1. #2621
    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    No, you don't need, but that's not the point. I could make a fresh account today, and just pay my way into both the top brackets and mythic content.

    And we are also not talking about the experience. Did I win by buying the kill/ranking? Yes. Was it fun? Probably not, but that's beside the point. We're not talking about P2W-while-enjoying-it-and-having-a-great-time.

    How would you win then?
    Its still a game. The experience of playing the game absolutely matters. Why is paying for kill/ranking a "win" but enjoying the game and earning a kill/ranking not a "win"?

    You wouldn't win. You might still have some enjoyment. I do play games with blatant P2W mechanics in them. WoW doesn't have equivalent mechanics. I'd probably still enjoy WoW if they instituted actual P2W mechanics although I would probably avoid PVP entirely.

  2. #2622
    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    I have to disagree conserning the point about "there's nothing you can pay cash for that someone else couldn't get through playing the game." Not everyone will be able to down mythic bosses when it's current content, and not everyone will be able to reach the top brackets of PvP. But if you pay a raid group to do that for you, you're capable of getting something others never will, even if they do their best, grind it out etc.
    You can make gold by playing the game and use that to pay the raid group to run you through the content. You can have friends willing to carry you if you don't have the time to dedicate to progressing through content.

    It all comes down to the "What is winning" in this discussion. One of the arguments is about player power, making your character stronger than others by i.e. buffs or items. That does give you an advantage over other players, sure. But even if we were able to buy buffs that increased our HP and damage by 200 %, what would we win? What is the end goal/game/definition? Top brackets in PvP and clearing current content? I can do that by paying with real money.
    And this gets back to what "pay-2-win" refers to. You give cash to the developer and in return you receive a gameplay buff that improves your chances of winning whatever content you are approaching. It's most obvious in PvP games where 200% additional damage and health gives the most obvious benefit over someone without that enhancement, but for PvE you can look at it as effectively paying to nerf the content.

  3. #2623
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    You don't need real money to do anything aside from subscribe to WoW. But the point remains is that it's an option available to those who have bigger wallets than they do time to play.

    What they "win" if they die in the corner? Access to loot they wouldn't have even if no loot dropped for them. Loot if it did drop for them. The ability to see or interact with content directly instead of on a YouTube video. It may be a different experience, might even cheapen the experience overall, but it's experience nevertheless that others would not have. There are plenty of players who dream of going into a Mythic raid but probably won't get the chance because they cannot make time commitments to raid regularly with a group that normally clears it, gear issues, etc. This has always been that way since time immemorial.

    I mean, I've even sold Mythic boosts back then with no illusions of what it meant when I wanted/needed gold.

    But none of that matters in the overall grand scheme of things. We know MMOs aren't friendly to those who can't commit time to them. You can't replicate time, but you can definitely gain it or make more efficient use of the time you do have. When you see someone in a public area with awesome gear, I'd literally bet everything I own that you aren't thinking "How much time did they spend on getting it" - you're likely thinking "how can I get that myself"?

    Think of it this way: You got a family of 4 to feed. If you could get a job that pays $120k outright with very little barrier of entry other than say a $20 certification that required you to only enter your name on a form, you'd more than likely take that over working your way up to $120k in 5-10 years. Path of least resistance applies here much like buying gear/runs with WoW tokens. It's an advantage nevertheless.
    People not having time doesn't make the game P2W. And you still have to consider what you won even if you did pay for it. Transient gear who's only lasting function is filling a slot on the transmog tab. Again, I have no issue with people paying for decoration. Decoration can be obtained through money or time. There's always that option. If you have neither time or money, then I suggest you just take what you can reasonably get. We used to have a DK tank who literally logged into raid (2x3 hour raids per week) and then logged off. Its all the time he could manage and he was reasonably content with that.

    If I see someone in a public area with fat loot I'm not thinking "How can I get it" or "How much did they spend". More likely I didn't notice them at all unless they had a cool transmog.

