1. #2741
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    You can twist it up, down, left, right, six ways to Sunday even

    You can call it by any words you want

    You can use $$$ to buy a token. Gold from a token to buy boosts and have the max ilevel currently in game (with all the achieves, mounts and titles that come with it). Blizz is completely cool with this and allows it.

    Buying the best gear in game with $$$$ is literally the definition of pay 2 win............
    Now replace "token" with "tcg loot" and it will be the same. With the exception that you can't get max ilevel since you are still at mercy of RNG.

    That is of course assuming your measurement of success.
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  2. #2742
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So I am the one burying my head in the sand yet you are the one dismissing definitions? Lol. Carries are not the same since TBC. Even back then people would do Auction runs. The moose mount is where raid carries started to go mainstream and even had "Blizzard support" of the streamer that gave out free carries each week for them. 5-man carries started with Challenge modes in MoP. Tougher in MoP but easier with WoD. The garrison printing money is what allowed it to really go mainstream then 4 months after launch the token was introduced. But it was still the garrison money farm that propped up and supplied all of that gold.

    It is unimportant that gold can be turned into Battle.net currency. Redeeming a gift card isn't pay to win. Being able to buy CoD with wow gold is not paying to win. These is your entire problem. You ignore the definition of phrases and then use it as a catch all for all monetary transactions you consider bad. That isn't how anything works and all the fancy word play you keep using won't stop you from being wrong.
    The fact you use the meme-hate against garrison to supposedly prove the token in relation to shop is unimportant makes it worse for your argument.

    The garrison was just another source for gold; it has absolutely nothing to do with pay to win; it only affects inflation.

    The factor you ignore or diminish that is directly related to pay to win is that boosters can buy stuff on the shop.
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  3. #2743
    Yes, next question. Also remember when blizzard said their allegations were unfounded and politically driven? Never forget
    Quote Originally Posted by BigSuze View Post
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  4. #2744
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Now replace "token" with "tcg loot"
    We covered that weak argument. Now replace "tcg loot" and "token" with "pay someone to play for you" and every game in the universe is pay to win.

    The fact is multiple times worse now is what really matters and not how pay to win is defined because hell: not even all countries had access to tcg.
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  5. #2745
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So I am the one burying my head in the sand yet you are the one dismissing definitions? Lol. Carries are not the same since TBC. Even back then people would do Auction runs. The moose mount is where raid carries started to go mainstream and even had "Blizzard support" of the streamer that gave out free carries each week for them. 5-man carries started with Challenge modes in MoP. Tougher in MoP but easier with WoD. The garrison printing money is what allowed it to really go mainstream then 4 months after launch the token was introduced. But it was still the garrison money farm that propped up and supplied all of that gold.

    It is unimportant that gold can be turned into Battle.net currency. Redeeming a gift card isn't pay to win. Being able to buy CoD with wow gold is not paying to win. These is your entire problem. You ignore the definition of phrases and then use it as a catch all for all monetary transactions you consider bad. That isn't how anything works and all the fancy word play you keep using won't stop you from being wrong.
    We disagree a lot which is totally fine and even enjoyable, but we agree for with the timelines here. Other than the odd here and there carry over the years, the moose was when we actually set ourselves up to regularly sell runs.

    We don't agree on everything else, but this I agree with completely. Could be different for others, but it lunes up with my personal experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    The fact you use the meme-hate against garrison to supposedly prove the token in relation to shop is unimportant makes it worse for your argument.

    The garrison was just another source for gold; it has absolutely nothing to do with pay to win; it only affects inflation.

    The factor you ignore or diminish that is directly related to pay to win is that boosters can buy stuff on the shop.
    What it changed is the landscape of carries - suddenly, people who had never seen more than 5k gold had 500,000 gold. It wasn't redistribution of wealth, but the creation of it from nothing.

    One way to look at it is certain middle eastern countries that hit it BIG with oil, and within 5 years were faced with a very serious obesity problem. People that previously lived a humble life had tens of thousands of dollars in their account every month from the government, and they could buy things they previously could not. The reason I consider it a good comparison is the scale of the change, and how swiftly it happened. They didn't change anything about the way they lived their life, they just suddenly had huge amounts of wealth with no effort.

    Just one addition - I didn't HATE the garrison, and I wasn't hungry for gold so I didn't even take advantage of it at all. So I'm not on some hate train, and have regularly defended WoD since day one - I personally genuinely enjoyed WoD.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-10-10 at 06:51 AM.

  6. #2746
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What it changed is the landscape of carries - suddenly, people who had never seen more than 5k gold had 500,000 gold.
    No; that was the meme but it was clearly wrong; and I was pretty sure from back then that it was wrong because I was good at gold-making since expansions before WoD.
    First of all: that's just some moderate extra inflation; even if you drop gold then most people will have gold; BOEs or whatever will just be more expensive anyway.
    Most importantly (though hard to prove to those not good at gold-making): it's not even that much gold; I was making at least 20X that on the AH per character.
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  7. #2747
    Is WoW Pay 2 Win?


