1. #2801
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    No, but it certainly helps being the sole person that gets to pick gear from a raid with lots of bosses. All the while doing nothing.
    And? It helps. That still doesn't mean you are able to fill all of the gear you need unless extremely lucky. The same thing can happen with a guild run when others don't need the gear.

    I can use a level boost but its up to me what I do with it. I can boost a character and never play him again. I can boost a character and end up using him as a bank character. I can boost a character only for running low lvl raids/dungeons. See - its up to me what I do with the boosted character.
    It doesn't matter if you used the level boost or not. You still paid for power in a direct transaction. You are honestly saying that having gold but not using it equivalent to buying gear. Why do people have to buy a raid/dungeon carry if merely owning gold provides a win? Exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    But buying gold with a direct transaction that can be used for power, isnt p2w lmao. Dear lord...
    Did you pay for the gear? Was the gold created by Blizzard for that money? Distinctions matter.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #2802
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Did you pay for the gear? Was the gold created by Blizzard for that money? Distinctions matter.
    Of course you did. With the gold you bought from blizzard. All gold is created by blizzard lol
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  3. #2803
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If they were paying $$ for the runs, then yes. Paying money for gold and then using gold for stuff is not pay to win. What if I buy a token, spend a bunch on battle pets, then use in-game earned gold to buy a boost. Did I pay to win the gear the from the boost?

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    You can do one raid a week regardless of how many tokens you buy. You'll be limited on loot you can get and bad luck will still mean you might not get it all. You can pay for unlimited M+ carries a week but you still might not have good luck and get the gear you need. You are limited to one Vault reward a week.
    You are all too focused on one instance of the definition of P2W. PW2 also includes systems that time gate players so they can sell you a skip. Like rushing a foundry in warframe or anyother F2P game. Blizz themself are not selling you a skip but they are endorsing it because it sells tokens thus they benefit from it. Blizz is playing in the both pools of P2P and F2P.

  4. #2804
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And? It helps. That still doesn't mean you are able to fill all of the gear you need unless extremely lucky. The same thing can happen with a guild run when others don't need the gear.



    It doesn't matter if you used the level boost or not. You still paid for power in a direct transaction. You are honestly saying that having gold but not using it equivalent to buying gear. Why do people have to buy a raid/dungeon carry if merely owning gold provides a win? Exactly.

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    Did you pay for the gear? Was the gold created by Blizzard for that money? Distinctions matter.
    Whats so complicated to grasp here?

    If boosting a character from 1-50 is pw2, then getting boosts/carries bought from gold(that you obtained via the token) is also p2w.

    As a fresh lvl 60 you have two choices:
    1. Play the game. Gear up slowly but steadily. You do m+ after m+ run, hoping you dont group with asshats and that your gear drops. You also do endless bgs & arenas cause it takes forever to get any relevant pvp gear in SL, all the while hoping you play with somewhat decent players(lol). You also farm korthia like a madman hoping to get relevant gear pieces that you can slooooowly upgrade until they are finally considered OK gear.

    Once you have done all of this - you can start entering raids. You can either rely on pugs(lol) to clear the whole raid or you find a decent guild that you get along with that also has a raid schedule that fits you(sometimes easier said then done). Here you compete with 10+ people for gear and you might not clear the raid most nights.

    OR

    You buy Blizzard wow token that lets you buy carries directly after reaching lvl 60 with scrub leveling gear, legally sanctioned by Blizzard. They want you to do this. They want you to buy these tokens and spend the gold on boosts & carries.

    As a boosted 1-50 character ingores, neglect and skip the whole leveling content(theres alot of it), a lvl 60 boosted character is the same.

    The fresh level 60 now saved him weeks of legwork to even be somewhat competetive. Instead of actually playing the game and obtain these things, he just gets the boost. Cause why shouldnt he? The game dictates you should have X/Y achiv to participate. The game reward people that get these achivs(mounts/titles). The game facilitates it all with the token.

