I don't really get the difference between using $$ to buy the carry and just using $$ to buy the item.

    It's like "technically" different, but not functionally

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    All i'm saying is there's nuances to "p2W"
    I mean again I hear you that they're 'technically different,' and that there are levels to this... but I'm not sure they're *functionally* different

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    Quote Originally Posted by Depakote View Post
    Yes then again it always was. Nowadays though it's just more blatantly pay to win.

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    Stop trying to reason away bad development.
    Boosting before the token with gold wasn't p2w simply because gold was an in-game currency. Yes, people bought gold with $$ illegally, but that wasn't blizzard sanctioned and a core part of the game design/intent. They banned people for doing this.

    The token itself is what makes it p2w

  8. #2168
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendrith View Post
    So long as I can *also* acquire shadowmourne the normal way, what's the difference?

    If I pay a group of 19 people $$$ to get me shadowmourne vs just buying it from a shop... what's the difference, really?

    In both cases, I'm spending $$ to get the same outcome. This is the line I don't really understand.

    So long as you're not removing the traditional way to get shadowmourne so that someone who wants it can just do it through time/skill, I don't really get the difference between using $$ to buy the carry and just using $$ to buy the item.

    It's like "technically" different, but not functionally
    They're different because it was still done by players ingame, and not generated by some GM.

  9. #2169
    Brewmaster Depakote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fendrith View Post
    So long as I can *also* acquire shadowmourne the normal way, what's the difference?

    If I pay a group of 19 people $$$ to get me shadowmourne vs just buying it from a shop... what's the difference, really?

    In both cases, I'm spending $$ to get the same outcome. This is the line I don't really understand.

    So long as you're not removing the traditional way to get shadowmourne so that someone who wants it can just do it through time/skill, I don't really get the difference between using $$ to buy the carry and just using $$ to buy the item.

    It's like "technically" different, but not functionally

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    I mean again I hear you that they're 'technically different,' and that there are levels to this... but I'm not sure they're *functionally* different

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    Boosting before the token with gold wasn't p2w simply because gold was an in-game currency. Yes, people bought gold with $$ illegally, but that wasn't blizzard sanctioned and a core part of the game design/intent. They banned people for doing this.

    The token itself is what makes it p2w
    That's what i mean by now it's more blatantly pay to win.

  10. #2170
    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    They're different because it was still done by players ingame, and not generated by some GM.
    Right, but why does that actually matter? Because other people still have to play in order to acquire it, so it's healthier for the game? Or what?

    Like I'm clearly aware that they're different lol

  11. #2171
    Most games are pay to win now.

    I baught the new smash brothers game at Christmas and paid my buddies kid to unlock all the characters for me.

    I really wish Nintendo would get their shit together.
    Pay to win is not fun.

  12. #2172
    Pandaren Monk Nalam the Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Would a mobile game where you can purchase character ranks, with real money, be classified Pay-to-Win? Let's say they even cap you, on a daily or weekly basis, the amount of progress you can achieve.
    I don't consider any thing "P2W"

    So i'm not really the correct person to ask this.

    Maby someone else could give a better answer

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  13. #2173
    I wonder how many posters in this thread sell their tokens to buy boosts and are actively engaged in this thread on a self convincing debate with themselves about the topic in this thread. For the rest of us it's pretty clear

  14. #2174
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzunami View Post
    Most games are pay to win now.

    I baught the new smash brothers game at Christmas and paid my buddies kid to unlock all the characters for me.

    I really wish Nintendo would get their shit together.
    Pay to win is not fun.
    See this is what I'm talking about. Like so many people clearly miss the point of this discussion because they're either not following it or have logical gaps. It makes it impossible to talk about.

    Obviously no one thinks p2w involves the use of money to pay people to do things for you OUTSIDE OF WHAT THE GAME WOULD NORMALLY ALLOW OR ENABLE. Smash brothers doesn't have an in game token that lets you get game currency for real dollars.

    Yes, by your logic, every game is p2w because I can technically pay anyone to do game stuff for me. But that's like obviously not the point of the discussion and obviously not what people are talking about.

  15. #2175
    Fairness between players is literally the least of Blizzards concerns, lol. And who cares about microtransactions, blame capitalism for ruining your favorite games if it rustles your jimmies so much.

    We have WoW Tokens because Blizzard realized there was nothing they could do to stop RMT. RMT is bad, not because it is cheating, but because it means there's someone out there profiting from their game, and Blizzard's legal department are too well funded to allow that to happen.
    Last edited by choom; 2021-09-27 at 02:44 PM.

  16. #2176
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendrith View Post
    Right, but why does that actually matter? Because other people still have to play in order to acquire it, so it's healthier for the game? Or what?

    Like I'm clearly aware that they're different lol
    It matters because players care.

  17. #2177
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I buy gold for WoW tokens that I use to buy gear from raid boosts. It's P2W and I'm fine with it, I have more money left over than I have time
    Right, you really have that advantage after raids are cleared a d thise items are for sale and then you mount your race to win. No one is getting a competitive advantage by waiting weeks and weeks to get the handful of BoEs from raids.

  18. #2178
    I'll say it again, since it appears to be unclear: the token itself, since it is provided by blizzard directly within the parameters of what the game allows, makes wow pay to win.

    It is not the sale of boosts for gold, nor is it the illegal (meaning against Terms of Service) sale of boosts for cash, that makes wow p2w.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Demsi View Post
    It matters because players care.
    Yes, thank you. Extremely helpful. Let me be more clear: I'm asking YOU, a player, why YOU care. What difference does it make to YOU. I understand that players care - I'm not an idiot - you're clearly a player, and you clearly care. What I'm saying is I don't understand *why* you care, and since you do, I'm asking you to explain it to me.

    Telling me the obvious - they are technically different, and that matters to you - isn't particularly helpful, as I wouldn't be asking my questions if I wasn't already aware of those basics. I'm like actively trying to understand your perspective here lol

  19. #2179
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    You can do the same using gold earned entirely in game, by having friends in the guild or being good at playing.
    Maybe if you're poor, rich people just buy the gold from g2g.

  20. #2180
    Quote Originally Posted by Fendrith View Post
    I'll say it again, since it appears to be unclear: the token itself, since it is provided by blizzard directly within the parameters of what the game allows, makes wow pay to win.

    It is not the sale of boosts for gold, nor is it the illegal (meaning against Terms of Service) sale of boosts for cash, that makes wow p2w.
    It's fine. Those who have lots of money but no time can buy their gear with real money from those with little money but lots of time.
    It's the only way for a casual player to get good gear really, it's not like in FFXIV where you can buy the best gear in the fame with badges.

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