1. #2601
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    You aren't even offering someone who to you isn't even "showing a basic effort" a trial spot. By your own definition, someone who bought gear from a Mythic-run is "showing a basic effort" so guess what advantage he has gotten?
    Buying a full mythic set is showing better than a basic effort. So is learning to play the game better. The former is never trumped by the latter. At least in WoW.

    You claimed that you've raided hardcore previously. Can you tell the difference between someone who's bought their gear and one who hasn't?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Thats a non sequitur.. who said Im upset? Im mildly irritated that youre so thick skulled, but Im prepared to move on from debate with you, youre dug in too deep.. but Im not upset in any way with how people spend their money.

    Also your making up terms as you go lol. Pay2decoration?
    You can't even articulate what winning is in WoW and yet you keep on claiming that its P2W. In reality most people spending additional money on the game are just buying decorations. If you prefer that Blizzard would not sell decorations then by all means say that. Explicitly. I don't even have a counter-argument to that.

    Others have made decent examples of what actual P2W looks like and WoW doesn't qualify.

  2. #2602
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Read the conversation. It's between just the two of us, so who is he accusing of arguing in circles? Of dodging?
    I think he was accusing the other guy, from what I gather he was agreeing with you and basically saying that's what they do, they'll argue something different point to dodge the point we're making that the game is P2W.

  3. #2603
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Oh dear. You must be new to the conversation. Please go back through some of the previous 120+ pages and try your very best to understand you have got my argument entirely wrong. I have said for over 100 pages that things like the boost absolutely 100% are P2W.

    So eager to start an internet fight you don't even care who you swing at.

    Secondly, I was not arguing in circles, I was literally responding to your question.
    But then why would you even disagree??? My point is literally that its p2w but that doesn't by itself make something good or bad.
    ''Does it have bad scenes?'' is the same as asking if something is p2w, sure its not a common thing to ask, but that's because movies are generally made to be as good as they can, there would very rarely be things added to them that are bad on purpose, as opposed to games where we see it all the time which makes asking ''is it p2w'' or ''does it have p2w elements'' a lot more relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    I think he was accusing the other guy, from what I gather he was agreeing with you and basically saying that's what they do, they'll argue something different point to dodge the point we're making that the game is P2W.
    But he did that by saying ''the question is uncommon'' rather than just answering it, thus my reply, but its probably a misunderstanding then.
    Last edited by M1r4g3; 2021-10-06 at 08:52 PM.

  4. #2604
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Buying a full mythic set is showing better than a basic effort. So is learning to play the game better. The former is never trumped by the latter. At least in WoW.

    You claimed that you've raided hardcore previously. Can you tell the difference between someone who's bought their gear and one who hasn't?
    Yeah, we used logs and at least back then the number of kills they had when WoW showed it on the Armory page to differentiate between someone who bought a run vs. someone who raided and cleared the content. Wasn't always perfect but we'd bank more on the person having the gear over someone who didn't (can't gauge skill otherwise).

    The point I'm getting at is the advantage they paid for put them in a more favorable light over the next guy. That power, whether negligible or huge, put them at an advantage over someone who we didn't even consider had put in a basic amount of effort (and we saw plenty of applications in that manner). In this case, it's pay to win because it puts them at an advantage over the next guy who's equally vying for that coveted spot in a hardcore guild that they KNOW can clear the content. They get to skip the normal/heroic farm fest and jump straight into Mythic raids. Plenty of them were skilled yet didn't have the time but managed to still find a way to acquire gear they otherwise wouldn't have had access to, much like those who don't have the gear now.

  5. #2605
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Buying a full mythic set is showing better than a basic effort. So is learning to play the game better. The former is never trumped by the latter. At least in WoW.

    You claimed that you've raided hardcore previously. Can you tell the difference between someone who's bought their gear and one who hasn't?

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    You can't even articulate what winning is in WoW and yet you keep on claiming that its P2W. In reality most people spending additional money on the game are just buying decorations. If you prefer that Blizzard would not sell decorations then by all means say that. Explicitly. I don't even have a counter-argument to that.