  5. #2805
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Of course you did. With the gold you bought from blizzard. All gold is created by blizzard lol
    If that is the argument then the game is pay to win because of the subscription. People have to earn the gold through normal in-game methods in order for others to get gold with the token. It is not created just because someone buys a token from Blizzard. Distinctions matter even if you refused to see them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deneios View Post
    Blizz themself are not selling you a skip but they are endorsing it because it sells tokens thus they benefit from it. Blizz is playing in the both pools of P2P and F2P.
    They endorse it because it has people playing their game. Selling spots in your raid has never been an issue from Blizzard. These things happened prior to the token being introduced. Paying to win is entirely focused on the definition and how it applies to the game in question. Because not all games are equal. They game isn't even free to play, ignoring the starter account and its limitations, so they can't be in the "Free to play" pool. Lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    If boosting a character from 1-50 is pw2, then getting boosts/carries bought from gold(that you obtained via the token) is also p2w.
    The difference is one is directly bought. The other is not. If you pay someone gold to level you 1-50 as you follow them around (or to aoe farm or dungeon run) then that isn't pay to win. It is using a in-game currency to get a boost. Paying directly for power from Blizzard (or a currency just to enable shop transactions) is Pay to Win. Since gold is the universal currency and is not created by Blizzard with tokens then it is not pay to win.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #2806
    Dreadlord saintminya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Quote me where I said that, Ill wait... I said carries are faster than progression raiding as a counter point to what you said:
    I simply said it didn't save you time, because unlike the boost it isn't a content skip and you wouldn't know ahead of time which potential group would clear first. The carry isn't guaranteeing that you'll get your desired gear any quicker, just as it isn't guaranteed to go faster than if you decided to run with friends or with unpaid randos. Just because you are undergeared and inexperienced after that boost doesn't mean the same can be said about who you run your dungeons or raids with.

    I suppose there's no point having a discussion with someone who bases everything off their own assumptions, or makes up dialogue for other posters though.

  7. #2807
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If that is the argument then the game is pay to win because of the subscription. People have to earn the gold through normal in-game methods in order for others to get gold with the token. It is not created just because someone buys a token from Blizzard. Distinctions matter even if you refused to see them.

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    They endorse it because it has people playing their game. Selling spots in your raid has never been an issue from Blizzard. These things happened prior to the token being introduced. Paying to win is entirely focused on the definition and how it applies to the game in question. Because not all games are equal. They game isn't even free to play, ignoring the starter account and its limitations, so they can't be in the "Free to play" pool. Lol.

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    The difference is one is directly bought. The other is not. If you pay someone gold to level you 1-50 as you follow them around (or to aoe farm or dungeon run) then that isn't pay to win. It is using a in-game currency to get a boost. Paying directly for power from Blizzard (or a currency just to enable shop transactions) is Pay to Win. Since gold is the universal currency and is not created by Blizzard with tokens then it is not pay to win.
    No, the game is not p2w because of the sub. The sub is there to generate revenue for Blizzard so they can keep on making new content. The sub also opens up for you to take part in the world they have created. Beyond that, the sub does nothing. Thats like saying paying for a game at all is p2w. I bought New World a week ago, is that p2w?

    That Blizzard has box price, sub and store features is them just triple dipping.

    The token is there to buy these carries & boosts. Its not a item people buy to buy flasks, enchants or other various normal stuff. Its there for boosting and a select few insane prised mounts. A "normal" player that just plays the game dont suddenly buys tokens for these things, theres no need.

    You keep going on and on about Blizzard not selling boosts directly, but this token does just that. Nothing else. It serves no other purpose. It brings nothing good to the game. Its there so Blizzard can earn more from less. They didnt bother fixing the boosting, botting & gold trading of old. They just legalized it and called it the day.

    It has literally no other purpose in game right now than to incentivise people to buy boosts with gold. Atleast BfA had a brontomount you could waste tokens on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    I simply said it didn't save you time, because unlike the boost it isn't a content skip and you wouldn't know ahead of time which potential group would clear first. The carry isn't guaranteeing that you'll get your desired gear any quicker, just as it isn't guaranteed to go faster than if you decided to run with friends or with unpaid randos. Just because you are undergeared and inexperienced after that boost doesn't mean the same can be said about who you run your dungeons or raids with.

