1. #2521
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Doesn't matter, it does not prevent those people from "gaining advantage".
    If you follow that road then either all games are P2W or none is.

  2. #2522
    Quote Originally Posted by BattleHammer View Post
    If you follow that road then either all games are P2W or none is.
    No, it simply means your definition is flawed at its core.

    Which is why definitions that include clause saying its otherwise unobtainable or unobtainable within reasonable amount of time are more accurate.

    Like P2W mobile games that technically give you possibility to obtain everything but without paying it may take a year.
    Or P2W mobile games that straight up not have the possibility to make up in any possible way except for money.
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  3. #2523
    Quote Originally Posted by BattleHammer View Post
    Back to square one, you can get advantages from buying gold/boosts, they way to a "victory" between 2 parts is through some sort of advantage, then the "win" is the end while "means" is the discussion, if you can get an advantageous "mean" through money, how is that not p2w?

    BTW Keep your adjectives, there no need for them.
    They're not "advantages". You're just using an alternate means of obtaining something. You could buy an AOTC with money. Some say that's an advantage. I say its a disadvantage because its boring.

    Furthermore, the ends you're describing aren't "wins". You keep on misusing the term to make a bogus point.

    Here's an example of actual P2W. I play Star Trek Timelines. There are actual weekly events played against other players where paying real money confers a distinct advantage. The game works by using particular characters to accomplish tasks. Usually there are two new characters per event and there's an option to buy them directly before the event begins. Its advantageous to do so although its not unheard of for F2P players to occasionally win an event. The events are heavy, heavy time sinks even if you spend a lot of money. The F2P is going to have to spend more time playing the event and will not be able to repeat that win for at least a few months.

    There's one additional element that makes this P2W. There's a tiered achievement system within the game called Crew Collections. Filling out a tier gives a permanent statistic bonus. Even after 5 years its not possible for a F2P player to have completed all of the game's collections. Its a permanent advantage that has no equivalent in WoW and playing the game more often won't help you fill the collection faster.

    I could see the P2W argument working in WoW if a F2P game system like achievements were to have a permanent bonus attached to it. In this case spending money would allow you to obtain achievements faster. I can't really see this happening and until then all your money is just being used to obtain decorations.

  4. #2524
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I buy gold for WoW tokens that I use to buy gear from raid boosts. It's P2W and I'm fine with it, I have more money left over than I have time
    thats not pay to win. idc how people try to spin it but its completely different from what pay 2 win actually is. p2w means having a store where you could buy gear that is better than what is available in game when it comes to MMOs. nothing you're doing with your token/gold is different than what people have been doing for many years with just gold. its just an easier way to get gold is all

  5. #2525
    You can buy the best gear in the game with real money legally. That's the definition of P2W

  6. #2526
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    You can buy the best gear in the game with real money legally. That's the definition of P2W
    You can? How? I must've missed that vendor that would sell me a full 252 ilevel haste/versatility set with sockets. Can you show me where it is?

  7. #2527
    The sort of mental hoops some people are willing to go through to defend blatant P2W mechanics is sort of next generation of astounding. I doubt there is enough mechanical computing power in the world to compete in the scale that is required to come up with these excuses.
    Modern gaming apologist: I once tasted diarrhea so shit is fine.

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  8. #2528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    You can buy the best gear in the game with real money legally. That's the definition of P2W
    No, you cannot buy the best gear legally with RMT. You cannot buy ANY gear via RMT legally as that would constitute breach of contract on your part since it is part of the EULA you agree to in order to play the game. The game is Pay 2 Play, not Pay 2 Win.
    when all else fails, read the STICKIES.

  9. #2529
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilian View Post
    The sort of mental hoops some people are willing to go through to defend blatant P2W mechanics is sort of next generation of astounding. I doubt there is enough mechanical computing power in the world to compete in the scale that is required to come up with these excuses.
    Yup. 127 pages of people refusing to admit it's p2w but when any other game does the same exact shit WoW is doing, suddenly THOSE games are p2w. The hypocrisy is staggering.

