1. #2701
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    To a degree it absolutely is. You can buy gold directly from Blizzard. And you can use that gold to buy high end boe and pay for carries for high end content.
    Eh, you do not buy gold directly from Blizzard, though.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  2. #2702
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    boosting increased significantly because of the release of new types of content that were well suited to boosting.
    That makes no sense. In cata it was extremely suitable for boosting because the best guilds could carry one to two people at least.
    This discussion is silly when some of you completely ignore that the shop now can make boosters buy ALL blizzard products.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Re-writing history so you can call it pay to win now
    This entire framework of reasoning - to put ionto focus the definition of pay to win itself - is silly because I could play devil's advocate and tell you that everything is pay to win technically since I could pay someone to play for you and you would be watching tv pretending your avatar is playing but you did it with money and it was any game that exists.

    That's why the definition itself is irrevenant compared to the extend of it. The fact is the boosters can now use the shop to buy everything that Blizzard sells and that is something you and others here ignore which is a gigantic factor of what's going on here.
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  3. #2703
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I'm not even sure what you are trying to say. PvE is always competing against the computer. That is the "everyone" part. Leveling, or group play, is always against the computer. You seem to be implying that nothing can be pay to win unless it is PvP.

    A level boost is paying to win. Buying gear would be paying to win. Buying gold is not paying to win. You never actually made commentary on those things.
    TIL: The Race to World First doesnt exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That makes no sense. In cata it was extremely suitable for boosting because the best guilds could carry one to two people at least.
    This discussion is silly when some of you completely ignore that the shop now can make boosters buy ALL blizzard products.

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    This entire framework of reasoning - to put ionto focus the definition of pay to win itself - is silly because I could play devil's advocate and tell you that everything is pay to win technically since I could pay someone to play for you and you would be watching tv pretending your avatar is playing but you did it with money and it was any game that exists.

    That's why the definition itself is irrevenant compared to the extend of it. The fact is the boosters can now use the shop to buy everything that Blizzard sells and that is something you and others here ignore which is a gigantic factor of what's going on here.
    I pay a subscription fee, therefore the game is Pay-2-win.

  4. #2704
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Eh, you do not buy gold directly from Blizzard, though.
    While true, let's be mindful of the fact that Blizzard controls the amount of gold people could theoretically farm AND facilitates the trading of gold (enough to make a profit off of it while really not doing anything).

    Yes, they've removed themselves from the step of actually buying it directly from them, however they could at any time change the amount of gold pumped into the game via quest rewards/loot drops. And while there has been times where the demand for WoW tokens outpaced the supply, we wouldn't really know if, say, a Blizzard exec or someone with vested interest could just create a character, generate some gold or WoW token out of thin air and simply make things available since we're not privy to such information other than what they'd tell us.

    Not saying they would or are in fact doing this, but given that they have ultimate control over both supply and demand (it is their product after all), who's to say whether they have a hand in it or not?

    I'd still refer to it as a bit of pay-to-win (or pay for advantage) but that's just because of the nature of the beast when it comes to dealing with tradable currency. Whether it's directly from Blizzard or from the players themselves, it includes a transaction of power with currency that's now purchasable for real life money.

  5. #2705
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    While true, let's be mindful of the fact that Blizzard controls the amount of gold people could theoretically farm AND facilitates the trading of gold (enough to make a profit off of it while really not doing anything).

    Yes, they've removed themselves from the step of actually buying it directly from them, however they could at any time change the amount of gold pumped into the game via quest rewards/loot drops. And while there has been times where the demand for WoW tokens outpaced the supply, we wouldn't really know if, say, a Blizzard exec or someone with vested interest could just create a character, generate some gold or WoW token out of thin air and simply make things available since we're not privy to such information other than what they'd tell us.

    Not saying they would or are in fact doing this, but given that they have ultimate control over both supply and demand (it is their product after all), who's to say whether they have a hand in it or not?

    I'd still refer to it as a bit of pay-to-win (or pay for advantage) but that's just because of the nature of the beast when it comes to dealing with tradable currency. Whether it's directly from Blizzard or from the players themselves, it includes a transaction of power with currency that's now purchasable for real life money.
    I have mostly signed myself out of the discussion but it gets tiresome to see people claim that you could buy gold from Blizzard when it is from other players by trading game-time with them, Blizzard just facilitates and makes it safer, they set the price but does not control the supply or demand. They've removed illegal gold selling, illegal boosting, and illegal game-time trading by adding the token, a problem that was rampaging before the token.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  6. #2706
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    TIL: The Race to World First doesnt exist.
    So the race to be the first in the world to beat the computer is not competing against the computer?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  7. #2707
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    I have mostly signed myself out of the discussion but it gets tiresome to see people claim that you could buy gold from Blizzard when it is from other players by trading game-time with them, Blizzard just facilitates and makes it safer, they set the price but does not control the supply or demand. They've removed illegal gold selling, illegal boosting, and illegal game-time trading by adding the token, a problem that was rampaging before the token.
    Blizz takes a cut, and the "credit" you get only works inside blizz, so blizz profits from it. Blizzards sells you gold with extra steps.

