1. #2761
    I pay real money to Blizzard that I can then use to get some of the best gear in the game. Pretty clear cut case to me and I ain't complaining either, it's capitalism at its best.

  2. #2762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    The price of wow gold is also calculated exactly like all companies calculate their currency/cash/p2w money, which makes it much easier and cheaper to just buy whatever you want with real money but not enough to completely devaluate it and generate infinite inflation
    That's a load of nonsense. The price of tokens is determined by supply and demand. It's the compromise between what players on the one end of the gold-making-competency spectrum see as good value to be paying for gold, and what those on the other end see as good value to be selling gold at. Ergo, for some players it is easier and cheaper to just buy it, but for most players, it's easier just to acquire it in-game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    which is the goal of wow's systems: to create reasons for people to want to spend their money to buy tokens
    That is conspiracy theory thinking. I would argue that the game itself is pretty agnostic towards tokens. Of course Blizzard saw an opportunity to generate cash with them, but I don't see any evidence that making money was ever their primary objective or that they try to push people to buy them, preferring instead to not tamper and just let token transactions happen naturally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    thus, p2w.
    p2w sets the system up such that those who don't pay are effectively excluded from being able to "win". The token does not do that. Yes, it is option for inclusion, but it is hardly an exclusive option. Hell it's not even the preferred option, given that the vast majority of players achieving these things, especially those who do it first (ie the actual winners) do it entirely without tokens.

    thus, not p2w.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuba View Post
    Wow's current p2w system has a very similar ratio to that of Genshin Impact for example, which is a VERY p2w gacha
    Never played it, but from the description, you buy lootboxes from the game that have a direct impact on your power. That sounds very different to wow tokens. As I understand it, a gacha system in WoW would be like paying money to basically open the weekly loot vault as many times as you can afford...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Lol what do you even say to this.. of course its a paid service and blizzard profits off of it.. This is the problem with this discussion, people cant even admit the token is a paid service lmao
    The "paid service" is them facilitating the transaction - linking a buyer and seller.

    A good real-life analogy is airbnb. They don't provide anyone with accommodation, they simply provide a platform for people seeking accommodation to find those providing accommodation, and take a cut for doing so. In the same way, the token isn't providing the gold.

    If you could hop onto the Blizzard shop and literally buy gold which the game then generated for you, without the listing of the token on the AH and some other person paying gold for it on the end, then sure that would very much be pay to win.

    Honestly, I don't see how you guys don't get this very basic concept. I suspect it's just plain old stubborness

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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    complains about 3rd party goldselling while defending Blizzards token. Nice. How can you call that cancer and not the token?
    I have explained it. How can you not grasp such a simple concept?

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    I mean come on, the game is nothing but a lobby for boosting and carries these days. Its everywhere non stop 24/7. Its a total shitshow sanctioned by Blizzard and defended by the likes of you. For what? So "some" players can play wow for free? Give me a break. most people that interact with the token is not people that thinks about something like that.
    Gross exaggeration lacking in any substance.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Its random player thinking "oh I buy this token, sell it and get free gear/mount/achivs/titles? cool lets go. Enough people cleary does it too, cause its a constant shitshow ingame.
    Stop being disingenuous. It demonstrates not only the fact that your argument is shit, but it also destroys your credibility as an honest commentator.

    Tokens patently do not give you "free gear/mount/achivs/titles". They gives you gold. Gold is that by no means exclusive to token buyers and is in fact pretty trivial to acquire without paying a cent.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Blizzard clearly and willfully creates game mechanics with the token in mind and dont give a shit if sub numbers drops.
    like what exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Theres enough people wanting to boost for the rewards. So instead of making a quality game(so people stay), they can have way less players and manage just fine.

    Makes sense really. Why give 100% when you can halfass it and rely on boosted service sales? Without the token, boosting wouldnt be as big as it is today. Its like the whole endgame at this point.
    Sorry but I just don't buy into this conspiracy theory thinking.

  3. #2763
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post

    You clearly don't understand what pay2win actually is. Just because there is a payment involved and some sort of "winning" happening is not nearly adequate to qualify something as pay2win.

    pay2win means that you need to pay if you want to win. The entire concept of winning via a boost by other players is the antithesis of pay2win because the players who are the actual winners are the boosters, and not only did they not rely on paying to get there, they could not get there by paying at all.

    I think you disagree with people that dont see thing the way you want. wow is about end game and conquering the hardest difficulty. this use to mean being with equally skilled players to do that. Winning is also about getting the gear to do great dps and do well in arena. Guess what? All this can actually be bought with cash.

