1. #2721
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BattleHammer View Post
    Blizz takes a cut, and the "credit" you get only works inside blizz, so blizz profits from it. Blizzards sells you gold with extra steps.
    Yes, Blizzard takes a cut in you not getting fucked over like people used to be by 3rd party groups. Blizzard sells you game-time/currency, nothing more. You can choose to sell it, and earn gold from another player. Stating that you get the gold from the company would mean that they are generating the gold for you, which they are not, another person is, by grinding, farming, auction house playing, whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Just remember, there are people in this very thread claiming that even in a hypothetical scenario where Blizzard sell you a tier token for cash, and you trade that tier token to a vendor for a BIS tier item, that to them is still not P2W because you dont buy the GEAR from Blizzard, you buy the TOKEN, and the token doesnt grant you any power.
    A purchased token for acquiring equipment from a vendor is NOT the same as the current token which you literally need another player to cash in on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    It goes even farther than that. Many people in this thread believe that unless you yourself are putting in the work to clear a tier with your own raid group, then it's not "winning". "Winning" to them is putting in that work, and they don't care if other people are buying clears. Blizz could sell BIS gear for a tier on the shop and these people would still claim that it's not pay to win because their "winning" is earning their gear.

    By all of their definitions, chinese gacha games are not pay to win, since even though whales can buy tons of gear, free players can earn that gear, so the "earning it" part being available means it's not pay to win.
    Now you are just being willfully mocking and silly. Your example is Pay2Win due to the ability to gain equipment at (very commonly extremely) increased level than the average player via methods directly supplied by the company.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Chungus View Post
    This is why the mage tower appearances should come back (and all other FOMO removed stuff). People could just pay someone to play their characters and unlock it for them. There is no prestige to something purchased and not earned.
    You mean, this is why it shouldn't? Honestly, limited items should still be limited. If you miss out, you miss out. Demanding things you miss out on is like demanding the Scarab Lord title added back to be obtained because you weren't there when you could.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2021-10-09 at 05:26 AM.
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  2. #2722
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Yes, Blizzard takes a cut in you not getting fucked over like people used to be by 3rd party groups. Blizzard sells you game-time/currency, nothing more. You can choose to sell it, and earn gold from another player. Stating that you get the gold from the company would mean that they are generating the gold for you, which they are not, another person is, by grinding, farming, auction house playing, whatever.
    Again, the "grinding, farming, AH playing, etc." is also within the control of Blizzard. They aren't directly giving people gold, but they also could make quest gold rewards and loot drops 1c if they so chose, driving down (or possibly up temporarily) the WoW token gold price. One incentivizes the other in this case with Blizzard coming out on top (You'll likely spend money on a subscription at some point to farm the gold to get "free" game-time, or you'll spend money that Blizzard actually gets regardless since the currency one could gain from selling it is only usuable within Battle.net or WoW)

    They control the means of how such a thing proliferates through the community, whether they have a direct hand in it is really comes down how you see it. Blizzard may not give the gold directly, but they do control both its supply and demand and could interfere if they felt it was necessary.

  3. #2723
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No, we shouldn't, but we also don't go back to the 1987 Olympics, and say "bob was found guilty of PED use, so now anyone and everyone can get a gold medal for the 1987 Olympics"
    Olympic medals can be stripped after the fact. While it isn't as long as 1987 they did strip a medal ten years after the fact in one instance. The long gaps come from people that were stripped of medals but later reinstated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Olympic_medals
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  4. #2724
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BattleHammer View Post
    Blizz takes a cut, and the "credit" you get only works inside blizz, so blizz profits from it. Blizzards sells you gold with extra steps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Again, the "grinding, farming, AH playing, etc." is also within the control of Blizzard. They aren't directly giving people gold, but they also could make quest gold rewards and loot drops 1c if they so chose, driving down (or possibly up temporarily) the WoW token gold price. One incentivizes the other in this case with Blizzard coming out on top (You'll likely spend money on a subscription at some point to farm the gold to get "free" game-time, or you'll spend money that Blizzard actually gets regardless since the currency one could gain from selling it is only usuable within Battle.net or WoW)

    They control the means of how such a thing proliferates through the community, whether they have a direct hand in it is really comes down how you see it. Blizzard may not give the gold directly, but they do control both its supply and demand and could interfere if they felt it was necessary.
    But Blizzard has a set reward scheme, and the price of the token is confirmed to be supply and demand, something that Blizzard is not controlling, nor are they controlling the need for another human being to get out working to obtain the gold. If you try to implement the fact that Blizzard made the game, and controls the design, then I'd guess the discussion of P2W and the likes wouldn't exist with your description, for it would be a common thing. The only interference they can do is to stop selling the token, even then, they cannot turn it off instantly as the current tokens on the market would need to be reimbursed, consumed, or sold first.

