1. #2641
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,176
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That's not how p2w works at all. If I spend $60, I am getting a headstart over someone else not spending that money and starting at level 1.
    What the hell are you even talking about? Getting a "boost" to push a character to the level where the average player was a year ago is not a "headstart". It's a catchup.

    p2w works by giving people who pay an advantage over those players who aren't paying which they cannot hope to overcome without either paying themselves or putting in an extraordinary amount of effort.

    If they started selling a L70 character boost at the start of their next expansion, which allowed players paying for this boost to hit level cap before those trying to level up the normal way, then that would be p2w.

    Please don't tell me that this concept is hard to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Just because you want to try and redefine what the word "advantage" means doesn't make you correct.
    On the contrary, it is you who seems to be trying to redefine things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    a catch-up mechanism can be a pay to win feature if it takes long time to catch up
    You've got it the wrong way around. A pay to win feature can be used to achieve the same outcome as a catch up mechanism, but that does not make a catch up mechanism a pay to win feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    imagine average mobile game with time locks on building shit - without paying extra you're severely gimped compared to players who did pay, and you have to compete with them
    Yes, these are p2w games. And the notion of trying to compare WoW to such a game is ridiculous.

  2. #2642
    Dreadlord Femininity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Woman in a Man's World
    Posts
    961
    *Laughs in purchased purples*
    Remember: Words are not violence.
    Hyperion - Primal NA - Lone Hero

  3. #2643
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,176
    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    If someone sucks at making gold in MMOs and ends up lagging behind then we call it divine providence as that how it should be. You suck at game, you lose or have worse time then someone who pwns in it. Swiping credit card to circumvent it violates the natural order and game progress isn't measured in how a player is good at the game but how much money they can throw at it.
    Progress in WoW has never been measured by how much money you can throw it. It's about how much and time and effort you throw at it. If you believe that the people who are at the top of this "natural order" are there because they spent money buying WoW tokens, you're delusional. If anything, the type of player who spends money on tokens sits near the bottom of the "natural order" while those at the top of "natural order" are the ones supplying the gold for the token market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    Yes they do. You pay extra money, you get extra gold, you spend extra gold for items and boosts non-paying players cannot get for free.
    That is an outright lie. You do not have to pay money to obtain the gold needed to buy any of this stuff. The fact that the gold bought by those who do pay comes from players who don't pay proves this. This would, of course, be very different if Blizzard sold gold directly to players without the other end of the transaction and the player paying gold for their tokens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    Someone going to long way of grinding gold or manually getting the good enough group is not doing it at the same efficiency as someone who swiped his credit card. That advantage cannot be replicated in same time/effort efficient fashion if you start from scratch.
    The manner in which tokens work proves you wrong. If the gold that you can buy with tokens was as difficult to make in game as you indicate, then no one would be using their gold to buy tokens. The supply demand mechanism guarantees that the amount of gold you will get when you buy a token is trivial to make in game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    Except there are second class citizens in the game.
    Not on the basis of who buys tokens/spends money. Which is what I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    A booster swipes his card and gets guaranteed 10/10hc clears and soon 10/10 mythic clears once they become available.
    Everyone else has to go do it the hard way, perhaps fail as he wastes time on wipes and even if succeds he ends up spending more time doing it legit then he would if he went doing some overtime at work in order to swipe his debit card.
    You're making a "theoretical" claim based on a (massively flawed) set of assumptions that suits your argument, but has zero grounding in what actually happens in game.

    Firstly, boosting is not exclusively available to, nor exclusively used by players who buy gold with tokens. In fact I would argue that far more boostees do so using gold obtained in-game than through tokens.

    Secondly, by definition, if you're getting boosted, you are already not in the top echelon of players, because those in the top echelon are those providing the boost. So again, your argument fails.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dzonathan View Post
    Also you are gullible if you think all WoW token purchases are authentic.
    We're talking about a company that screwed over its female employees and lied to their investors that everything is fine.
    Yet you would lead yourself to believe that they would not screw around with WoW token behind the scenes?
    That is conspiracy theory talk. But hardly surprising that you would resort to this type of bottom-of-the-barrel style of argumentation.

    And before you try to strawman me, no, I don't approve of Blizzard's crimes against their female staff, or many other egregious things they have done/continue to do. But that is patently not evidence that they are messing with token supply and demand. And if you actually have a clue and look at how the token price fluctuates, this gives us every reason to believe that tokens are traded as advertised.

  4. #2644
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post


    Firstly, boosting is not exclusively available to, nor exclusively used by players who buy gold with tokens. In fact I would argue that far more boostees do so using gold obtained in-game than through tokens.

    Secondly, by definition, if you're getting boosted, you are already not in the top echelon of players, because those in the top echelon are those providing the boost. So again, your argument fails.
    You really think the average player farms enough gold to get boosted on the regular? The average player farm so much gold himself and because of that boosting has exploded in tradechat and in LFG channel? Yeah right. Most people dont spend all day farming gold. They have the gold that covers the basis costs of proff stuff and such, but the average player dont run around farming 200k+ gold. Just as most people dont push mythic raiding.