    Others have made decent examples of what actual P2W looks like and WoW doesn't qualify.
    Still getting hung up on the literal use of win, despite you saying that paying real money for advantages constitutes p2w lol. Theres no hope for you
    Last edited by Eugenik; 2021-10-06 at 09:07 PM.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  6. #2606
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post

    But he did that by saying ''the question is uncommon'' rather than just answering it, thus my reply, but its probably a misunderstanding then.
    Oh then I was wrong then. I thought you were agreeing with him xD

  7. #2607
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Yeah, we used logs and at least back then the number of kills they had when WoW showed it on the Armory page to differentiate between someone who bought a run vs. someone who raided and cleared the content. Wasn't always perfect but we'd bank more on the person having the gear over someone who didn't (can't gauge skill otherwise).

    The point I'm getting at is the advantage they paid for put them in a more favorable light over the next guy. That power, whether negligible or huge, put them at an advantage over someone who we didn't even consider had put in a basic amount of effort (and we saw plenty of applications in that manner). In this case, it's pay to win because it puts them at an advantage over the next guy who's equally vying for that coveted spot in a hardcore guild that they KNOW can clear the content. They get to skip the normal/heroic farm fest and jump straight into Mythic raids. Plenty of them were skilled yet didn't have the time but managed to still find a way to acquire gear they otherwise wouldn't have had access to, much like those who don't have the gear now.
    Anyone who's a consideration has to be trialed regardless of circumstances. Some people aren't going to work regardless of how they got their gear. If someone who bought their gear but delivered the goods anyways while being a cool person is worth keeping.

    The point is you can't buy an advantage. A money advantage can easily be negated by a time advantage. In fact the person with the time advantage is usually the better choice from a raiding/pvping/M+ perspective. They're available to meet the guild's needs while being more practiced at their class or even multiple classes.

  8. #2608
    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    Out of curiosity, for those advocating that WoW is not P2W, what is winning in WoW?

    It is possible to drop a huge amount of money into tokens and trade it to clear M Raids or being at the top bracket in PvP. Isn't that considered winning? You are utilizing other players, yes, but you are doing it by spending real money.

    And if that that does not qualify as winning in WoW, what is? What would be considered winning.
    "What is winning" in WoW is a very open question and doesn't 100% fit the "pay-2-win" model. Most of them have been stamped out but for a while there was a lot of mechanics in games where you could buy straight up buffs that meant you could perform better than someone who hadn't paid.

    The reason I don't think this applies to WoW is there's nothing you can pay cash for that someone else couldn't get through playing the game. It might take a bit more work and time but you cant buy anything insurmountable.

    But like you said the win conditions of WoW aren't necessarily just killing a boss or winning a battle. Once upon a time in a very similar thread I pointed out that for a mount collector WoW is very much pay-2-win because of the mounts they can only get by paying, and while this is mitigated by the token letting you exchange gold for Blizzard cash but I'm not sure how reasonable or practical it is to expect a player to get all the paid mounts that way.

  9. #2609
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Still getting hung up on the literal use of win, despite you saying that paying real money for advantages constitutes p2w lol. Theres no hope for you
    Words have meaning. I've already stated what real P2W could look like in WoW and its definitely not there yet. You can keep on tilting at windmills if you like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I'm not sure how reasonable or practical it is to expect a player to get all the paid mounts that way.
    I have about half the game's shop mounts including those from deluxe versions of the game. I usually buy them when they have a sale. Most of my gold comes from emissaries (on 2 characters) as well as selling stuff from the adventure table and Queen's Conservatory. Yes I bought tokens.

    Back in WoD when the adventure table gave better gold I bought almost all of the TCG loot. Except for the Camel which is almost impossible to get now.

  10. #2610
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
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    Is WoW Pay 2 Win?
    This thread has, finally, definitively proven that WoW is, in fact, Pay to win.

  11. #2611
    WoW is definitively not P2W.

  12. #2612
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    "What is winning" in WoW is a very open question and doesn't 100% fit the "pay-2-win" model. Most of them have been stamped out but for a while there was a lot of mechanics in games where you could buy straight up buffs that meant you could perform better than someone who hadn't paid.