    So I am afraid I completely disagree with you. wow is pay2win and dont bother answering we will never see eye to eye on this subject.

  4. #2764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The "paid service" is them facilitating the transaction - linking a buyer and seller.

    A good real-life analogy is airbnb. They don't provide anyone with accommodation, they simply provide a platform for people seeking accommodation to find those providing accommodation, and take a cut for doing so. In the same way, the token isn't providing the gold.

    If you could hop onto the Blizzard shop and literally buy gold which the game then generated for you, without the listing of the token on the AH and some other person paying gold for it on the end, then sure that would very much be pay to win.

    Honestly, I don't see how you guys don't get this very basic concept. I suspect it's just plain old stubborness
    Blizzard is still making money on the transaction of gold. Theyre selling the service. Theres a reason the token is more expensive than a month of game time.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  5. #2765
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    That's a load of nonsense. The price of tokens is determined by supply and demand. It's the compromise between what players on the one end of the gold-making-competency spectrum see as good value to be paying for gold, and what those on the other end see as good value to be selling gold at. Ergo, for some players it is easier and cheaper to just buy it, but for most players, it's easier just to acquire it in-game.



    That is conspiracy theory thinking. I would argue that the game itself is pretty agnostic towards tokens. Of course Blizzard saw an opportunity to generate cash with them, but I don't see any evidence that making money was ever their primary objective or that they try to push people to buy them, preferring instead to not tamper and just let token transactions happen naturally.



    p2w sets the system up such that those who don't pay are effectively excluded from being able to "win". The token does not do that. Yes, it is option for inclusion, but it is hardly an exclusive option. Hell it's not even the preferred option, given that the vast majority of players achieving these things, especially those who do it first (ie the actual winners) do it entirely without tokens.

    thus, not p2w.



    Never played it, but from the description, you buy lootboxes from the game that have a direct impact on your power. That sounds very different to wow tokens. As I understand it, a gacha system in WoW would be like paying money to basically open the weekly loot vault as many times as you can afford...

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    The "paid service" is them facilitating the transaction - linking a buyer and seller.

    A good real-life analogy is airbnb. They don't provide anyone with accommodation, they simply provide a platform for people seeking accommodation to find those providing accommodation, and take a cut for doing so. In the same way, the token isn't providing the gold.

    If you could hop onto the Blizzard shop and literally buy gold which the game then generated for you, without the listing of the token on the AH and some other person paying gold for it on the end, then sure that would very much be pay to win.

    Honestly, I don't see how you guys don't get this very basic concept. I suspect it's just plain old stubborness

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    I have explained it. How can you not grasp such a simple concept?



    Gross exaggeration lacking in any substance.



    Stop being disingenuous. It demonstrates not only the fact that your argument is shit, but it also destroys your credibility as an honest commentator.

    Tokens patently do not give you "free gear/mount/achivs/titles". They gives you gold. Gold is that by no means exclusive to token buyers and is in fact pretty trivial to acquire without paying a cent.



    like what exactly?



    Sorry but I just don't buy into this conspiracy theory thinking.
    dude, get over yourself. This is really not complicated. This is a MMORPG where the endgame is to obtain better gear, mounts, titles & achivments from tackeling challenging content with others.

    The token opens up to give a big F to that. Buy token, get everything, call it a day. It doesnt matter one bit that a selected few gets money out of it.Worst example is probably gladiator title. everyone that wants it just buy tokens and get it.

    In mere seconds you can get 120k gold in a few clicks. most players dont go out and grind that in short time, you know that. why even bother with it when you can buy token?

  6. #2766
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyquest View Post
    I think you disagree with people that dont see thing the way you want. wow is about end game and conquering the hardest difficulty. this use to mean being with equally skilled players to do that. Winning is also about getting the gear to do great dps and do well in arena. Guess what? All this can actually be bought with cash.
    You can buy boosts to skip a ton of content and the learning of your class that goes with it, sure. You can then wait for others to clear the current content and pay them gold to carry you through instances for the loot and undeserved achievements. Okay, so you've breezed through all but the final stretch of leveling and cheesed your way through acquiring some level of gear, but all at the likely cost of not getting adept at your class and role. The boost saved you some time, but the carries did not. You're also at the mercy of RNG, so your gear acquisition could take more or less time than others, whether they're also getting carried of if they're actively engaging and keeping up in the instance runs. Since you're not gaining any advantage time-wise, you may actually be doing a disservice to yourself by relying on the advanced skill of others and not honing your ability to excel in your class/role.