    The bronto mount in BfA would never have costed 5 millions if the token wasnt in the game. Same goes with various other mounts. Prices for various proffesion materials(like legendary crafting materials in SL) would never have the pricetag it does if token wasnt part of the game.

    You can keep on twisting and turning on this, but the token is nothing else but a cheap p2w feature added by Blizzard. Reason? they cant be bothered to fix the blatant botting+RMT/gold trading for boosts happening in theyre own game, so they just made a legal approach. All the while still not giving a shit about botting, RMT and such.

    It also doesnt matter that the tokens that are sold are gold from other players, it affect the game badly no matter.

    The fact that MMORPG players actually defend this practice is telling of how far off the genre has become from what it was. Its sad.

  5. #2645
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    What the hell are you even talking about? Getting a "boost" to push a character to the level where the average player was a year ago is not a "headstart". It's a catchup.

    p2w works by giving people who pay an advantage over those players who aren't paying which they cannot hope to overcome without either paying themselves or putting in an extraordinary amount of effort.

    If they started selling a L70 character boost at the start of their next expansion, which allowed players paying for this boost to hit level cap before those trying to level up the normal way, then that would be p2w.

    Please don't tell me that this concept is hard to understand.



    On the contrary, it is you who seems to be trying to redefine things.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You've got it the wrong way around. A pay to win feature can be used to achieve the same outcome as a catch up mechanism, but that does not make a catch up mechanism a pay to win feature.



    Yes, these are p2w games. And the notion of trying to compare WoW to such a game is ridiculous.
    You are literally trying to redefine what p2w means instead of just admitting WoW is p2w. Your description of "how p2w works" isn't remotely accurate. Paying $60 for a massive level boost is purchasing player power and is therefore p2w. Just because you refuse to say anything negative about WoW doesn't mean the game isn't p2w.

  6. #2646
    Quote Originally Posted by Hangedman View Post
    Soo I've just did highest DPS on a key (Overall) with 231 ilv, while the other 2 had 242/245, you can buy all gear, doesn't matter if you're bad
    Overall dps doesn't mean shit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    I have never once in my life trolled or tried to troll anyone.

  7. #2647
    If you can buy gear for real-life money then it's pay to win. In a game where gear matters as much as it does - you can pay for anything in WoW. Also Glad - KSM - Mythic Raider. Just accept it.

    If you define win by skills - then no - but people measure dicks in glads/ilv around here.

  8. #2648
    Depends how you define winning. Could you buy a boost to a certain pvp ranking and then spend months getting gear for that pvp raiting by doing bgs and other shit? Sure. But that is not winning since gear means nothing and you are not good enough to play your character at that rating. Same goes for mythic raid boosting. Could you buy a boost to get mythic gear that means nothing? Sure. However you are not in a guild with a decent ranking nor will you have logs showing what you did during these raids making it all useless. So no, wow is not pay2win.

  9. #2649
    for some people it is p2w, for some it isnt, some dont know, some dont care...

    it entirely depends on what you consider p2w as there is no universaly accepted clear definition, every "definition" is too ambiguous

  10. #2650
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilookfly View Post
    Depends how you define winning. Could you buy a boost to a certain pvp ranking and then spend months getting gear for that pvp raiting by doing bgs and other shit? Sure. But that is not winning since gear means nothing and you are not good enough to play your character at that rating. Same goes for mythic raid boosting. Could you buy a boost to get mythic gear that means nothing? Sure. However you are not in a guild with a decent ranking nor will you have logs showing what you did during these raids making it all useless. So no, wow is not pay2win.
    I fail to see the difference. The outcome is the same, you got the rank, you got the kill, the loot the achieve, with less in game effort. This isn't a topic about P2GetSkills. It's about winning.

  11. #2651
    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    I fail to see the difference. The outcome is the same, you got the rank, you got the kill, the loot the achieve, with less in game effort. This isn't a topic about P2GetSkills. It's about winning.
    What pay2win usually means is that with enough money you can be the best in the game. Ergo buying power. You cant do that in WoW unless you think it's sick to buy mythic boosts to flex in heroic raids or other low end content. But then again.. There is no market for whales and such. Gear is not winning.
    Last edited by Ilookfly; 2021-10-07 at 12:42 PM.

  12. #2652
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilookfly View Post
    What pay2win usually means is that with enough money you can be the best in the game. Ergo buying power. You cant do that in WoW unless you think it's sick to buy mythic boots to flex in heroic raids or other low end content.
    What's the metric for being best in the game? As I said, you can buy top bracket rankings and mythic kills, there is no other way to be best than having that.

  13. #2653
    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    What's the metric for being best in the game? As I said, you can buy top bracket rankings and mythic kills, there is no other way to be best than having that.
    Guild rankings, io score, log rankings for pve and rank 1 for pvp. Buying rank 1 is not really a thing. You cant buy logs or guild rankings and its impossible to buy io high enough to be of note. Again, no one cares about an achivement or gear. Its about how well you did during the kill and when in time this kill took place.