    I suppose there's no point having a discussion with someone who bases everything off their own assumptions, or makes up dialogue for other posters though.
    That requires said player to actually have friends/guild that are capable of clearing raids. That also can play when you can play. That also are willing to gear up and experience the content in normal fashion.

    I bet alot of wow players often enough plays this game solo and heavily rely on pugs. Especially when entering higher m+ keys and doing HC(and mythic) raids. Since the cool rewards is hidden behind certain content of decent difficulty, its easier and quicker to buy boosts.

    If you enter wow mid xpac its much, much easier and quicker to buy a couple of tokens and get carried every wednesday for few weeks than actually playing the game. To actual play the game, theres alot of X factors that comes into play. Boosting, theres nothing.

  8. #2808
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    You keep going on and on about Blizzard not selling boosts directly, but this token does just that. Nothing else. It serves no other purpose. It brings nothing good to the game. Its there so Blizzard can earn more from less. They didnt bother fixing the boosting, botting & gold trading of old. They just legalized it and called it the day.
    Nothing else? So the only thing you can use gold on is a raid or dungeon carry? Why did people buy gold before carries became "mainstream"? Boosting has never been a problem so there is nothing to fix. They take action against botting and gold trading. The gold farmers used to advertise with dead bodies in cities spelling out websites. You are re-writing things or selectively remembering.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #2809
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Nothing else? So the only thing you can use gold on is a raid or dungeon carry? Why did people buy gold before carries became "mainstream"? Boosting has never been a problem so there is nothing to fix. They take action against botting and gold trading. The gold farmers used to advertise with dead bodies in cities spelling out websites. You are re-writing things or selectively remembering.
    Yes, I do remember the game being filled in tradechat and LFG channel with boosting sales constantly 24/7. Like it is now, it has always been so rampant with boosts & carries.

    Yeah, keep on thinking that.


    And yes, what else is there to spend 100k+ gold on in wow? You rake in enough gold for all the stuff you need in the game, but buying boosts & carries? You are better off buying token.

  10. #2810
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If that is the argument then the game is pay to win because of the subscription. People have to earn the gold through normal in-game methods in order for others to get gold with the token. It is not created just because someone buys a token from Blizzard. Distinctions matter even if you refused to see them.
    Riiiight... paying for a subscription in a sub based game, is the same as buying gold, or a lvl boost from Blizzard lmao.

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    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    I simply said it didn't save you time
    And thats simply false. Buying carries saves you a ton of time. The fact that you cant see that, says to me, that youre no longer worth my time.
    Last edited by Eugenik; 2021-10-10 at 10:08 PM.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  11. #2811
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Riiiight... paying for a subscription in a sub based game, is the same as buying gold from Blizzard lmao.
    Sadly, i have seen other people try the same argument. P2W is paying to gain an advantage over other players. You cant gain an advantage over people who are not playing the game. I honestly think thats the sign of a person completely tapping out and giving up on any logical arguments.

  12. #2812
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Sadly, i have seen other people try the same argument. P2W is paying to gain an advantage over other players. You cant gain an advantage over people who are not playing the game. I honestly think thats the sign of a person completely tapping out and giving up on any logical arguments.
    Its utterly flabbergasting...
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  13. #2813
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Riiiight... paying for a subscription in a sub based game, is the same as buying gold, or a lvl boost from Blizzard lmao.
    You are the one that said all gold is created by Blizzard. You have to pay a subscription (and box price) to access that gold. If you don't like the logic of your own argument then don't make it.