    Real life considerations do not compare with in game considerations. Your so-called path of least resistance involves boredom. I would hardly consider that an advantage.

  4. #2624
    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    No, you don't need, but that's not the point. I could make a fresh account today, and just pay my way into both the top brackets and mythic content.

    And we are also not talking about the experience. Did I win by buying the kill/ranking? Yes. Was it fun? Probably not, but that's beside the point. We're not talking about P2W-while-enjoying-it-and-having-a-great-time.

    That's why I am talking about the defintion of winning in WoW, and what the advocates for "WoW is not P2W" and their definition of winning is. It is claimed that P2W = Increased Player Power that others can not have. And if that mechanic was implemented, for the sake of the argument, what would it lead to? How would you win then?
    I mean to be fair, you'd be relegated to being a buyer cus your parses would be dogshit and noone would take you as an active participant.
    If doing a boss on the floor and afk is your idea of content, by all means.

  5. #2625
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    You can make gold by playing the game and use that to pay the raid group to run you through the content. You can have friends willing to carry you if you don't have the time to dedicate to progressing through content.
    While that is true, consider those who don't have the time to earn the gold necessary to afford a run with aforementioned raid group. There's still a time investment involved and not everyone can farm gold efficiently enough even if they DID have time. People also don't always have friends either that also play the game as well as play it at a high enough skill level to obtain access to content they want to do, let alone clear it. How does one make trustworthy (and skilled) friends without again making a time investment?

    That's what the boosts do; they provide a workaround to an obstacle or obstacles that would otherwise prevent them from doing so.



    And this gets back to what "pay-2-win" refers to. You give cash to the developer and in return you receive a gameplay buff that improves your chances of winning whatever content you are approaching. It's most obvious in PvP games where 200% additional damage and health gives the most obvious benefit over someone without that enhancement, but for PvE you can look at it as effectively paying to nerf the content.
    That's one way to look at it. I guess, my question is when we're referring to WoW not being pay-to-win, are we saying that because the developer isn't directly giving a buff or nerfing the content so one could play?

    Because I'd say that in WoW terms it's not that different than buying a boost from a guild that's clearing that content; they're essentially buffing themselves with a group of people that without that transfer or facilitation of currency they wouldn't have access to. That group would be good enough to clear the content consistently with less than the required number of players (i.e. they can clear it with 22-24 of their people instead of the 25). The developers in this case may not be directly interacting in the transaction but they are facilitating it and receiving real-time money when one pays $20 for the facilitation so the only difference is that there are added steps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    People not having time doesn't make the game P2W.
    Again, it's not them having time, it's about making efficient use of the time you have. If a run costs $20+2 hours of your time, and I make $15/hr working, I've gained a benefit to spending money over spending time. Sure, I could've earned $30 in that 2-hour timeframe, but I also didn't have to spend hours preparing to clear that content, including obtaining necessary gear, various trial-and-error runs, studying up on the fight beforehand. All of that is time-consuming, time that could be better used doing other things in-game and out of it.

    And you still have to consider what you won even if you did pay for it. Transient gear who's only lasting function is filling a slot on the transmog tab. Again, I have no issue with people paying for decoration. Decoration can be obtained through money or time. There's always that option. If you have neither time or money, then I suggest you just take what you can reasonably get. We used to have a DK tank who literally logged into raid (2x3 hour raids per week) and then logged off. Its all the time he could manage and he was reasonably content with that.

    If I see someone in a public area with fat loot I'm not thinking "How can I get it" or "How much did they spend". More likely I didn't notice them at all unless they had a cool transmog.

    Real life considerations do not compare with in game considerations. Your so-called path of least resistance involves boredom. I would hardly consider that an advantage.
    But what you consider does not matter as that is a subjective opinion. It's an advantage nevertheless regardless to how you feel about it. I too would likely consider it boring; I like accomplishing things on my own accord. But how I feel or what I think does not matter as that is subjective to me and only me. There are plenty of players who's objectives are only getting gear or cheesing fights to get maximum reward for the least amount of effort. They might consider us spending time and doing things the hard way "boring". But does that really matter in the grand scheme of things?
    Last edited by Ekis; 2021-10-06 at 11:02 PM.

