1. #2181
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Which is completely fine. I mean, their systems, their products. Don't like the products, then don't buy them. It is common in business like so.
    Just to be clear, yes, I agree 100%. That was the intention of my post, however it may have been lost in translation, so to speak.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhrrngt View Post
    Its really weird so many people are confused about such a simple concept of what pay to win means.

    Pay to Win literally means paying to win......
    Ironic, considering how completely wrong this statement is. P2W "literally" means using real world money to gain an ADVANTAGE. This is commonly accepted and not even up for debate.

    Lets use your "definition" for a moment to explain how entirely ridiculous it is. I log into wow on day 1 of SL release, and make the following purchases:

    Level 60 boost
    Full mythic raid BiS
    Full bis pvp gear
    Gold Cap
    All mounts
    All Pets
    All professions maxed out

    All for $5,000.

    According to you, this does NOT qualify as Pay to Win.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-22 at 09:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  2. #2182
    Tell me on day 1 of release how you are going to get Full mythic BIS from buying? You won't be able to buy anything until people can farm it, by then you are just buying your way to not even equal everyone because drops don't work that way. So this scenario can't even happen in the game. lol Tell me on day one how you can buy full BIS pvp? By the time you can buy BIS pvp from someone carrying you other people will also be geared. So again you are not paying to win. People you would compete with would be on the same gear level as you as well. And you would still lose because obviously you can't get there yourself.

    You have ZERO advantage over someone who just plays the game. In the time it took you to BUY those carries, someone else could have JUST PLAYED THE EXACT SAME RAID AS YOU WITHOUT BUYING ANYTHING AND GOT THE SAME EXACT ILVL AS YOU. YOU HAVE NO ADVANTAGE. Even for BoEs on the market board, THEY DONT JUST APPEAR, someone had to FARM THEM. MEANING!!!! By the time they are on the AH someone ALREADY HAS FARMED THE RAID ENOUGH. WHERE THAT PIECE OF GEAR IS NOT AN UPGRADE. Therefore YOU are not PAYING TO WIN.

    Paying to Win is using REAL WORLD MONEY, to have an ADVANTAGE over others who DO NOT USE real world money. Using real world money to EXCHANGE for IN GAME CURRENCY EASILY obtainable in game. IS NOT PAYING TO WIN!!! Jeeze. People who afk farmed Garrisons back in the day that have gold cap are on the same level as you. They didn't spend diddly. Do you not get that? and since ilvl resets every patch many people will have the gold to buy these items and NEVER spent real world money.

    The scenario you gave is not possible, therefore it is not WoW, therefore WoW is not pay to win. Like come on.

    Using your logic every game is pay to win because I can illegally buy an account, or I can pay my toddler to farm gold for me.

  3. #2183
    How is it not p2w? With gold you can get access to better gear, better progression and scores and get ahead of many people. With better gear you can do more dps and gain access to better guild and get the ball rolling too. With better scores you can get into better M+ groups. With all these you are gaining an advantage and winning for sure. The argument that you have to be world top 10 paying for all these to be considered as winning is stupidly lame. It's like arguing having more money does not gain you an advantage in life in any form over your poorer counterparts because you are not Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos. Fanboys here are hilarious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    Biden is a creepy old dude, I will not be voting for the guy.
    ^ This is from a self-proclaimed Trump-hater who goes round vote-policing, berating and insulting other users for expressing their doubts and reservations about Joe Biden. He also urges others to end relationships and friendships just to "vote Trump out". https://ibb.co/2jRnZGC He can't seem to walk the talk himself.

  4. #2184
    Quote Originally Posted by rhrrngt View Post
    snip
    Im guessing you are trying to reply to me? You presented a definition of P2W that stated "pay to win literally means to win". This is completely false, and i presented a hypothetical scenario to you explaining very clearly why this definition is wrong. In that hypothetical scenario a player purchased everything listed, directly from Blizzard, using their credit card, to a cost of $5000. Using your definition, this does not equal pay to win. I used this example to try and explain to you in very simple terms why your definition does not work, and why no one uses that definition. You are just confused, P2W does NOT require "winning".

    Go back and read it again, its very, VERY clear and simple. You are driving me up the wall here! which is strange, because you are not driving a vehicle, and there is no wall involved.............interesting, right?

    You know when you shoot the moon, you dont actually fire anything at the moon?
    You know many, MANY phrases have a meaning that does not perfectly align with the literal meanings of each word used to form that phrase? Its important to me that you know this.

    FYI in both of your examples at the bottom, you have breached the rules of the game - account sharing, and purchasing accounts, so you will need to try again there sorry.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-23 at 02:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  5. #2185
    Brewmaster khazmodan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usernameforforums View Post
    WoW is only P2W if you suck. You can achieve everything with effort with no extra payment required.
    I agree with you on some people but some people are excellent players that are also very willing to cheat to get caught up on gear to either compete or play with friends. I'm not defending these people, I'm simply saying that those people are out there and my old boss would be in that category as somebody that can raid mythic but is also willing to buy gold, top level boe items, or whatever it takes to stay competitive.