    There is no need to belittle another human being's work on trying to play the game by stating that Blizzard controls it anyways, so what you gain, earn, achieve is just Blizzard's doing, and not your own.
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  5. #2725
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    They control the means of how such a thing proliferates through the community, whether they have a direct hand in it is really comes down how you see it. Blizzard may not give the gold directly, but they do control both its supply and demand and could interfere if they felt it was necessary.
    We have no proof that Blizzard changes the supply or demand of the tokens. The single balance Blizzard has put in place is the fact that the token isn't able to rise or fall more than 3% in an hour. Also, there was a point back in 2018 in Legion where EU realms ran out of tokens so that would indicate to me that they're a finite resource. Though every time I bring that up in this thread somebody says, "yeah WELL that's what they want you to think dude," and dismisses this point entirely. /shrug
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  6. #2726
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    We have no proof that Blizzard changes the supply or demand of the tokens. The single balance Blizzard has put in place is the fact that the token isn't able to rise or fall more than 3% in an hour. Also, there was a point back in 2018 in Legion where EU realms ran out of tokens so that would indicate to me that they're a finite resource. Though every time I bring that up in this thread somebody says, "yeah WELL that's what they want you to think dude," and dismisses this point entirely. /shrug
    Of course we have no proof. We have no way to prove either side other than what they say so arguing in favor of either side is pretty stupid, don't you think?

    And let's be real, it's not some kind of limited resource that can't be mined or something that disappears once used. It's a bunch of code that they could change right now if it pleases them. To pretend that it is would be about as folly as someone saying they totally manipulate it.

    All you have is their word. All I'm saying is they ultimately control it and could change at the flip of a switch. This isn't dismissing that point as both points can exist and one does not take away from the other, especially since we don't know.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    But Blizzard has a set reward scheme, and the price of the token is confirmed to be supply and demand, something that Blizzard is not controlling, nor are they controlling the need for another human being to get out working to obtain the gold. If you try to implement the fact that Blizzard made the game, and controls the design, then I'd guess the discussion of P2W and the likes wouldn't exist with your description, for it would be a common thing. The only interference they can do is to stop selling the token, even then, they cannot turn it off instantly as the current tokens on the market would need to be reimbursed, consumed, or sold first.

    There is no need to belittle another human being's work on trying to play the game by stating that Blizzard controls it anyways, so what you gain, earn, achieve is just Blizzard's doing, and not your own.
    They could also generate gold from thin air. It's well within their power if they felt the need to do so, such as the case of giving people back their lost gold and gear during the days of people's accounts getting hacked. I'm not saying they are or are not doing anything, but within the scope of their power and the limited visibility we as outsiders have, the only thing we have going to somewhat prove is their word of them saying they aren't interfering.

    Nobody's belittling anybody's work here. But acting as if it's not a sanctioned P2W element is a bit disingenuous as well. The game is both play-to-win and pay-to-win, some people prefer to do the work, others prefer to pay for it. This is coming from a guy who actually sold Mythic boosts.

    EDIT: To iterate, from my standpoint, is that WoW has always been both pay-to-win and play-to-win. The only difference between how things are now and how things were back before the WoW token was implemented was that using real money to purchase in-game currency, items, and services were bannable under the Terms of Service. Now, you have a legal (meaning within the ToS) way to purchase things. Buying boosts and gold back then was part of the seedy underbelly black market of WoW that most people did not want to risk doing but that also kept things relatively cheap and low due to its nature. Now, because they're a sanctioned way of doing so, it is the only reason why it's so rampant to the point that trade chat nowadays is used more for selling carries than it is selling in-game items as an alternative to the AH.
    Last edited by Ekis; 2021-10-09 at 07:00 AM.

  7. #2727
    yes its pretty simple

    it has wow token which is 100% p2w

    and im also of the minority that beleives cosmetics are also p2w , essentially anything behind a paywall (subscription is not really the same) is technically p2w, not everything has to be combat related...
    but idgaf anymore, sorry, not sorry.