    Looks to me like the boosts and carries are escorting you up to endgame, but not providing you with any edge over all the players with access to the exact same gear when it comes time to participate in the endgame. The player who utilised their skill to obtain the same gear as you, or even slightly worse gear, will always have the advantage simply because they elected to not take shortcuts and thus gained experience.

  7. #2767
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    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    You can buy boosts to skip a ton of content and the learning of your class that goes with it, sure. You can then wait for others to clear the current content and pay them gold to carry you through instances for the loot and undeserved achievements. Okay, so you've breezed through all but the final stretch of leveling and cheesed your way through acquiring some level of gear, but all at the likely cost of not getting adept at your class and role. The boost saved you some time, but the carries did not. You're also at the mercy of RNG, so your gear acquisition could take more or less time than others, whether they're also getting carried of if they're actively engaging and keeping up in the instance runs. Since you're not gaining any advantage time-wise, you may actually be doing a disservice to yourself by relying on the advanced skill of others and not honing your ability to excel in your class/role.

    Looks to me like the boosts and carries are escorting you up to endgame, but not providing you with any edge over all the players with access to the exact same gear when it comes time to participate in the endgame. The player who utilised their skill to obtain the same gear as you, or even slightly worse gear, will always have the advantage simply because they elected to not take shortcuts and thus gained experience.
    Carries dont save time? Lmao such nonsense
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  8. #2768
    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    You can buy boosts to skip a ton of content and the learning of your class that goes with it, sure. You can then wait for others to clear the current content and pay them gold to carry you through instances for the loot and undeserved achievements. Okay, so you've breezed through all but the final stretch of leveling and cheesed your way through acquiring some level of gear, but all at the likely cost of not getting adept at your class and role. The boost saved you some time, but the carries did not. You're also at the mercy of RNG, so your gear acquisition could take more or less time than others, whether they're also getting carried of if they're actively engaging and keeping up in the instance runs. Since you're not gaining any advantage time-wise, you may actually be doing a disservice to yourself by relying on the advanced skill of others and not honing your ability to excel in your class/role.

    Looks to me like the boosts and carries are escorting you up to endgame, but not providing you with any edge over all the players with access to the exact same gear when it comes time to participate in the endgame. The player who utilised their skill to obtain the same gear as you, or even slightly worse gear, will always have the advantage simply because they elected to not take shortcuts and thus gained experience.
    Imagine a decent wow player. Someone who can carry his own weight in the game, be it pvp and/or pve. This player got shite gear. Lacks certain achivs also that is required to join groups for various content. He can either play the game and gear up & obtain relevant achivs up until he finally gets a spot to clear bosses that gives BiS/mount/titles. Lots of hours required, and some luck especially if you start out alone.

    OR

    he can just buy token(s) and get all of this in a couple of nights and a few weeks. Instead of doing korthia catch up gearing. instead of doing m+ after m+ with randoms were its a decent chance it all goes to hell(without your fault), join raids were you rely on 20 other people or grind BG/arena all day all night for honor & conquest.


    Its easy logic. "Do I want to commit weeks of slowly gearing up, earning my gear/achivs or just buy tokens and get boosted to relevant stage?

  9. #2769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Carries dont save time? Lmao such nonsense
    Exactly how is that nonsense? You can't do anything else with your character during that time, and there's no guarantee the instance will be cleared any quicker than any other group.

    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post

    he can just buy token(s) and get all of this in a couple of nights and a few weeks. Instead of doing korthia catch up gearing. instead of doing m+ after m+ with randoms were its a decent chance it all goes to hell(without your fault), join raids were you rely on 20 other people or grind BG/arena all day all night for honor & conquest.

    Its easy logic. "Do I want to commit weeks of slowly gearing up, earning my gear/achivs or just buy tokens and get boosted to relevant stage?
    In your own scenario here it is taking weeks for both players to gear up. You're also assuming that everyone does randoms instead of having friends or a guild to run with. I'll give you that a carry should have less risk of failure than a random, but still ignoring that taking such a passive role adversely affects your ability to engage in the content at that relevant stage.
    Last edited by saintminya; 2021-10-10 at 07:45 PM.

  10. #2770
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    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    Exactly how is that nonsense? You can't do anything else with your character during that time, and there's no guarantee the instance will be cleared any quicker than any other group.
    Because carries save a toooon of time obviously lol.. what takes more time, progression, or carries?
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  11. #2771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Because carries save a toooon of time obviously lol.. what takes more time, progression, or carries?
    That is entirely dependent on the group, and how much of a deadweight you are in that carry.