    Nope.
    'Words do not win wars. That is a tragedy.'

  8. #2748
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    We covered that weak argument. Now replace "tcg loot" and "token" with "pay someone to play for you" and every game in the universe is pay to win.

    The fact is multiple times worse now is what really matters and not how pay to win is defined because hell: not even all countries had access to tcg.
    No, you didn't cover anything simply because you don't understand the root of the problem. Multiple times worse is because the amount of fomo in the game and game overall difficulty going up.

    People didn't give a damn about physical TCG cards, they just bought the loot code. Or they simply bought boosts directly.

    Boosting is DEMAND DRIVEN. This is a fact. Your arguments are nonsensical simply because of this.
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  9. #2749
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    You can twist it up, down, left, right, six ways to Sunday even

    You can call it by any words you want

    You can use $$$ to buy a token. Gold from a token to buy boosts and have the max ilevel currently in game (with all the achieves, mounts and titles that come with it). Blizz is completely cool with this and allows it.

    Buying the best gear in game with $$$$ is literally the definition of pay 2 win............
    There is some core differences though to "classic" pay to win games:
    a) The demand of boosting is entirely player driven. And b) You still need people to do the content. Just having money gives you nothing, if you do not have people, who are offering those runs.

    And c) As we have seen with classic, no, not having the token doesn't solve the issue either. People will buy it, and just buy their gold from much more dubious unsecured sources. Or will break the rules of the game themselves doing the botting, and just hope, Blizzard just won't do anything.

  10. #2750
    Depends what your definition of win is, seeing as you can't really "win" in WoW.

    If you get your character to where you want through gold you bought, then yes, it's P2W.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Depends what your definition of win is, seeing as you can't really "win" in WoW.

    If you get your character to where you want through gold you bought, then yes, it's P2W.
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  11. #2751
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Boosting is DEMAND DRIVEN. This is a fact. Your arguments are nonsensical simply because of this.
    You can insert your fingers in your ears all you want, demand is irrelevant if supply is illegal.
    Not everyone wants to commit tax fraud pre-token in order to satisfy your argument.
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  12. #2752
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    As I said above, that is not p2w at all.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It's not even "indirect P2W".

    It's simply getting other players to help you by giving them something of value in return. That is all.
    So there is no such thing as pay to win unless it's literally "WIN GAME BUTTON - PRESS FOR 59.99" Cool man, good job.

  13. #2753
    wow is not pay2win but:

    you can flick your credit card and buy token for gold
    pay top guilds and various boosters to take your fresh green geared toon to all end up content and get full gear with end of raid mounts etc.
    You can do that and have what the top 10 guilds in the world have and do it before the top1000 guilds and their player even manage to complete.

    But yes wow is not pay2win.

    gimme a break.

  14. #2754
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Im not talking from a moralistic pov lol. Were talking about p2w, try and keep up. P2w requires the games maker to profit from selling things to the players to make the game easier. Buying gold from 3rd party sellers isnt p2w. Buying it from the games maker is.
    The number of fucking hoops you are willing to jump through to fit your ridiculous definition of pay to win is downright commendable.

    Who gets the money is completely irrelevant. If it is pay to win now, it has always been pay to win because—and here's the critical part—the definition of 'winning' according to your's and others' laughable checklist has NEVER CHANGED.

    If buying boosts so that you are at the SAME ILEVEL AT MOST as other people is pay to win now, then it was also pay to win when the token was not available.
    If buying boosts to get AT BEST as high an arena ranking as other people is is pay to win now, then it was also pay to win when the token was not available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    For one, buying boosts isnt p2w. Buying gold is. Wow wasnt a p2w game before the token, because Blizzard wasnt making the money. Paying a 3rd party real money for gold, in violation of TOS, doesnt make a game p2w... gd.
    So, buying a mount for a booster wouldn't have been pay to win according to your logic. You're a parody.
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  15. #2755
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    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    That makes no sense. In cata it was extremely suitable for boosting because the best guilds could carry one to two people at least.
    Cata did not have M+. Thus the demand for boosting was far more limited.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by saeadeb View Post
    So there is no such thing as pay to win unless it's literally "WIN GAME BUTTON - PRESS FOR 59.99" Cool man, good job.
    That's not what I argued at all.

    pay to win simply means that there an inextricable association being paying and "winning" (however you choose to define winning). In other words, if you don't pay you can't really win, or, if you can win without paying, it is only with a ridiculous amount of effort.