  6. #2626
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Again, it's not them having time, it's about making efficient use of the time you have. If a run costs $20+2 hours of your time, and I make $15/hr working, I've gained a benefit to spending money over spending time. Sure, I could've earned $30 in that 2-hour timeframe, but I also didn't have to spend hours preparing to clear that content, including obtaining necessary gear, various trial-and-error runs, studying up on the fight beforehand. All of that is time-consuming, time that could be better used doing other things in-game and out of it.



    But what you consider does not matter as that is a subjective opinion. It's an advantage nevertheless regardless to how you feel about it. I too would likely consider it boring; I like accomplishing things on my own accord. But how I feel or what I think does not matter as that is subjective to me and only me. There are plenty of players who's objectives are only getting gear or cheesing fights to get maximum reward for the least amount of effort. They might consider us spending time and doing things the hard way "boring". But does that really matter in the grand scheme of things?
    That still doesn't make the game P2W. Its just time management. I'll just boil it down to 4 options: Earn it as intended, pay for it with real money, pay for it with gold earned in game or settle for less. The person picking option #2 hasn't really gained an advantage.

    In the grand scheme of things that person is just choosing to do the thing that's more exciting to them. They are exercising an option that has other valid options. I don't really think they're making the wrong choice since the money route at least has options that can give the same outcome.

  7. #2627
    Banned Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    I bought one carry once in the game. My guild wasn’t really running anything and I didn’t want to go join a new guild. And then I broke my elbow in five places and getting AOTC became impossible. Since it was WOD I was drowning in gold from the Adventure table so I bought the AOTC for Hellfire. I don’t really value it because I didn’t earn it like all of my AOTCs. In any case I have no advantage over anyone.

    Bragging about your pixels isn’t an advantage. It just means that you used your time to earn real money. Your time spent earning real money might have you got you some nice pixels but it’s not the same thing as actually doing something. I get that some people just like having stuff but the point of a game is to actually play it. I collect a lot of shit in WOW but I still enjoy running around smashing stuff with my shield the most.

    Furthermore buying gold, gear and runs has been happening since Vanilla. My original Vanilla guild definitely sold MC and BWL runs and we weren’t that remarkable.
    So the argument has basically come down to... "Sure, they can buy the same achievements, gear, titles, mounts, etc. but they didn't get the TRUE experience so there is no pay to win."

    So what people define as "winning" is experiencing putting in the work of clearing stuff themselves?

    The goalposts of this discussion have moved all the way to China at this point. Basically the only bastion people have left to defend boosting as not harmful to the game is that only the experience of putting the work in is what matters.



    Everyone says the Genshin is a pay to win game, right? Well, I'm a low pay genshin player. It's taken me months of work putting into my account, but I'm basically finally at a level where I can compete with the whales. The whales bought all the good stuff right away. I took my time earning it. So by the argument that no game is pay to win if paying means you skip the gameplay experience for the rewards, then Genshin isn't pay to win either.


    Obviously the above is sarcasm. I just find it funny the knots people will tie themselves into to justify boosting as something that's not harming the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    That's only an "advantage" if you define it as reaping the rewards of a run without playing. That ain't an advantage. It just shows that those type of people care about the prestige of having gear and achievements without having to play the game they apparently do not enjoy. They still aren't getting anything that a player who actually enjoys playing can't get. They aren't getting anything that a player who doesn't enjoy playing all that much but has enough integrity to not enlist someone to carry them has access to either.

    Honestly, if you think you're getting some advantage over anyone else by having someone effectively play for you, then this clearly is not the game for you. If you happen to not have time to run some instance that you just refuse to miss a week of and thus elect to pay for a carry or whatever then cool. Everyone else in the game can do that too if they so choose, which of course invalidates the notion of there being any advantage to gain from the practice. We all still have access to the same loot table, just as we all only get that one run before lockout. Now if you were somehow able to do other content on the same character while someone else is taking the time to run them through whatever instance, then that would totally give you an advantage over other players.
    "If you pay to skip content, that's not paying for an advantage, that's just paying to skip gameplay. That's not pay to win."

    As I mentioned, it seems the goalposts for pay to win has rocketed into orbit. If all that matters is getting the gameplay experience, then every gacha game is not pay to win either, because the free players put in far more work to reach the end result, where the whales pay to skip it. It's the EXACT SAME THING in WoW. If you think Chinese games are pay to win, WoW is pay to win. Period.

  8. #2628
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    That still doesn't make the game P2W. Its just time management. I'll just boil it down to 4 options: Earn it as intended, pay for it with real money, pay for it with gold earned in game or settle for less. The person picking option #2 hasn't really gained an advantage.

    In the grand scheme of things that person is just choosing to do the thing that's more exciting to them. They are exercising an option that has other valid options. I don't really think they're making the wrong choice since the money route at least has options that can give the same outcome.
    #2 gains an advantage over 1, 3, or 4 by the very nature of the options you gave.

    A person having to settle for less - obvious disadvantage to someone who pays for it. Someone wanting to clear content on a Mythic level or obtain Mythic level gear can't.

    Earning it as intended - the person who pays for it "earned it" and didn't have to put in the same time or effort doing so. Advantage.

    Pay for it with gold - The average WoW player does not earn the amount of gold necessary to facilitate the purchase, and if the average person did the prices would either increase by the nature of supply and demand. Someone who bought gold with money didn't have to spend hours upon hours farming it, just a few seconds of entering in credit card information. Saved time = advantage.

    To do things as intended would mean spending time finding a decent group to clear content, get gear to clear the next level of content, and maintaining both of these at a level enough to clear the content, not excluding coming ready with enchants/raid consumables, etc. Buying a boost literally negates these obstacles, meaning it's an advantage. Not everybody could clear Naxx in Vanilla when it was relevant. Not everybody can do Mythic Sanctum of Domination today for the same reasons. But if I paid for it, I clearly gained an advantage compared to those who cannot.

    Again, subjectivity does not come into play because people find not raiding at all and playing Pet Battles a majority of the time more "exciting". We're not talking about what's exciting. We're talking about effectively using RL money to circumvent disadvantages to doing things "as intended".

  9. #2629
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    #2 gains an advantage over 1, 3, or 4 by the very nature of the options you gave.

    A person having to settle for less - obvious disadvantage to someone who pays for it. Someone wanting to clear content on a Mythic level or obtain Mythic level gear can't.

    Earning it as intended - the person who pays for it "earned it" and didn't have to put in the same time or effort doing so. Advantage.

    Pay for it with gold - The average WoW player does not earn the amount of gold necessary to facilitate the purchase, and if the average person did the prices would either increase by the nature of supply and demand. Someone who bought gold with money didn't have to spend hours upon hours farming it, just a few seconds of entering in credit card information. Saved time = advantage.
    Settling for less happens even in a strict non-P2W game. The option was included for completeness. They are at a disadvantage to everyone.

    Option #1 is the fun option. Your definition is subjective. I counter that its a disadvantage because it doesn't provide the same game experience. Some are content with just the rewards, some are would like the real game experience but are settling for less.

    Option #2 and #3 are effectively the same. Some find its easier to earn real life money, some find its easier to earn gold in game. Spending time in game earning gold is not any different than spending time gaining money in real life. You're also wrong about how people earn gold in game. Some people are fantastically wealthy in game without ever spending a penny in real life. Personally its easier for me to earn gold in game than real life money.

    In any event, if you can obtain the exact same rewards through multiple means while having no power advantage the game isn't P2W.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    So the argument has basically come down to... "Sure, they can buy the same achievements, gear, titles, mounts, etc. but they didn't get the TRUE experience so there is no pay to win."
    That's certainly part of it. The real argument does paying money give you an actual statistical advantage? The answer is no. It doesn't even give you much of lead in decorations. Gear is still gated and somewhat random to obtain.

    Anything obtainable in game is also obtainable by other means.

  10. #2630
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Settling for less happens even in a strict non-P2W game. The option was included for completeness. They are at a disadvantage to everyone.

    Option #1 is the fun option. Your definition is subjective. I counter that its a disadvantage because it doesn't provide the same game experience. Some are content with just the rewards, some are would like the real game experience but are settling for less.

    Option #2 and #3 are effectively the same. Some find its easier to earn real life money, some find its easier to earn gold in game. Spending time in game earning gold is not any different than spending time gaining money in real life. You're also wrong about how people earn gold in game. Some people are fantastically wealthy in game without ever spending a penny in real life. Personally its easier for me to earn gold in game than real life money.

    In any event, if you can obtain the exact same rewards through multiple means while having no power advantage the game isn't P2W.

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    That's certainly part of it. The real argument does paying money give you an actual statistical advantage? The answer is no. It doesn't even give you much of lead in decorations. Gear is still gated and somewhat random to obtain.

    Anything obtainable in game is also obtainable by other means.
    "Fun" is subjective. How are you calling out something as subjective when using a subjective opinion in the same sentence? What you find "fun" is not the same thing as what someone else considers to be "fun". We're not talking about "experience", what's "fun", or any of that. We're talking about the nature of paying to obtain an advantage. Why are we even going back to this?

    Also I didn't say nobody could farm gold or be wealthy. Someone who spends a significant amount of time going full goblin on the AH is not the average player. Neither is the player that does nothing but farm gold all day. These aren't your typical WoW players. Still, the point remains, to get that gold you either invest time by gaming the AH or going hardcore on gold farming to the point of almost doing that solely. I don't know how much gold boosts cost in SL (haven't played) but I'm sure nobody is farming upwards of the equivalent to $1-3k in gold for Mythic raid boosts. Heck I'd almost think that even full heroic runs are expensive. Someone who did that definitely isn't an "average" wow player by far.

    I'm being completely objective considering my bias of actually selling boosts.
    Last edited by Ekis; 2021-10-07 at 12:58 AM.

  11. #2631
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    "Fun" is subjective. How are you calling out something as subjective when using a subjective opinion in the same sentence? What you find "fun" is not the same thing as what someone else considers to be "fun". We're not talking about "experience", what's "fun", or any of that. We're talking about the nature of paying to obtain an advantage. Why are we even going back to this?
    Because its still a game. I've layed out some options how people can obtain a reward but the experience of obtaining that reward will vary depending on which option you choose. Your satisfaction with each option will also be different than other players doing the same. Some people are just choosing the best option but wish they could use a different option. For example, a person may have a miserable but well-paying job but would rather just fuck around and play lots of WoW. This persons best option is to spend money in game and get a bit of loot. I don't have any problem with this and this type of player has existed since Vanilla. One thing this player can't do is gain a statistical game play advantage over other players. There are other games where this is possible but it isn't possible in WoW.

  12. #2632
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Yes; It's still Pay-2-Win since the last time we discussed it.
    If its "still" pay-2-win since the last time *you* decided it was pay-2-win, then it has ALWAYS been pay-2-win.

  13. #2633
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    Because its still a game. I've layed out some options how people can obtain a reward but the experience of obtaining that reward will vary depending on which option you choose. Your satisfaction with each option will also be different than other players doing the same. Some people are just choosing the best option but wish they could use a different option. For example, a person may have a miserable but well-paying job but would rather just fuck around and play lots of WoW. This persons best option is to spend money in game and get a bit of loot. I don't have any problem with this and this type of player has existed since Vanilla. One thing this player can't do is gain a statistical game play advantage over other players. There are other games where this is possible but it isn't possible in WoW.
    Again, we aren't talking about subjective things as "satisfaction". And I think you're applying pay to win to only one instance and ignoring other instances where P2W elements are actually there. I think Cthulu's example of gacha games immediately counters this; if it was all about "experience", gacha games aren't P2W since players that don't spend any kind of money have the same "experience" as whales.

    If it was only about experience, people wouldn't have complained back when LFR was implemented that it didn't drop loot. They got the experience, right?
    Last edited by Ekis; 2021-10-07 at 01:47 AM. Reason: spelling

  14. #2634
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Again, we aren't talking about subjective things as "satisfaction". And I think you're applying pay to win to only one instance and ignoring other instances where P2W elements are actually there. I think Cthulu's example of gacha games immediately counters this; if it was all about "experience", gacha games aren't P2W since players that don't spend any kind of money have the same "experience" as whales.

    If it was only about experience, people wouldn't have complained back when LFR was implemented that it didn't drop loot. They got the experience, right?
    P2W is only about statistical advantage. I haven’t played Genshin. Some brief reading about the game shows that there are complaints about it being P2W but others have stated that’s well over blown. You’ll have to examine each game separately to see what advantages spending confers. If time spent is the only difference in game play from spending money, how much time do you need to catch up satisfactorily? If that time starts to resemble infinity then the game is probably P2W.

    LFR is a very different raiding experience than Normal, Heroic and Mythic. The loots not even the same. The only similarities between the four modes is the graphics and sound. Blizzard showing off their art is probably the chief reason LFR exists.

  15. #2635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Again, we aren't talking about subjective things as "satisfaction". And I think you're applying pay to win to only one instance and ignoring other instances where P2W elements are actually there. I think Cthulu's example of gacha games immediately counters this; if it was all about "experience", gacha games aren't P2W since players that don't spend any kind of money have the same "experience" as whales.

    If it was only about experience, people wouldn't have complained back when LFR was implemented that it didn't drop loot. They got the experience, right?
    Yo, theres no point. Ivanstone is either a troll, or white knighting for a company, because reasons. He has a list of talking points that he cycles between.

  16. #2636
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    P2W is only about statistical advantage. I haven’t played Genshin. Some brief reading about the game shows that there are complaints about it being P2W but others have stated that’s well over blown. You’ll have to examine each game separately to see what advantages spending confers. If time spent is the only difference in game play from spending money, how much time do you need to catch up satisfactorily? If that time starts to resemble infinity then the game is probably P2W.
    P2W is not only about statistical advantage. Literally every definition of pay-to-win on every page states that it only means to gain ANY advantage over non-paying peers.

    I think this page defines it best: https://alternateimage.net/gaming/20...d-of-warcraft/

    The same points above means that it is incredibly easy, if not a bit costly, to pay for significant advantage in WoW. A PVP player can buy carries to a relatively high rating. A PVE player can buy carries to all relevant PVE achievements for each tier of content, giving both a gear advantage and the ability to link the achievements to make group invites more readily available. The only caveat here is that some of the carries can take some time until they are available (aka the carry groups have enough gear/practice), but often a lesser scope of the carry is available almost as soon as the content is out. The ability to use cash, through tokens/gold, to buy carries is a massive advantage that cannot be ignored.
    Therefore, if your hung up on the idea of "win", change it to "advantage". And if you say you cannot pay for advantages then I'd have to really consider if we're discussing this in good faith.

    LFR is a very different raiding experience than Normal, Heroic and Mythic. The loots not even the same. The only similarities between the four modes is the graphics and sound. Blizzard showing off their art is probably the chief reason LFR exists.
    Again, we're not talking about experience, we're talking about end goals. If someone's goal was to simply "experience" Blizzard's "art" then LFR would be all they need, regardless of the drops (if any did). Or heck, a YouTube video of someone's full run or a Twitch stream would suffice.

    Things such as experience, skill, or satisfaction is irrelevant to the discussion. People's goals vary, so mentioning "satisfaction" and "experience" means nothing here if there's even one person who does not agree with what you find satisfying.

