1. #221
    Careful. The people on this forum really, really love to move the goalposts and change the definition of 'Pay 2 Win' to how they see fit. This will be hard to navigate.

  2. #222
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by perkocet View Post
    Careful. The people on this forum really, really love to move the goalposts and change the definition of 'Pay 2 Win' to how they see fit. This will be hard to navigate.
    Nah, not a problem of moving goalposts, the problem is that there is so damn many of them..
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by LorDC View Post
    I see a lot of people in this thread with arguments along the lines of "you can buy boosts - therefore WoW is pay2win". But that's ridiculous, because by that definition every game in existence is pay2win. Like, you can pay some guy to play Tetris and put the record on the leaderboard under your name. Bam, Tetris is pay2win!
    Can you do a level 50 dungeon at level 1? no you have to level up or you will die this will require time and effort

    Can Jhonny pay X amount of money for a boost to level 50 and do a dungeon with gear immediatly with no time investment or effort put in? Yes!

    Pay to Win.

    Again I said earlier in this thread that it is vitally crucial that we define what "Winning" is in WoW since the game is so diverse. I would argue that for most players "winning" is getting really high end gear and clearing end game content on Heroic/Mythic OR Getting a very high arena rating. Both of those things can be attained by me simply shoveling enough gold at people OBTAINED via WoW tokens that I paid REAL MONEY FOR.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by panda040 View Post
    Can you do a level 50 dungeon at level 1? no you have to level up or you will die this will require time and effort

    Can Jhonny pay X amount of money for a boost to level 50 and do a dungeon with gear immediatly with no time investment or effort put in? Yes!

    Pay to Win.

    Again I said earlier in this thread that it is vitally crucial that we define what "Winning" is in WoW since the game is so diverse. I would argue that for most players "winning" is getting really high end gear and clearing end game content on Heroic/Mythic OR Getting a very high arena rating. Both of those things can be attained by me simply shoveling enough gold at people OBTAINED via WoW tokens that I paid REAL MONEY FOR.
    But due to the age of the game, many do not see the catch-up/boost as Pay2Win, as it just brings you to the current content. It would be P2W if you are a new player though.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    Getting to level 50 a couple of days before someone else doesn't give you some unattainable advantage any more than having a guildmate carry you through freehold for a couple of hours. In fact, given time vs money, most people would likely think (assuming they think logically) the freehold leveler had the more "advantageous" deal seeing as getting power leveled takes little more time than buying a boost but getting power leveled saves you 50-60 bucks.

    Not to mention buying a boost doesn't make you win at anything unless you actually think you win WoW once you hit level 50. Buying a boost doesn't kill raid bosses for you, it doesn't time keystones for you, it doesn't give you BiS gear. All it does is save a minute amount of time at the expense of RWC without making you any better at the game.

    And no. You making up definitions for things doesn't magically put those definitions into any "textbooks". But in case you were wondering, WoW is the actual textbook definition of pay-to-play.
    It literally is pay to win and your post shows you don't really know what pay to win is. Regardless if you agree or not, being able to spend money to skip a large portion of content is an advantage. Period. Just because you don't think it's a big deal doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

    And to a degree, being able to buy tokens then sell them for gold pretty much is pay to win because then those people buy boosts in raids and mythic keys. While maybe not DIRECTLY pay to win through Blizzard, it's still a form of pay to win.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    It literally is pay to win and your post shows you don't really know what pay to win is. Regardless if you agree or not, being able to spend money to skip a large portion of content is an advantage. Period. Just because you don't think it's a big deal doesn't mean it's not an advantage.

    And to a degree, being able to buy tokens then sell them for gold pretty much is pay to win because then those people buy boosts in raids and mythic keys. While maybe not DIRECTLY pay to win through Blizzard, it's still a form of pay to win.
    You literally sidestep between 'Pay 2 Win' and 'Pay 2 Have A Slight Advantage' twice in your post. Gehco is absolutely right here. There's no possible way to resolve this because everyone and their mother has a different definition and everyone thinks their mama is right.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    No it isn't pay to win.