  8. #2728
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Olympic medals can be stripped after the fact. While it isn't as long as 1987 they did strip a medal ten years after the fact in one instance. The long gaps come from people that were stripped of medals but later reinstated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...Olympic_medals
    Yes, and if you read what I'm saying, I'm cool with that part and agree with it. What they don't do is open up the same medals to an entirely new group of athlete's, some of whom didn't even compete at the games.

  9. #2729
    137 pages of the same people doing mental gymnastics to avoid admitting WoW is p2w but will jump at the opportunity to call every other mmo p2w for doing the exact same shit Blizzard is doing. I really don't understand it at all.

  10. #2730
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yes, and if you read what I'm saying, I'm cool with that part and agree with it. What they don't do is open up the same medals to an entirely new group of athlete's, some of whom didn't even compete at the games.
    The point is, you can't have prestigious FOMO content in a game that allows people to buy runs or pay someone to play their character. It's not a real accomplishment if some people just cheat their way through. Which means the entire concept of FOMO content does not work when paired with the WoW token.

    Most boosting is about gaining some limited time reward. The biggest offender is AOTC. Most people just buy that with token gold to get the mount. You'll see nonstop advertising of run after run after run right up until the deadline for AOTC.

    How can it be justified to lock that content forever, based on some idea that people "achieved" something by boosting, if it isn't a true achievement at all? Even if only 10% of people boosted through AOTC (probably more like 60-70% of people), it would still invalidate any idea of "I accomplished something difficult" for everyone else. Its "prestige" is tainted, undermining the idea of FOMO rewards in the process.

  11. #2731
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Eh, you do not buy gold directly from Blizzard, though.
    No? So buying tokens and selling them for gold isn't buying gold?

  12. #2732
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yes, and if you read what I'm saying, I'm cool with that part and agree with it. What they don't do is open up the same medals to an entirely new group of athlete's, some of whom didn't even compete at the games.
    Hasn't WoW been doing that from the start though by keeping old content, and old drops, open for anyone to get? Those prestigious things you cleared Mythic raids for can now be solo'd by someone who didn't even compete at the time you did.
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  13. #2733
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Now you are just being willfully mocking and silly. Your example is Pay2Win due to the ability to gain equipment at (very commonly extremely) increased level than the average player via methods directly supplied by the company.
    Not at all, this is literally the argument that several people have made at me now in favor of the WoW token and boosting. That even though you can buy basically anything you want in the game with real cash (as long as you go through a couple of steps to get there) then that does not count as "winning" nor does it compromise the integrity of the game because the REAL reward is the feeling of earning it yourself. I've been legitimately told by people that it doesn't matter if someone swiped has the same gear, achievements, mounts, etc. as them.

    It may not matter to them, but in the overall picture of what an MMO is, it matters a whole lot. When people feel their achievements are being cheapened by a plastic card swipe, they leave the game. I've said this numerous times, if you guys want to bury your head in the sand and let WoW lose even more than the 60% of the playerbase it's already lost, be my guest. Continue to defend Blizzard having a cozy relationship with boosters.

    You can pay real money to get equipment in the game. Does it matter whether it's from other players carrying you or from the cash shop? It certainly doesn't make a difference, considering it's |Money in -> Equipment out| AND THE ENTIRE PROCESS IS SANCTIONED BY BLIZZARD even if the boosting hustle is run by players. Don't try to pretend the gear being bought directly from the company store or from another player is some kind of important nuance. It's the company sanctioning gold buying, and it's the company who is the only one receiving actual money out of these transactions. Think about it. Really. Just turn on your brain for half a second.

    It's simply Chinese gacha pay to win garbage with an extra step to make players feel better about the systems pretty much having the same spending incentive and reward pipe.
    Last edited by Cthulhu 2020; 2021-10-09 at 03:45 PM.
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  14. #2734
    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Chungus View Post
    The point is, you can't have prestigious FOMO content in a game that allows people to buy runs or pay someone to play their character. It's not a real accomplishment if some people just cheat their way through. Which means the entire concept of FOMO content does not work when paired with the WoW token.

    Most boosting is about gaining some limited time reward. The biggest offender is AOTC. Most people just buy that with token gold to get the mount. You'll see nonstop advertising of run after run after run right up until the deadline for AOTC.