    Buying carries only saves you time if you are after achievements. If you are after gear it can save you time or it might not. It all depends on the luck of the RNG drops.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #2814
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You are the one that said all gold is created by Blizzard.
    Who do you think creates gold in WoW?
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  15. #2815
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Who do you think creates gold in WoW?
    The game. Which means paying to access the game makes the game pay to win, right? The token is funded 100% by player earned gold. It does not create any gold.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #2816
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Buying carries only saves you time if you are after achievements. If you are after gear it can save you time or it might not. It all depends on the luck of the RNG drops.
    Jesus christ... if a player uses a lvl boost and pays for carries in raids, you dont think thats faster than a lvl boosted player progressing through content? I dont even know what to say lol. Do you play WoW?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The game. Which means paying to access the game makes the game pay to win, right? The token is funded 100% by player earned gold. It does not create any gold.
    And blizzard makes more money selling the token, than the subscription price the token goes towards. Whats your point?
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  17. #2817
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    No it doesnt. Once a raid has been fully released and the boosting guilds/Players have what they need, they start selling boosts to everyone all day everyday. Meaning, you can go in a raid with level gear and go out with almost fully epic geared. If you want, you can pay for that option too.

    The more bosses you kill in vault = better gear. So, shorter time.
    If it was pay-2-win shouldn't the people paying be fully geared before the boosters?

  18. #2818
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    If it was pay-2-win shouldn't the people paying be fully geared before the boosters?
    Its insane that you dont recognize how stupid of a statement that is lol
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  19. #2819
    Quote Originally Posted by Mokrath View Post
    It's really a big stretch to call tokens P2W and you can see that in the evolution of this thread as people start calling it indirect p2w or p2w "features" or whatever other term they come up with.
    The gold comes from other players. The gear comes from other players.
    The carries are performed by other players who can clear content so easily they can drag dead weight through it.
    Your cash does not create anything directly, nor does it directly make players stronger. It just lets you trade game time for gold with other players in a safe and non-ToS violation manner.
    This whole thread is over 100+ pages of people playing games with semantics (word games) to make it seem as if WoW is P2W or not.

    I will make it super simple.

    People want a game where they progress in skill and are able to take on progressively tougher challenges.

    The idea is that the player uses his/ her skill to progress.

    In WoW, you can buy a token, trade the token for gold and then use the gold to boost yourself to the best gear and all the achieve. There is no player skill at all involved in this, just their $$$. Their is no player skill progression in this method. Their skill has not changed at all, they just have shinies bought with $$$$.

    For Pay 2 Win, it really doesn't matter if other players had to carry you, etc. All that matters is that you are able to obtain the best gear in game for real life $$$$ and that you did not have to use any skill to do it. For example- if you bought a raid spot with $$$, but still had to come and preform well in the raid to get gear, I wouldn't consider it Pay 2 win, because you still had to use some skill.

    The only other part that matters is whether it is legal to do so in the game (If you are doing it via an exploit or bug then the game isn't Pay 2 win). Blizz has said 100x over that boosting with gold is cool. You just can't pay someone real $$$ directly. You have to buy the WoW token (so Blizz is the entity that collects the $$$ not the booster) then use the token to buy gold. So basically, blizz gets the $$$: blizz is fine with that; booster gets $$$: hey not so fast (blizz no likey)

    It diminishes the value of the game, the gear and the achieves. When I see someone with all the achieves and mounts I consider it 50/ 50 whether it is a boost or they really earned it. On some realms, the whole trade is just consumed by different guilds boosting. It basically ruins the whole fantasy of the game. There are a couple of realms I just gave up on because the only life on the server was guilds boosting.......

    I still can't believe the devs at WoW allowed the game to descend into such a depraved state. Don't they have any pride in their work? If I was a dev, I wouldn't want to be working at a P 2 Win game, those are basically just cash grab games- the lowest form of a game.

  20. #2820
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Its insane that you dont recognize how stupid of a statement that is lol
    I recognise it's stupid because WoW isn't a p2w game, if it was someone with a credit card would be able to get their character maxed out before people who are playing the game normally. Pay-2-win games suck because they create two tiers of players with the ones using cash being better equipped to meet the challenges of the game in ways non-paying players can't possibly meet. I've played games where you know the dude melting your face has given the developers £20 for the privilege and it is very different to WoW where you think maybe a person in cool armour used in-game currency to hire people to get them that armour, and possibly they got that currency by paying real life cash to another player.

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