  12. #2772
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    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    That is entirely dependent on the group, and how much of a deadweight you are in that carry.
    You seriously think carries take more time than progression? Have you eveeer been apart of progression???? What an idiotic assertion..
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  13. #2773
    It's really a big stretch to call tokens P2W and you can see that in the evolution of this thread as people start calling it indirect p2w or p2w "features" or whatever other term they come up with.
    The gold comes from other players. The gear comes from other players.
    The carries are performed by other players who can clear content so easily they can drag dead weight through it.
    The only thing your money gets you is a token you can sell to another player.
    The gold is already in the game, along with the gear and skilled players who can clear content for you.
    If I didn't farm 10's of millions of gold over the years, along with others, your tokens have no value.
    If raiders didn't farm BoE's to sell on the AH, your gold has no value.
    If PvPers, raiders and M+ players didn't carry you through their respective content, your gold has no value.

    Your cash does not create anything directly, nor does it directly make players stronger. It just lets you trade game time for gold with other players in a safe and non-ToS violation manner.

  14. #2774
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mokrath View Post
    Your cash does not create anything directly, nor does it directly make players stronger. It just lets you trade game time for gold with other players in a safe and non-ToS violation manner.
    Your cash buys gold which allows you to buy power lol. All of your "ifs" are non sequiturs.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  15. #2775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    You seriously think carries take more time than progression? Have you eveeer been apart of progression???? What an idiotic assertion..
    I only ever run dungeons and raids with friends, so I wouldn't know how fast or slow a carry can go. It is absurd to assume that there could never be any variability in the time it takes for one group to clear whatever instance versus the other though. Are you just assuming that any group not hosting a carry must have inferior gear or unskilled players?

  16. #2776
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    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    I only ever run dungeons and raids with friends, so I wouldn't know how fast or slow a carry can go. It is absurd to assume that there could never be any variability in the time it takes for one group to clear whatever instance versus the otherr. Are you just assuming that any group not hosting a carry must have inferior gear or unskilled players?
    Im saying your assertion that progression is quicker than carries is pretty crazy. Almost like you have no idea what youre talking about.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  17. #2777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Im saying your assertion that progression is quicker than carries is pretty crazy. Almost like you have no idea what youre talking about.
    I'm not the one making such blanket statements here. In fact, I never said that any run, be it progression or a m+ for kicks, is automatically faster or slower than a run hosted by self-proclaimed carriers. For all you know, one or more of those members in that carry group could be among the guildies/homies I run with.

  18. #2778
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Imagine a decent wow player. Someone who can carry his own weight in the game, be it pvp and/or pve. This player got shite gear. Lacks certain achivs also that is required to join groups for various content. He can either play the game and gear up & obtain relevant achivs up until he finally gets a spot to clear bosses that gives BiS/mount/titles. Lots of hours required, and some luck especially if you start out alone.

    OR

    he can just buy token(s) and get all of this in a couple of nights and a few weeks. Instead of doing korthia catch up gearing. instead of doing m+ after m+ with randoms were its a decent chance it all goes to hell(without your fault), join raids were you rely on 20 other people or grind BG/arena all day all night for honor & conquest.


    Its easy logic. "Do I want to commit weeks of slowly gearing up, earning my gear/achivs or just buy tokens and get boosted to relevant stage?
    Isn't it going to take about the same amount of time? Paying for carries doesn't get around the time-gating of raids or limits on the vault.

  19. #2779
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    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    I'm not the one making such blanket statements here. In fact, I never said that any run, be it progression or a m+ for kicks, is automatically faster or slower than a run hosted by self-proclaimed carriers. For all you know, one or more of those members in that carry group could be among the guildies/homies I run with.
    Stop it. Youre making yourself look foolish:

    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    I'm not the one making such blanket statements here.
    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    The boost saved you some time, but the carries did not.
    lol
    Last edited by Eugenik; 2021-10-10 at 08:24 PM.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  20. #2780
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    Just shows a lack of comprehension on your part. Those carries are still not guaranteed to be quicker than another run, such as with that example you ignored regarding my friends that do host carries in between guild runs. A carry should not be expected to go at a snail's place, but that doesn't justify your assumption that every other run is just slow trash.

    Oh right, you also ignored the context of the post you quoted. The boost saved you time by skipping content, whereas you still have to sit through the whole run which is never guaranteed to take less time than someone else's run.
    Last edited by saintminya; 2021-10-10 at 08:33 PM.

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