    The token is not pay 2 win because it just doesn't fit that criterion. And this due entirely to the fact that when you pay $$ for a token, you're not buying from the game, but from another player.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    "Enhancing your character in a way no-one can match unless they also pay money" is the one definition that has been universally accepted in this thread, except by you apparently.
    Boy, I wish this were true. The reason this thread is approaching 2500 posts is because some people refuse to accept this and insist on coming up with their asinine definitions....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    For one, buying boosts isnt p2w. Buying gold is. Wow wasnt a p2w game before the token, because Blizzard wasnt making the money.
    And wow still isn't p2w after the token because Blizzard aren't the ones being paid for the gold. Blizzard get a cut of the money as facilitators of the transaction, but it's other players that are being paid for the gold.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by psyquest View Post
    wow is not pay2win but:

    you can flick your credit card and buy token for gold
    pay top guilds and various boosters to take your fresh green geared toon to all end up content and get full gear with end of raid mounts etc.
    You can do that and have what the top 10 guilds in the world have and do it before the top1000 guilds and their player even manage to complete.

    But yes wow is not pay2win.

    gimme a break.
    You clearly don't understand what pay2win actually is. Just because there is a payment involved and some sort of "winning" happening is not nearly adequate to qualify something as pay2win.

    pay2win means that you need to pay if you want to win. The entire concept of winning via a boost by other players is the antithesis of pay2win because the players who are the actual winners are the boosters, and not only did they not rely on paying to get there, they could not get there by paying at all.

  16. #2756
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Cata did not have M+. Thus the demand for boosting was far more limited.
    Might be true, but the supply might be multiple times more than that difference, because now the shop can let boosters buy all activision blizzard products including all wow services.
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  17. #2757
    Yeah you basically have a super limited view of pay to win. If one person can gear up 10x faster by paying, which you can, don't argue silly points, then it's p2w.

  18. #2758
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    Quote Originally Posted by saeadeb View Post
    Yeah you basically have a super limited view of pay to win.
    No, I have a very clear understanding of what pay 2 win is, whereas you clearly do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by saeadeb View Post
    If one person can gear up 10x faster by paying, which you can, don't argue silly points, then it's p2w.
    1) 10x faster than what? (in pay2win it is faster than all other players except those who also pay)
    2) by paying whom? (in pay2win you pay the game, not other players)

    Your argument fails horribly on both these counts. As I say, you clearly don't understand what pay2win is, even if you're convinced you do. Pro-tip - go and do some investigations to see what the general consensus on the subject is before trying to come up with your own conclusions.

  19. #2759
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    No, I have a very clear understanding of what pay 2 win is, whereas you clearly do not.



    1) 10x faster than what? (in pay2win it is faster than all other players except those who also pay)
    2) by paying whom? (in pay2win you pay the game, not other players)

    Your argument fails horribly on both these counts. As I say, you clearly don't understand what pay2win is, even if you're convinced you do. Pro-tip - go and do some investigations to see what the general consensus on the subject is before trying to come up with your own conclusions.
    It doesnt matter that other players get the money(and Blizzard a cut of it), its still a paid service to skip content in order to get better gear, mounts, titles and achivs. You keep going on with that argument, evne though you know Blizzard takes a cut from it. It doesnt matter that random player X gets money, its a paid service to boost your character to obtain important things that enhances your character. The end result is the same anyway. If Blizzard took 100% or just 5% of the prize, the end result is the same.

    As in most p2w games that arent obvious p2w schemes(so ppl like you can defend it for them), you can play the game and obtain everything, but it takes alot of time. Or, you can pay up, skip everything and just get it in a short amount of time.

    Theres lots of games out there with this formula. You can play FIFA and generate points to buy cards(and get better players for your team), but by the time you have played enough matches(won matches) and have a good team, the next FIFA is probably coming out. Much better to just shell out real money for cards.

    Same in wow. You can either pay up & get boosted to obtain mounts,titles, gear, achivs OR go the slow path of having a guild, meeting up for raids and all that stuff. Then maybe by the end of patch you might have obtained the stuff you wanted. Or you cop out and buy it.

    its an especially powerful formula in wow cause if you actually play the game, you might miss out on certain mounts/titles/achivs due to lots of reasons. but Blizzard have these rewards there, and oh hey - they have this amazing token you can get that lets you get this stuff while watching netflix. So its perfect to have seasonal rewards, so people get tempted to buy it.

    Theres a hell of a lot negative issues regarding the token that effects the game in a bad way, but thats not thet topic of this thread.

  20. #2760
    Yes, wow is p2w.
    if you consider wow gold to be the same as p2w cash currency, which it is, then you can easily call it p2w.
    you can farm cash on almost(99.9% but I am sure someone will find an example that isn't, so i'll say "almost") all p2w mmos shops at a ratio similar to wow's cash farm

    The price of wow gold is also calculated exactly like all companies calculate their currency/cash/p2w money, which makes it much easier and cheaper to just buy whatever you want with real money but not enough to completely devaluate it and generate infinite inflation, which is the goal of wow's systems: to create reasons for people to want to spend their money to buy tokens

    thus, p2w.

    Wow's current p2w system has a very similar ratio to that of Genshin Impact for example, which is a VERY p2w gacha
    Last edited by Nuba; 2021-10-10 at 04:05 PM.

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