    At most it is pay to catch up. In absolutely NO way is buying a boost putting you ahead of everyone else that doesn't which is the definitive requirement for it being a true pay to win game. In buying a boost, you are REQUIRED to use other people who can actually traverse the content. The only way buying a boost or a token would be pay to win is if nobody else is required to get you the gear.

    Pay to win is Neverwinter, where buying gear is not only completely possible but allows you to absolutely outgear everyone that doesn't pay.
    * I was late into Shadowlands
    * I came back in, got the gold I already had plus maxed out tokens. They sold in a day.
    * I bought myself 2 Heroic Castle runs with 5 stacks each and KSM.

    Tell me again how it doesn't put anyone ahead of anyone else? Im confused. My other guildie is still grinding for KSM because he's desperate for that mount. But I just got it in a few hours LOL. I was just watching Asmongold highlights on YouTube while all this was happening.

    Also, i might just go ahead and buy myself a 2100 boost and /lol at the people trying to grind their way to 2100.

    WoW's built in token system says I just have to buy my gold and watch YouTube and chill while the people who are too poor, well i mean they'll get there... eventually.

    This is where someone says : WELL WHY ARE YOU EVEN PLAYING THE GAME, HOW DUMB CAN YOU BE (this isn't the argument so try to avoid this trap)

    This is where someone also says: WELL ITS LATE INTO THE PATCH SO YOU ARE JUST CATCHING UP WITH THE REST (is this why Im already making arrangements towards paying for Sanctum?)

    Now all this being said, PLEASE dont remove the token system LOL. I cannot sit there and bash my head against the wall for something I can just buy. Im sorry, im not doing that anymore.

  8. #228
    The problem with this thread and every "P2W" thread before it is the same arguing over definitions... People have different views of what "P2W" and what even "winning" means. Its become clear to me seeing the same posters make the same arguments time and time again that fit their personal definition of p2w/win, that these threads are pointless to discuss anything in and honestly wouldn't be sad if they were just insta locked everytime they come back up.

  9. #229
    Depends on your definition of winning. Which of course naysayers will goalpost as much they can, until they define first place in all categories for the entirety of the lifespan of the game as being the only valid state of “winning”.

  10. #230
    Stood in the Fire Agent Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Yes, you are wrong.

    Boosts are irrelevant because you buy boosts from people that have completed the challenging, co-operative content before you.
    Who cares if ArthasdkLoL buys a boost from a guild that killed the end-boss a month ago.

    The same goes for M+. You can't buy your way to the world 1st 22 key for a specific dungeon.
    Buying your way to KSM isn't pay to win it is Pay to Mediocrity. Which is a fitting description for the idiots who buys such boosts.

    The only thing that could be argued that is P2W are BOEs. But it should be noted that all top-end guilds hate BOEs and constantly appeal to Blizzard to lessen the amount of BOEs that you can equip.
    But still it requires the absolute best of the best player to use the advantage of a couple of BOEs in order to get world 1st.

    Can you pay your way to mediocrity in WoW? Yes
    Can you pay your way to world 1st in raids, PvP or M+? No

    WoW is not P2W
    How many world firsts do you have? Im curious. Because if its zero, then you're essentially sinking your time in for mediocrity. My time is more valuable and used elsewhere. Ill drop money on mediocrity and go chat it up with the neighbor. You can sit there and strategize and enjoy how you invest your time.

    Money is easily replaced, time isn't.

  11. #231
    No, because if boosts are pay to win, then ANY game with progression is pay to win as you can pay someone to either carry you or pilot for you.

    As for actual power that is gated behind real money, wow has none of that, therefore it lacks the characteristics that are required to be pay to win.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    How many world firsts do you have? Im curious. Because if its zero, then you're essentially sinking your time in for mediocrity. My time is more valuable and used elsewhere. Ill drop money on mediocrity and go chat it up with the neighbor. You can sit there and strategize and enjoy how you invest your time.

    Money is easily replaced, time isn't.
    Sounds like you dont actually enjoy the game, so not sure why you are playing. I have raided for server firsts in my past, and just because now I don't have the time/desire to invest in going for them doesn't mean my raids are pointless/mediocrity, I very much have a fun time doing casual heroic with a group of guys/gals weekly to chat bullshit and flex on each other.
    Last edited by bledgor; 2021-06-02 at 07:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Gah, now we are going down the rabbit hole, though!

    Which ePeen?

    Achievement points?
    PvP ranking?
    Raiding?
    Pet collection?
    Mount collection?
    Transmog collection?
    Toy collection?
    I think you use the rabbit hole thingy way too much :P

    It means, any of those listed. But what I really mean is boosted to get cutting edge and that sort.

    "See guys, I got Cutting Edge /flex"

    Bought it.
    Considering I have around 10 or 11 cutting edges you are wrong.


  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I think you use the rabbit hole thingy way too much :P

    It means, any of those listed. But what I really mean is boosted to get cutting edge and that sort.

    "See guys, I got Cutting Edge /flex"

    Bought it.
    Bolded the actual problem for everyone in this thread to see.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    This again.

    Yeah if you are a terrible player that thinks reaching 210ilvl when the max is 229 is "win", while never achieving anything and you cant even clear LFR with 10, you consider WoW is P2W.

    Everyone else with a positive IQ value, knows there isnt anything to win in WoW.
    I know many ppl 220+ through buying boosted runs, boes etc. Remember- you get gear on the boosted run. Some boosted runs will even sell you all the gear that drops for your spec. Buy two H CN runs and a boosted KSM. Do it over a period of three weeks (so you get gear from the vault as well each week). Your toon will be well past 210........ (not sure what game you are talking about but this works in WOW).

    So, just through boosts and buying items- you can be 213+ (heroic level gear) plus have the KSM and AOTC achieves in just three weeks (one week if you are lucky). How is that not P2W? You can also buy CE on a lot of realms and mythic carries........

    P2W does not mean that you will be the best in the game...... It just means you can get to a high tier of accomplishment in the game through $$$. You can in WOW.

  15. #235
    Yes, it's pay to win.

    If Asmongold can justify that paid xp boosts in that shitty new mmo made by Amazon is pay to win, then buying gold and buying max level characters certainly is.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by perkocet View Post
    You literally sidestep between 'Pay 2 Win' and 'Pay 2 Have A Slight Advantage' twice in your post. Gehco is absolutely right here. There's no possible way to resolve this because everyone and their mother has a different definition and everyone thinks their mama is right.
    No I don't. You're just viewing it that way. If you can spend real money to gain an advantage in a game, no matter how small you consider it, the game is pay to win. Just because you don't like the definition doesn't mean I'm wrong.

  17. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    No I don't. You're just viewing it that way. If you can spend real money to gain an advantage in a game, no matter how small you consider it, the game is pay to win. Just because you don't like the definition doesn't mean I'm wrong.
    Saying "No I don't" then just responding with the exact same thing restated is not convincing anyone that you know the actual one true definition of Pay 2 Win. I'm loving the process though. Let's keep unpacking.

    Also I should point out that one true definition is bolded because nobody actually knows that because it doesn't actually have a definition. Just vague guidelines that armchair heroes punt along and modify as they see fit.
    Last edited by perkocet; 2021-06-02 at 07:36 PM. Reason: reasoning for bolding someone might need it

  18. #238
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Well, we have a long list of people's views of Pay-2-Win...