  8. #2708
    Quote Originally Posted by BattleHammer View Post
    Blizz takes a cut, and the "credit" you get only works inside blizz, so blizz profits from it. Blizzards sells you gold with extra steps.
    Just remember, there are people in this very thread claiming that even in a hypothetical scenario where Blizzard sell you a tier token for cash, and you trade that tier token to a vendor for a BIS tier item, that to them is still not P2W because you dont buy the GEAR from Blizzard, you buy the TOKEN, and the token doesnt grant you any power.

  9. #2709
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Just remember, there are people in this very thread claiming that even in a hypothetical scenario where Blizzard sell you a tier token for cash, and you trade that tier token to a vendor for a BIS tier item, that to them is still not P2W because you dont buy the GEAR from Blizzard, you buy the TOKEN, and the token doesnt grant you any power.
    It goes even farther than that. Many people in this thread believe that unless you yourself are putting in the work to clear a tier with your own raid group, then it's not "winning". "Winning" to them is putting in that work, and they don't care if other people are buying clears. Blizz could sell BIS gear for a tier on the shop and these people would still claim that it's not pay to win because their "winning" is earning their gear.

    By all of their definitions, chinese gacha games are not pay to win, since even though whales can buy tons of gear, free players can earn that gear, so the "earning it" part being available means it's not pay to win.
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  10. #2710
    This is why the mage tower appearances should come back (and all other FOMO removed stuff). People could just pay someone to play their characters and unlock it for them. There is no prestige to something purchased and not earned.

  11. #2711
    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Chungus View Post
    This is why the mage tower appearances should come back (and all other FOMO removed stuff). People could just pay someone to play their characters and unlock it for them. There is no prestige to something purchased and not earned.
    So because some people break the ToS, limited duration items shouldnt exist??? ...wut?

    Like atleast come up with a half good reason for your argument.

  12. #2712
    Nope , it's mostly pay not to play.

  13. #2713
    Quote Originally Posted by Elbob View Post
    So because some people break the ToS, limited duration items shouldnt exist??? ...wut?

    Like atleast come up with a half good reason for your argument.
    Should we allow steroids at the Olympics? Did those people really earn their medals if they cheated? Should we reward that kind of behavior with "prestige?"

  14. #2714
    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Chungus View Post
    Should we allow steroids at the Olympics? Did those people really earn their medals if they cheated? Should we reward that kind of behavior with "prestige?"
    What on earth does that have to do with anything this thread is discussing?
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  15. #2715
    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Chungus View Post
    Should we allow steroids at the Olympics? Did those people really earn their medals if they cheated? Should we reward that kind of behavior with "prestige?"
    No, we shouldn't, but we also don't go back to the 1987 Olympics, and say "bob was found guilty of PED use, so now anyone and everyone can get a gold medal for the 1987 Olympics"

  16. #2716
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BattleHammer View Post
    Blizz takes a cut, and the "credit" you get only works inside blizz, so blizz profits from it. Blizzards sells you gold with extra steps.
    Yes, Blizzard takes a cut in you not getting fucked over like people used to be by 3rd party groups. Blizzard sells you game-time/currency, nothing more. You can choose to sell it, and earn gold from another player. Stating that you get the gold from the company would mean that they are generating the gold for you, which they are not, another person is, by grinding, farming, auction house playing, whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Just remember, there are people in this very thread claiming that even in a hypothetical scenario where Blizzard sell you a tier token for cash, and you trade that tier token to a vendor for a BIS tier item, that to them is still not P2W because you dont buy the GEAR from Blizzard, you buy the TOKEN, and the token doesnt grant you any power.
    A purchased token for acquiring equipment from a vendor is NOT the same as the current token which you literally need another player to cash in on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    It goes even farther than that. Many people in this thread believe that unless you yourself are putting in the work to clear a tier with your own raid group, then it's not "winning". "Winning" to them is putting in that work, and they don't care if other people are buying clears. Blizz could sell BIS gear for a tier on the shop and these people would still claim that it's not pay to win because their "winning" is earning their gear.