    How can it be justified to lock that content forever, based on some idea that people "achieved" something by boosting, if it isn't a true achievement at all? Even if only 10% of people boosted through AOTC (probably more like 60-70% of people), it would still invalidate any idea of "I accomplished something difficult" for everyone else. Its "prestige" is tainted, undermining the idea of FOMO rewards in the process.
    Blizzard does it this way to make sure people always buys wow tokens regulary, especially when new content arrives. And yes, most hard earned achivments means nothing, but they serve the purpose of enticing people to get boosted.

    Hide cool rewards behind certain achivs = people buy token.


    It would be awesome to see what would happen with wow token and the boosting services if Blizzard suddenly decided to drop m+, mythic raiding and keep with LFR+normal mode raiding & HC dungeons. Were most content was considered easy enough for most players. No more titles, mounts or gear hidden behind harder content. Its just there for everyone to collect. The only ones who could cry would be the few % doing high m+ keys & mythic raiding.

  15. #2735
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    I pay a subscription fee, therefore the game is Pay-2-win.
    Yes: that would be another irrelevant definition. You're trying to disagree with me but the funny thing is my argument is precisely that the definition itself is unimportant What is important is to not forget the the shop now sells ALL blizzard products with gold and sells electronic money with gold because whoever forgets that or pretends to forget that is misdirecting everyone away from the biggest reason boosting is so rampant to the point that all /2 channels in the entire game are unusable for the last 2-3 years at least even on medium sized realms.
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  16. #2736
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Yes: that would be another irrelevant definition. You're trying to disagree with me but the funny thing is my argument is precisely that the definition itself is unimportant What is important is to not forget the the shop now sells ALL blizzard products with gold and sells electronic money with gold because whoever forgets that or pretends to forget that is misdirecting everyone away from the biggest reason boosting is so rampant to the point that all /2 channels in the entire game are unusable for the last 2-3 years at least even on medium sized realms.
    The definition of a term is never irrelevant. That is the entire reason why definitions exists. Only the level boost from the shop is "pay to win". The rest are cosmetics and are irrelevant to character power. Are they micro transactions? Yes. But the term "pay to win" is not a catch all for micro transactions. Or a catch all for "things I don't like that are sold for money".

    Boosts are everywhere in the game because they are popular and M+ allows people to be boosted for rewards. As has been pointed out here before they started to grow in popularity before the token was introduced to the game. The token helped grow that popularity but pointing to the token as the cause is silly. Because it ignores the game systems that encouraged it even before the token existed.
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  17. #2737
    Quote Originally Posted by Mardux View Post
    I pay a subscription fee, therefore the game is Pay-2-win.
    Expansions are the ultimate p2w feature. For £30-40 I get access to 10 levels and content with better gear. No-one can match my character's power unless they pay the same.

  18. #2738
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The definition of a term is never irrelevant.
    Know the phrase "playing with words"? After a point we know very well what pay to win is and how far it can be stretched (it can be "pay to win" to just have a better computer or ping or in another definition it can be "pay to win" only if you directly pay Blizzard with a credit card to advertise your name on TV) so the point is how far it has gone and not how any random person defines it because that's just playing with words.

    The rest of your message is burying its head in the sand; the raiding gametype is almost exactly the same since TBC in terms of allowing carrying a couple of people by a very good guild; dismissing as unimportant the fact the shop can make people's gold able to buy all Activision Products including all WoW products is pretty much burying head in sand.
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  19. #2739
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Know the phrase "playing with words"?.
    So I am the one burying my head in the sand yet you are the one dismissing definitions? Lol. Carries are not the same since TBC. Even back then people would do Auction runs. The moose mount is where raid carries started to go mainstream and even had "Blizzard support" of the streamer that gave out free carries each week for them. 5-man carries started with Challenge modes in MoP. Tougher in MoP but easier with WoD. The garrison printing money is what allowed it to really go mainstream then 4 months after launch the token was introduced. But it was still the garrison money farm that propped up and supplied all of that gold.

    It is unimportant that gold can be turned into Battle.net currency. Redeeming a gift card isn't pay to win. Being able to buy CoD with wow gold is not paying to win. These is your entire problem. You ignore the definition of phrases and then use it as a catch all for all monetary transactions you consider bad. That isn't how anything works and all the fancy word play you keep using won't stop you from being wrong.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #2740
    You can twist it up, down, left, right, six ways to Sunday even

    You can call it by any words you want

    You can use $$$ to buy a token. Gold from a token to buy boosts and have the max ilevel currently in game (with all the achieves, mounts and titles that come with it). Blizz is completely cool with this and allows it.

    Buying the best gear in game with $$$$ is literally the definition of pay 2 win............

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