  10. #2530
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Doesn't matter, it does not prevent those people from "gaining advantage".
    Yes it does matter lol because the games maker isnt selling the gold to the player. Thats a fundamental misunderstanding on your part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodykiller86 View Post
    thats not pay to win. idc how people try to spin it but its completely different from what pay 2 win actually is. p2w means having a store where you could buy gear that is better than what is available in game when it comes to MMOs. nothing you're doing with your token/gold is different than what people have been doing for many years with just gold. its just an easier way to get gold is all
    Youre paying real money for an advantage, be it a level boost or gold. If you spend real money on either, you gain an advantage against those who dont.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  11. #2531
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    Quote Originally Posted by BattleHammer View Post
    Finally the point is: between 2 equal players (skill, time spent playing, etc) can 1 of them get an advantage over the other via RMT endorsed by blizzard? Yes. There's your answer.
    A slight itch that has to be scratched as you add in something in the mixture that'll actually spoil the concoction.

    You may keep on your arguments with others but there is just a false statement in your phrase, and I know you'll get angry, and others have too but... Blizzard does not endorse RMT, at all. You are not doing RMT. I know you are buying game-time from Blizzard with real money, but RMT would be the next stage, but at the next stage, you are standing with a game-time token, an in-game item you cannot even trade with people, you throw it into the pile of tokens governed by Blizzard, and sold at a price.

    If they were endorsing RMTs, then gold sellers would be all over your wallet as they wouldn't need to hide, and boosters for money would be more forward once more (luckily, they hide in the shadows, and are more minimal than they used to be).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Yup. 127 pages of people refusing to admit it's p2w but when any other game does the same exact shit WoW is doing, suddenly THOSE games are p2w. The hypocrisy is staggering.
    Someone had a good point some 10-20 pages back. WoW isn't P2W but it has P2W features due to the boost and token, it is not as close to P2W registration as some other games.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  12. #2532
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Someone had a good point some 10-20 pages back. WoW isn't P2W but it has P2W features due to the boost and token, it is not as close to P2W registration as some other games.
    It's P2W with an extra step. The end result is the same.

  13. #2533
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    A slight itch that has to be scratched as you add in something in the mixture that'll actually spoil the concoction.

    You may keep on your arguments with others but there is just a false statement in your phrase, and I know you'll get angry, and others have too but... Blizzard does not endorse RMT, at all. You are not doing RMT. I know you are buying game-time from Blizzard with real money, but RMT would be the next stage, but at the next stage, you are standing with a game-time token, an in-game item you cannot even trade with people, you throw it into the pile of tokens governed by Blizzard, and sold at a price.

    If they were endorsing RMTs, then gold sellers would be all over your wallet as they wouldn't need to hide, and boosters for money would be more forward once more (luckily, they hide in the shadows, and are more minimal than they used to be).

    - - - Updated - - -



    Someone had a good point some 10-20 pages back. WoW isn't P2W but it has P2W features due to the boost and token, it is not as close to P2W registration as some other games.
    By that logic, there are no p2w games in existence. There just games with p2w features which is nothing but avoiding calling WoW p2w as I initially said.

  14. #2534
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Someone had a good point some 10-20 pages back. WoW isn't P2W but it has P2W features due to the boost and token, it is not as close to P2W registration as some other games.
    Either myself or someone saying the same thing - for me personally, to consider a game to be P2W it needs to be built around rather egregious P2W features, and depends on things like payment model and general design decisions. But many, MANY games have P2W features, and it often doesn't bother me much if at all. I keep using this example over and over again, but i consider the Classic TBC boost to be a perfect example of a feature that is clearly an example of a P2W feature, but that by itself does not make me consider the GAME a P2W game. It clearly can give players an advantage over those not willing or able to pay for it, but it has restrictions, such as a single use, and doesnt take you straight to endgame. I also firmly believe it was good for the overall health of the game, opening the door to a lot of people who were very keen to have a crack at TBC, but had no interest in Classic Vanilla.

  15. #2535
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    False. It either is, or isnt.



    Also false. By your definition nearly nothing would be p2w.