    By all of their definitions, chinese gacha games are not pay to win, since even though whales can buy tons of gear, free players can earn that gear, so the "earning it" part being available means it's not pay to win.
    Now you are just being willfully mocking and silly. Your example is Pay2Win due to the ability to gain equipment at (very commonly extremely) increased level than the average player via methods directly supplied by the company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Chungus View Post
    This is why the mage tower appearances should come back (and all other FOMO removed stuff). People could just pay someone to play their characters and unlock it for them. There is no prestige to something purchased and not earned.
    You mean, this is why it shouldn't? Honestly, limited items should still be limited. If you miss out, you miss out. Demanding things you miss out on is like demanding the Scarab Lord title added back to be obtained because you weren't there when you could.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2021-10-09 at 05:26 AM.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  17. #2717
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Yes, Blizzard takes a cut in you not getting fucked over like people used to be by 3rd party groups. Blizzard sells you game-time/currency, nothing more. You can choose to sell it, and earn gold from another player. Stating that you get the gold from the company would mean that they are generating the gold for you, which they are not, another person is, by grinding, farming, auction house playing, whatever.
    Again, the "grinding, farming, AH playing, etc." is also within the control of Blizzard. They aren't directly giving people gold, but they also could make quest gold rewards and loot drops 1c if they so chose, driving down (or possibly up temporarily) the WoW token gold price. One incentivizes the other in this case with Blizzard coming out on top (You'll likely spend money on a subscription at some point to farm the gold to get "free" game-time, or you'll spend money that Blizzard actually gets regardless since the currency one could gain from selling it is only usuable within Battle.net or WoW)

    They control the means of how such a thing proliferates through the community, whether they have a direct hand in it is really comes down how you see it. Blizzard may not give the gold directly, but they do control both its supply and demand and could interfere if they felt it was necessary.

  18. #2718
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No, we shouldn't, but we also don't go back to the 1987 Olympics, and say "bob was found guilty of PED use, so now anyone and everyone can get a gold medal for the 1987 Olympics"
    Olympic medals can be stripped after the fact. While it isn't as long as 1987 they did strip a medal ten years after the fact in one instance. The long gaps come from people that were stripped of medals but later reinstated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Olympic_medals
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  19. #2719
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BattleHammer View Post
    Blizz takes a cut, and the "credit" you get only works inside blizz, so blizz profits from it. Blizzards sells you gold with extra steps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Again, the "grinding, farming, AH playing, etc." is also within the control of Blizzard. They aren't directly giving people gold, but they also could make quest gold rewards and loot drops 1c if they so chose, driving down (or possibly up temporarily) the WoW token gold price. One incentivizes the other in this case with Blizzard coming out on top (You'll likely spend money on a subscription at some point to farm the gold to get "free" game-time, or you'll spend money that Blizzard actually gets regardless since the currency one could gain from selling it is only usuable within Battle.net or WoW)

    They control the means of how such a thing proliferates through the community, whether they have a direct hand in it is really comes down how you see it. Blizzard may not give the gold directly, but they do control both its supply and demand and could interfere if they felt it was necessary.
    But Blizzard has a set reward scheme, and the price of the token is confirmed to be supply and demand, something that Blizzard is not controlling, nor are they controlling the need for another human being to get out working to obtain the gold. If you try to implement the fact that Blizzard made the game, and controls the design, then I'd guess the discussion of P2W and the likes wouldn't exist with your description, for it would be a common thing. The only interference they can do is to stop selling the token, even then, they cannot turn it off instantly as the current tokens on the market would need to be reimbursed, consumed, or sold first.

    There is no need to belittle another human being's work on trying to play the game by stating that Blizzard controls it anyways, so what you gain, earn, achieve is just Blizzard's doing, and not your own.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  20. #2720
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    They control the means of how such a thing proliferates through the community, whether they have a direct hand in it is really comes down how you see it. Blizzard may not give the gold directly, but they do control both its supply and demand and could interfere if they felt it was necessary.
    We have no proof that Blizzard changes the supply or demand of the tokens. The single balance Blizzard has put in place is the fact that the token isn't able to rise or fall more than 3% in an hour. Also, there was a point back in 2018 in Legion where EU realms ran out of tokens so that would indicate to me that they're a finite resource. Though every time I bring that up in this thread somebody says, "yeah WELL that's what they want you to think dude," and dismisses this point entirely. /shrug
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