    The game apparently is Pay-2-Win by saving time purchasing a boost.
    The game apparently is Pay-2-Win by selling a token/game-time legally for gold.
    The game apparently is Pay-2-Win by selling game-time illegally for gold.
    The game apparently is Pay-2-Win by purchasing items granting you power from the store.
    The game apparently is Pay-2-Win by selling TCG items for gold.
    The game apparently is Pay-2-Win by purchasing gold illegally.
    The game apparently is Pay-2-Win by purchasing services illegally.
    The game apparently is Pay-2-Win by purchasing a boost from other players.

    The game apparently not Pay-2-Win by saving time purchasing a boost.
    The game apparently not Pay-2-Win by selling a token/game-time legally for gold.
    The game apparently not Pay-2-Win by selling game-time illegally for gold.
    The game apparently not Pay-2-Win by purchasing items granting you power from the store.
    The game apparently not Pay-2-Win by selling TCG items for gold.
    The game apparently not Pay-2-Win by gold illegally for boost.
    The game apparently not Pay-2-Win by purchasing services illegally.
    The game apparently not Pay-2-Win by purchasing a boost from other players.

    My biggest belief is that a game is Pay-2-Win when you are able to purchase power from the developer (Progression gear, stat buffs, loot buffs, etc.).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    I think you use the rabbit hole thingy way too much :P

    It means, any of those listed. But what I really mean is boosted to get cutting edge and that sort.

    "See guys, I got Cutting Edge /flex"

    Bought it.
    Maybe, but there is different views of everything, hence this topic goes on once more.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by korijenkins View Post
    Yes, it's pay to win.

    If Asmongold can justify that paid xp boosts in that shitty new mmo made by Amazon is pay to win, then buying gold and buying max level characters certainly is.
    But, you can't buy gold, nor a max-level character?
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by bledgor View Post
    No, because if boosts are pay to win, then ANY game with progression is pay to win as you can pay someone to either carry you or pilot for you.

    As for actual power that is gated behind real money, wow has none of that, therefore it lacks the characteristics that are required to be pay to win.



    Sounds like you dont actually enjoy the game, so not sure why you are playing. I have raided for server firsts in my past, and just because now I don't have the time/desire to invest in going for them doesn't mean my raids are pointless/mediocrity, I very much have a fun time doing casual heroic with a group of guys/gals weekly to chat bullshit and flex on each other.
    You cant follow threads either. Your questions have already been answered.

    I didn't ask if you raided world first, I also raided in top 20 WORLD raid teams, but we fell short so I personally do not have any world firsts. See how I answered that? I DO NOT HAVE WORLD FIRSTS. Thats the answer.

    How many world firsts do you have?

    Why dont I enjoy the game? Because I dont play it like you do? Im so confused. But if you go back, I actually tried to help some of you out that WoW being pay 2 win and WHY someone would do that, having nothing to do with this thread. The fact of the matter is who gives a shit why, who gives a shit if some idiot with a ton of cash "DOESN'T ENJOY" the game (in your PoV) what does someone's habits/play style have anything to do with the fact that I essentially paid my way to the top in less than a month?

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    You cant follow threads either. Your questions have already been answered.

    I didn't ask if you raided world first, I also raided in top 20 WORLD raid teams, but we fell short so I personally do not have any world firsts. See how I answered that? I DO NOT HAVE WORLD FIRSTS. Thats the answer.

    How many world firsts do you have?

    Why dont I enjoy the game? Because I dont play it like you do? Im so confused. But if you go back, I actually tried to help some of you out that WoW being pay 2 win and WHY someone would do that, having nothing to do with this thread. The fact of the matter is who gives a shit why, who gives a shit if some idiot with a ton of cash "DOESN'T ENJOY" the game (in your PoV) what does someone's habits/play style have anything to do with the fact that I essentially paid my way to the top in less than a month?
    If you haven't completed any world firsts then how, exactly, did you 'pay your way to the top'? It sounds like from your last two posts that you paid your way to the middle. Is that Pay 2 Win?

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