    The only questions needing to be answered is (1) Can I use real money to skip content, be it directly from Blizzard or indirectly? and (2) Are there any advantages, direct or indirect that can be gained by using real money?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Yo, theres no point. Ivanstone is either a troll, or white knighting for a company, because reasons. He has a list of talking points that he cycles between.
    I know, but the idiot in me is still giving him the benefit of the doubt here. Like I know he's literally beating around the bush, but there's this stupid part of me that thinks "maybe he really doesn't know" lol
    Last edited by Ekis; 2021-10-07 at 04:27 AM.

  17. #2637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    I know, but the idiot in me is still giving him the benefit of the doubt here. Like I know he's literally beating around the bush, but there's this stupid part of me that thinks "maybe he really doesn't know" lol
    He knows. He changes his point every time his previous one becomes effectively countered. Thats not by mistake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Therefore, if your hung up on the idea of "win", change it to "advantage". And if you say you cannot pay for advantages then I'd have to really consider if we're discussing this in good faith.
    Hes already made this point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    P2W implies winning. Lots of games are P2W. Maybe you should play some of them. I currently play Lords Mobile, Star Trek Timelines and Marvel Puzzle Quest. All 3 of which are games where you can pay real money to gain a decisive game play advantage over other players.

  18. #2638
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    He knows. He changes his point every time his previous one becomes effectively countered. Thats not by mistake.

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    Hes already made this point:
    Oh. Well then. Guess that answered the idiot in me lol

  19. #2639
    Soo I've just did highest DPS on a key (Overall) with 231 ilv, while the other 2 had 242/245, you can buy all gear, doesn't matter if you're bad

  20. #2640
    I'm gonna make a quick attempt to summarize some of the arguments on the non P2W side.

    1. "In order for a game to be considered P2W, you have to gain real player power."

    As I stated earlier with my example of the buff you can buy which increase your HP and damage by 200 %, what does the buff ultimately lead to? What is the end game with that buff? The only two things, in WoW, I can think of is top brackets in PvP and clearing current mythic content. If I wished to, I could open a new account today, buy a level boost, buy a ridiculous amount of tokens, sell those and have so much gold I could buy carries for both PvE and PvP, leading to the same result as if I would buy a 200 % buff, but with even less effort. I could just stand in the graveyard or type /follow in the raid, and would get all the items, trophies, achievements, pets, toys, mounts, everything. I could even pay another player to play the game for me, just giving me the rewards.

    2. "You're only buying decorations, that's not winning."

    Isn't that what all games do offer tho, when you leave fun, experience and enjoyment out of the equation? Decorations? If you play a game where you can buy yourself to the top, what does that give you? A banner? Title? A spot on a leaderboard? As I stated with my point regarding player power, the end game is the same, right? Beating other players?

    3. "It's not P2W if you can do the exact same thing for free."

    Then by this logic there are no P2W-games out there, which I know of, where you can not do the exact same if you just invest a lot more time, training and learning. The fun part is that this does not hold true for WoW. Yes, if you play enough, have enough friends that can boost you, help you, etc. you might clear that mythic raid without the skills and time investement. But those are big ifs, and are irrelevant for the discussion. We're talking about what constitutes P2W, what is winning in WoW, and does WoW offer a P2W option.

    My answer to this question is yes, WoW is pay to win. It is not done directly by buying a buff or item that makes you overpowered, but it is by purchasing in game gold, which facilitates the rest.

    A step-by-step way to win in WoW.
    1. Open fresh account
    2. Buy level boost
    3. Buy tokens
    4. Sell tokens
    5. /2 LF leveling boost, 100k gold per level
    6. /2 LF Current Mythic Content clear, all achievements and items are reserved, 500k gold per player
    7. /2 LF PvP boosting (top bracket), 50k gold per game per player
    8. ???
    9. Congratulations, you have won in WoW.

    Edit: typo

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