    The reason I don't think this applies to WoW is there's nothing you can pay cash for that someone else couldn't get through playing the game. It might take a bit more work and time but you cant buy anything insurmountable.

    But like you said the win conditions of WoW aren't necessarily just killing a boss or winning a battle. Once upon a time in a very similar thread I pointed out that for a mount collector WoW is very much pay-2-win because of the mounts they can only get by paying, and while this is mitigated by the token letting you exchange gold for Blizzard cash but I'm not sure how reasonable or practical it is to expect a player to get all the paid mounts that way.
    I have to disagree conserning the point about "there's nothing you can pay cash for that someone else couldn't get through playing the game." Not everyone will be able to down mythic bosses when it's current content, and not everyone will be able to reach the top brackets of PvP. But if you pay a raid group to do that for you, you're capable of getting something others never will, even if they do their best, grind it out etc.

    It all comes down to the "What is winning" in this discussion. One of the arguments is about player power, making your character stronger than others by i.e. buffs or items. That does give you an advantage over other players, sure. But even if we were able to buy buffs that increased our HP and damage by 200 %, what would we win? What is the end goal/game/definition? Top brackets in PvP and clearing current content? I can do that by paying with real money.

  13. #2613
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Anyone who's a consideration has to be trialed regardless of circumstances. Some people aren't going to work regardless of how they got their gear. If someone who bought their gear but delivered the goods anyways while being a cool person is worth keeping.

    The point is you can't buy an advantage. A money advantage can easily be negated by a time advantage. In fact the person with the time advantage is usually the better choice from a raiding/pvping/M+ perspective. They're available to meet the guild's needs while being more practiced at their class or even multiple classes.
    But that doesn't negate that without buying that gear you wouldn't have given them a second thought on trialing with them, even if they prove themselves to suck with the gear. That's an inherent advantage over someone who can't do the same either with money or time.

    Sure, an awesome player with an awesome group of people could clear the content with time and feel accomplished. But again, for the purposes of time investment, they gain an advantage over others who can't afford neither the time or money.

  14. #2614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    And were back to looking at FUT. Money can save you thousands of hours of game play. Thats not p2w?
    There seems to be an awful lot of posters ITT trying to play dumb, covering their ears because p2skip "isn't the same" as good ol' p2w. Why? Because they say so lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

  15. #2615
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Of course it matters.

    The reason it matters is that it speaks to the fact that who has the most gold in this game is not a function of who spends the most money. Tokens are a means of transferring gold from those who have a lot of it, and are good at making it, to those who have none and suck at making it.
    If someone sucks at making gold in MMOs and ends up lagging behind then we call it divine providence as that how it should be. You suck at game, you lose or have worse time then someone who pwns in it. Swiping credit card to circumvent it violates the natural order and game progress isn't measured in how a player is good at the game but how much money they can throw at it.

    That's not right no matter which parties are involved in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Tokens aren't giving anyone an in-game advantage. They are there to help those who are at a disadvantage to be at slightly less of a disadvantage. They're a crutch, not some super bionic enhancements, and they cannot translate into a real advantage because of the mechanism governing where the gold actually comes from ie other players.
    Yes they do. You pay extra money, you get extra gold, you spend extra gold for items and boosts non-paying players cannot get for free.
    Someone going to long way of grinding gold or manually getting the good enough group is not doing it at the same efficiency as someone who swiped his credit card.
    That advantage cannot be replicated in same time/effort efficient fashion if you start from scratch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    p2w is problematic in that it divides the players into classes based on how much money they spend. Those who spend a lot of money become the first class citizens of the game, while those who don't become second class citizens of the game. In WoW it's actually the opposite because it is those who sell their gold to token buyers who are already the first class citizens of the game.
    Except there are second class citizens in the game.

    A booster swipes his card and gets guaranteed 10/10hc clears and soon 10/10 mythic clears once they become available.
    Everyone else has to go do it the hard way, perhaps fail as he wastes time on wipes and even if succeds he ends up spending more time doing it legit then he would if he went doing some overtime at work in order to swipe his debit card.

    The first is better off.
    The second is worse off.

    Also you are gullible if you think all WoW token purchases are authentic.
    We're talking about a company that screwed over its female employees and lied to their investors that everything is fine.
    Yet you would lead yourself to believe that they would not screw around with WoW token behind the scenes?

  16. #2616
    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    Top brackets in PvP and clearing current content? I can do that by paying with real money.
    You don't need real money to do that. I probably have enough gold to buy a mythic clear right now. I'd have more but I lost too many "/roll 1-50000".

    Furthermore, being told to die in a corner while you watch the raid is a very different experience than actually trying to do the fight correctly. So what have you "won" if you bought a kill?

  17. #2617
    The Lightbringer The-Shan's Avatar
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    you can pay to skip leveling
    you can pay to be carried through the raids+get loot prio, arenas too.

    yes, you can pay for everything in WoW without breaking the ToS.
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  18. #2618
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    But that doesn't negate that without buying that gear you wouldn't have given them a second thought on trialing with them, even if they prove themselves to suck with the gear. That's an inherent advantage over someone who can't do the same either with money or time.

    Sure, an awesome player with an awesome group of people could clear the content with time and feel accomplished. But again, for the purposes of time investment, they gain an advantage over others who can't afford neither the time or money.
    Its still an MMO. Its not friendly to people who lack the time to play it. You can't replicate time with money since money only allows you to fake your game ability. The game will almost always come down to time investment.

  19. #2619
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    You don't need real money to do that. I probably have enough gold to buy a mythic clear right now. I'd have more but I lost too many "/roll 1-50000".

    Furthermore, being told to die in a corner while you watch the raid is a very different experience than actually trying to do the fight correctly. So what have you "won" if you bought a kill?
    No, you don't need, but that's not the point. I could make a fresh account today, and just pay my way into both the top brackets and mythic content.

    And we are also not talking about the experience. Did I win by buying the kill/ranking? Yes. Was it fun? Probably not, but that's beside the point. We're not talking about P2W-while-enjoying-it-and-having-a-great-time.

    That's why I am talking about the defintion of winning in WoW, and what the advocates for "WoW is not P2W" and their definition of winning is. It is claimed that P2W = Increased Player Power that others can not have. And if that mechanic was implemented, for the sake of the argument, what would it lead to? How would you win then?

  20. #2620
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    You don't need real money to do that. I probably have enough gold to buy a mythic clear right now. I'd have more but I lost too many "/roll 1-50000".

    Furthermore, being told to die in a corner while you watch the raid is a very different experience than actually trying to do the fight correctly. So what have you "won" if you bought a kill?
    You don't need real money to do anything aside from subscribe to WoW. But the point remains is that it's an option available to those who have bigger wallets than they do time to play.

    What they "win" if they die in the corner? Access to loot they wouldn't have even if no loot dropped for them. Loot if it did drop for them. The ability to see or interact with content directly instead of on a YouTube video. It may be a different experience, might even cheapen the experience overall, but it's experience nevertheless that others would not have. There are plenty of players who dream of going into a Mythic raid but probably won't get the chance because they cannot make time commitments to raid regularly with a group that normally clears it, gear issues, etc. This has always been that way since time immemorial.

    I mean, I've even sold Mythic boosts back then with no illusions of what it meant when I wanted/needed gold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Its still an MMO. Its not friendly to people who lack the time to play it. You can't replicate time with money since money only allows you to fake your game ability. The game will almost always come down to time investment.
    But none of that matters in the overall grand scheme of things. We know MMOs aren't friendly to those who can't commit time to them. You can't replicate time, but you can definitely gain it or make more efficient use of the time you do have. When you see someone in a public area with awesome gear, I'd literally bet everything I own that you aren't thinking "How much time did they spend on getting it" - you're likely thinking "how can I get that myself"?

    Think of it this way: You got a family of 4 to feed. If you could get a job that pays $120k outright with very little barrier of entry other than say a $20 certification that required you to only enter your name on a form, you'd more than likely take that over working your way up to $120k in 5-10 years. Path of least resistance applies here much like buying gear/runs with WoW tokens. It's an advantage nevertheless.

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