    The question is; how do you keep these people playing the game but not destroy the pride of achievement of gearing up in high level content for those that are playing honest?

  6. #2186
    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    I agree with you on some people but some people are excellent players that are also very willing to cheat to get caught up on gear to either compete or play with friends. I'm not defending these people, I'm simply saying that those people are out there and my old boss would be in that category as somebody that can raid mythic but is also willing to buy gold, top level boe items, or whatever it takes to stay competitive.

    The question is; how do you keep these people playing the game but not destroy the pride of achievement of gearing up in high level content for those that are playing honest?
    The real question is, why you call it "cheating"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  7. #2187
    Brewmaster khazmodan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The real question is, why you call it "cheating"?
    If somebody wears a military uniform and they were never in the military...

  8. #2188
    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    If somebody wears a military uniform and they were never in the military...
    What on earth are you talking about? First off, you mean like an actor? or a reenactor? Or hobbyist/paintball/airsoft? But far more importantly....................what are you talking about the military for? what on earth does that have to do with "cheating"?

    Either i am missing something here, or, this is without a doubt the worst analogy I have seen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  9. #2189
    Brewmaster khazmodan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What on earth are you talking about? First off, you mean like an actor? or a reenactor? Or hobbyist/paintball/airsoft? But far more importantly....................what are you talking about the military for? what on earth does that have to do with "cheating"?

    Either i am missing something here, or, this is without a doubt the worst analogy I have seen.
    If you pay for somebody to carry you to Gladiator while you sometimes afk, for the gear, mount and title then that is cheating.

  10. #2190
    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    If you pay for somebody to carry you to Gladiator while you sometimes afk, for the gear, mount and title then that is cheating.
    No, it isn't. You might not agree with it, but it absolutely is not cheating. If that person then goes around claiming they earned it themselves, that could come under dishonesty, but it is completely within the rules, and countless people who "earned" their gear were the weakest link and got, to some extent, carried. We have ALL raided with that one person who doesn't really deserve to be there, and performs a difficulty below everyone else, but no gold changes hands, so its "fine". What about someone who goes back and earns the gear for transmog soloing the raid? Are they "cheating" by using it an expansion later?

    tldr you are confusing "i don't agree with people who play this way" with "playing this way is cheating", and i still fail to see how your analogy works here at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  11. #2191
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Im guessing you are trying to reply to me? You presented a definition of P2W that stated "pay to win literally means to win". This is completely false, and i presented a hypothetical scenario to you explaining very clearly why this definition is wrong. In that hypothetical scenario a player purchased everything listed, directly from Blizzard, using their credit card, to a cost of $5000. Using your definition, this does not equal pay to win. I used this example to try and explain to you in very simple terms why your definition does not work, and why no one uses that definition. You are just confused, P2W does NOT require "winning".

    Go back and read it again, its very, VERY clear and simple. You are driving me up the wall here! which is strange, because you are not driving a vehicle, and there is no wall involved.............interesting, right?

    You know when you shoot the moon, you dont actually fire anything at the moon?
    You know many, MANY phrases have a meaning that does not perfectly align with the literal meanings of each word used to form that phrase? Its important to me that you know this.

    FYI in both of your examples at the bottom, you have breached the rules of the game - account sharing, and purchasing accounts, so you will need to try again there sorry.
    Your hypothetical explanation you gave was someone being able to outgear everyone early right off the bat which would be pay to win because they havent had the ability to do so. Because you could go into pvp with an ilvl of say 505 and everyone has 460 for two weeks. In the actual game this can never happen which is what I so plainly explained to you. The time it takes you to buy wins someone else could just simply win without buying therefore you have zero advantage with money. The only advantage you get is not actually playing the game you pay for. Do you not get that simple concept? Everything you pay for someone else can simply do without paying. How is this hard for you to comprehend. That is not pay to win. Pay to win is PAYING to win. Meaning PAYING for things people CANNOT GET without paying. IE ilvl 540 gear is 20 bucks on the blizzard store but mythic only drops ilvl 480, or ilvl 540 is on the blizzard store a month before it drops in mythic raiding. Not you buying 445 gear when the mythic plus u could have done also drops 445 gear. Not you paying for pvp boosts when someone else can just pvp for the same gear....or even have a friend carry them for free. In WoW using gold to buy crap does not put you AHEAD of other people. It just allows you to be equal with people. For those BoEs to be on the AH someone has to not want them. For someone to carry you they have to already be ahead of you. Do you not get that?

  12. #2192
    Quote Originally Posted by rhrrngt View Post
    Your hypothetical explanation you gave was someone being able to outgear everyone early right off the bat which would be pay to win because they havent had the ability to do so. Because you could go into pvp with an ilvl of say 505 and everyone has 460 for two weeks. In the actual game this can never happen which is what I so plainly explained to you. The time it takes you to buy wins someone else could just simply win without buying therefore you have zero advantage with money. The only advantage you get is not actually playing the game you pay for. Do you not get that simple concept? Everything you pay for someone else can simply do without paying. How is this hard for you to comprehend. That is not pay to win. Pay to win is PAYING to win. Meaning PAYING for things people CANNOT GET without paying. IE ilvl 540 gear is 20 bucks on the blizzard store but mythic only drops ilvl 480, or ilvl 540 is on the blizzard store a month before it drops in mythic raiding. Not you buying 445 gear when the mythic plus u could have done also drops 445 gear. Not you paying for pvp boosts when someone else can just pvp for the same gear....or even have a friend carry them for free. In WoW using gold to buy crap does not put you AHEAD of other people. It just allows you to be equal with people. For those BoEs to be on the AH someone has to not want them. For someone to carry you they have to already be ahead of you. Do you not get that?
    Great story! Now how does it help a solo raider "win"?

    Why has your definition changed so dramatically in 2 posts? Now, not only do you need to "win" but other players cannot have access to the same stuff in game? That wasnt part of your "this is so simple" definition.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-24 at 08:26 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  13. #2193
    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    If you pay for somebody to carry you to Gladiator while you sometimes afk, for the gear, mount and title then that is cheating.
    And can be easily done thanks to the easy gold from Tokens. You Pay Cash = You Win = Pay to Win.

  14. #2194
    I still think people realistically need to decide what is the standard definition of P2W. Because a lot of the arguments I've seen would mean that WoW is P2W even if tokens were not a thing.

    If thats the case -- then WoW has always been a P2W game because RMT has existed prior to the token's conception. Legality has never been part of that argument.
    Last edited by TidalConflux; 2021-06-25 at 08:10 PM.

  15. #2195
    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    I still think people realistically need to decide what is the standard definition of P2W. Because a lot of the arguments I've seen would mean that WoW is P2W even if tokens were not a thing.

    If thats the case -- then WoW has always been a P2W game because RMT has existed prior to the token's conception. Legality has never been part of that argument.
    I used this definition:
    A pay-to-win model is one where transactions made with real money give you access to gameplay advantages, which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself.

    In resume:
    - Tokens Gold
    - Boosts

  16. #2196
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    I used this definition:A pay-to-win model is one where transactions made with real money give you access to gameplay advantages, which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself.
    You can equal, or counter act, everything that a token gives with reasonable but not excessive amount of effort. So your definition literally states that WoW is not pay to win. This was covered the first time you brought this specific definition up and is why you quickly abandoned it. Stop reverting to things that don't even support your own stance.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #2197
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You can equal, or counter act, everything that a token gives with reasonable but not excessive amount of effort. So your definition literally states that WoW is not pay to win. This was covered the first time you brought this specific definition up and is why you quickly abandoned it. Stop reverting to things that don't even support your own stance.
    Point 1: Wrong. Boost/Tokens = P2W.
    Point 2: I never abandoned it. This definition is super valid for Tokens/Boosts.
    Point 3: It support my stance on Tokens/Boosts.
    Last edited by Necrosaro123; 2021-06-25 at 08:52 PM.

  18. #2198
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Point 1: Wrong. Boost/Tokens = P2W.
    Point 2: I never abandoned. This definition is super valid for Tokens/Boosts.
    Point 3: It support my stance on Tokens/Boosts.
    If it is wrong then your definition given is wrong. Did you actually read the definition you gave? What do tokens give that can't be gained through playing the game? Everything a token gives is equaled through playing the game. The fact you don't even address the part that goes against your claim shows how you've already abandoned it again.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #2199
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If it is wrong then your definition given is wrong. Did you actually read the definition you gave? What do tokens give that can't be gained through playing the game? Everything a token gives is equaled through playing the game. The fact you don't even address the part that goes against your claim shows how you've already abandoned it again.
    A pay-to-win model is one where transactions made with real money give you access to gameplay advantages = Token gives you gold.

    , which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself. = You dont have to farm it, is instantly given to you without effort. Just pay cash, get gold = Win.

  20. #2200
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    , which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself. = You dont have to farm it, is instantly given to you without effort. Just pay cash, get gold = Win.
    Can you join a group and get loot with reasonable but not excessive effort? If it takes excessive effort to get gold how did others get it in order to provide it for a token? You don't just pay cash and get gold. You still have a fundamental lack of knowledge in how the token works. It requires a person to provide the gold to you. So you can pay cash and get no gold.

    Despite your lengthy arguments having gold is not winning at anything.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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