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    Paying for an advantage is what makes games p2w. "Win" is not literal, if it were, almost zero games would be p2w. P2w is when you can buy gameplay advantages for real money from the games maker.

    Did you ignore my last post because it pretty much dismantles your argument?
    P2W isn't in the dictionary it's not a real word it's a term people have coined and therefore has no true definition and I was using my original point to show that people have different views on what winning is making the term subjective, some people consider having the most mounts winning and thus would argue the fact there are shop-only mounts is P2W and this ruins the game for them.

    But lets say for sake of argument P2W is what you say "you can buy gameplay advantages for real money by the game makers". Well in WoW you have to pay a sub, people who pay a sub are paying money to the game makers for gameplay advantages so would you consider this P2W? If you don't then you admit even under your definition P2W is still subjective so where do you draw the line?

  16. #2536
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    By that logic, there are no p2w games in existence. There just games with p2w features which is nothing but avoiding calling WoW p2w as I initially said.
    A good movie can have bad scenes, but overall still be a good movie. A bad movie can have some good scenes, but still overall be a bad movie. Thats how im looking at it, but im aware some will totally disagree.

  17. #2537
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Yes, like you always could. Either directly but against tos, still legally. Or legally and not against TOS with TCG loot.
    Were both examples really dont include the whole playerbase. Most people didnt sell TCG loot or bought gold online. And if they were, Blizzard should instead have doubled down on botting+goldsellers. Instead they just made at legal option.

  18. #2538
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    A good movie can have bad scenes, but overall still be a good movie. A bad movie can have some good scenes, but still overall be a bad movie. Thats how im looking at it, but im aware some will totally disagree.
    It just comes off as nothing but deflection. WoW USED to only have a couple p2w elements like the TCG but tokens and level boosts in the shop have made it full blown p2w.

  19. #2539
    I think people are misconstruing the idea of what it means to "pay to win" or "advantage".

    Someone asked what advantage they earned over someone that didn't pay. By using gold obtained from a WoW Token to buy a boost, you gain an advantage over others who are unwilling to do the same. You gain an advantage over not having to learn the fights, put a group together that could work together and clear the content, in fact you've saved yourself a lot of time.

    Again, WoW is pay to win with the token since people who buy them for gold would otherwise not be able to earn that gold in-game due to factors outside of the game (time, family, school, etc.).

    If I was someone who didn't have the time to commit to a raiding group or guild, learn the fights, make sure I was geared enough to do the content when it's current, or any combination of the above, if I bought a boost, haven't I paid my way to an advantage others in my same scenario didn't have?

    What about getting into that awesome raiding guild that clears raids on a single night under 2 hours? They're looking for a dedicated geared DPS and plenty of people are vying for that spot because that guild carries a certain amount of prestige based on how awesome they are. If I'm skilled, but started late in the expansion or had to take time off but simply bought myself the gear by turning my real-life balance to Blizzard bucks and then buying a boost, am I still not at an advantage over the others who may be just as skilled but would rather not spend money to get there?

  20. #2540
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Yup. 127 pages of people refusing to admit it's p2w but when any other game does the same exact shit WoW is doing, suddenly THOSE games are p2w. The hypocrisy is staggering.
    Its so weird when you think about it, none of us players really benefit from it, its stuff purely added to make more money for blizzard with less work and we ALL suffer for it by getting a worse game, so i don't get why people here would go through such lengths trying to defend it and all come up with their own definitions that always seem to be *insert everything except stuff in wow* and then failing miserably because its impossible to do because other games exist that are called p2w by the same people that share the same mechanics...
    Like, the more ways blizzard uses to scam us the worse game will get, and the less quality will matter, because if their source of income isn't tied directly to the quality of the game then why would they even try when they can just add more manipulative stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    A good movie can have bad scenes, but overall still be a good movie. A bad movie can have some good scenes, but still overall be a bad movie. Thats how im looking at it, but im aware some will totally disagree.
    But if someone asks you ''does the movie have bad scenes'' you're not going to answer ''its a good movie!'' you're going to say ''yes it does''.

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