  14. #2654
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilookfly View Post
    Guild rankings, io score, log rankings for pve and rank 1 for pvp. Buying rank 1 is not really a thing. You cant buy logs or guild rankings and its impossible to buy io high enough to be of note. Again, no one cares about an achivement or gear. Its about how well you did during the kill and when in time this kill took place.
    But this is beyond the scope of the game, and external material from other sources. I could as easily say that no one cares about those metrics either.

    You CAN still buy the ranks and kills, which a lot of other players can't achieve.

  15. #2655
    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    But this is beyond the scope of the game, and external material from other sources. I could as easily say that no one cares about those metrics either.

    You CAN still buy the ranks and kills, which a lot of other players can't achieve.
    What ranks can you buy? Any rank high enough to be of note is beyond purchase. Also, Jeff Bezos paid his way up in to space. This does not make him an astronaut and everyone knows that. Just cus you spend a massive amount of gold to see the sunlight for a moment does not mean you are now in the ecosystem. Its that simple. Wow has many flaws and its easy to bash the game. But calling it pay2win is really pushing it. If Wow is pay2win then literally every game on the planet is so aswell.

  16. #2656
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilookfly View Post
    What ranks can you buy? Any rank high enough to be of note is beyond purchase. Also, Jeff Bezos paid his way up in to space. This does not make him an astronaut and everyone knows that. Just cus you spend a massive amount of gold to see the sunlight for a moment does not mean you are now in the ecosystem. Its that simple. Wow has many flaws and its easy to bash the game. But calling it pay2win is really pushing it. If Wow is pay2win then literally every game on the planet is so aswell.
    Just one google search: https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...the-game/78503

    And you're going beyond the scope, now you're calling it Pay to get skilled. If that is the criteria, then literally every P2W-game isn't a P2W game, because you aren't good enough.

    And sure, Jeff is not a trained astronaut, but he has been to space. Beats the majority of the worlds populace. Did he get there by skill, training, knowledge of space? No, he payed to WIN. Thanks for just proving my point tho.

  17. #2657
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    You are wasting your calories by typing, these guys are clueless and defaulted opinions that everything is P2W, because WoW apparently has a win nowdays
    I think you don't understand what pay to win in regards to a non pvp game means. Reaching a goal is what is considered "win".
    If your goal is to kill Mythic Sylvanas while it is considered "relevant", the intended path of doing it is by being part of a guild doing progression on previous bosses, gearing up and eventually killing her after a number of wipes. When you kill her it is a "win".
    In a pve game there is nothing like a clear pvp win, but there are objectives, scores, leaderboards, achis, all marking different wins.
    If you shell out cash to do none of that, to skip ahead and get a kill with no gear and basically no progression, it's what you call pay to win.

    See, here is the deal. Pay to win does not strictly mean something that is way more overpowered than existing stuff. It also means doing things faster than intended, paying to skip time and effort you would have to put towards an objective.

    And tbh you can also buy wins in pvp, and that is pretty clear cut. Doable with friends as well, sure, but you dont pay for it, which makes the whole difference. Befriending ppl in an mmo to reach objectives together is intended, buying people to get you stuff you want is not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    But to make it clearer. Can you, for example, kill Mythic Sylvanas while relevant while ALL of the things below are true?
    1. Without having any wipes on her
    2. Without having friends of any sort
    3. Without having gear
    4. Without doing anything (dying at pull)
    I think no.

    But can you tick all of the above and PAY to get It?
    I think yes.
    And this is what pay to win means. You can do something with paying you would not be able to without. YOU, the one who is in this situation. Not others who are in a different situation, have more time, have friends etc.

  18. #2658
    Quote Originally Posted by Maddoc View Post
    What's the metric for being best in the game? As I said, you can buy top bracket rankings and mythic kills, there is no other way to be best than having that.
    Exactly, all people paying cash can do is try to be on par with people playing normally or paying for carries purely with gold. There's no special gear or buffs you can pay cash for to elevate you above the best non-paying players like p2w games have.

  19. #2659
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    8,422
    The only way that WoW is NOT P2W is if you redefine, or narrowly define(what most people do in this thread), what P2W is.

  20. #2660
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    9,408
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    Its so weird when you think about it, none of us players really benefit from it, its stuff purely added to make more money for blizzard with less work and we ALL suffer for it by getting a worse game, so i don't get why people here would go through such lengths trying to defend it and all come up with their own definitions that always seem to be *insert everything except stuff in wow* and then failing miserably because its impossible to do because other games exist that are called p2w by the same people that share the same mechanics...
    Two words: Stockholm syndrome.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    It's not really retconning though. There's plenty we didn't know from WC3 - a story which is just about 20 years old. The Jailer is the backbone of that story.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    It's interesting how a character that didn't exist back then could be the backbone of the story. Guess that story must have been an invertebrate then.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •