1. #2821
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I recognise it's stupid because WoW isn't a p2w game, if it was someone with a credit card would be able to get their character maxed out before people who are playing the game normally.
    Its funny you say that, because you can absolutely max out a character, before people who are playing the game normally.

    If two players start the game at the same time, one lvl boosts, the other doesnt and the one who boosts, buys raid carries and the other doesnt, who do you think will have their character maxed out first?

    Thats why its a silly argument. A child could sort that out. Whats your excuse?
    Last edited by Eugenik; 2021-10-10 at 10:51 PM.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  2. #2822
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I recognise it's stupid because WoW isn't a p2w game, if it was someone with a credit card would be able to get their character maxed out before people who are playing the game normally. Pay-2-win games suck because they create two tiers of players with the ones using cash being better equipped to meet the challenges of the game in ways non-paying players can't possibly meet. I've played games where you know the dude melting your face has given the developers £20 for the privilege and it is very different to WoW where you think maybe a person in cool armour used in-game currency to hire people to get them that armour, and possibly they got that currency by paying real life cash to another player.
    If two players start Classic wow at the same time - one buys the boost to lvl 58, one doesnt. they then meet in the world and dual - do you think the level 58 would "melt the face" of the level 1, or no?

  3. #2823
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Its funny you say that, because you can do that.

    If two players start the game at the same time, one lvl boosts, the other doesnt and the one who boosts, buys raid carries and the other doesnt, who do you think will have their character maxed out first?

    Thats why its a silly argument. A child could sort that out. Whats your excuse?
    So two players start at a new patch. One of them is a bleeding edge raider, the other has a credit card. Who will clear the content and get geared first?

  4. #2824
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Its funny you say that, because you can do that.

    If two players start the game at the same time, one lvl boosts, the other doesnt and the one who boosts, buys raid carries and the other doesnt, who do you think will have their character maxed out first?

    Thats why its a silly argument. A child could sort that out. Whats your excuse?
    If you nolife to such an extent that you are one of the very first boosters yourself no one else can outcompete you with their credit card.

    I'd even go so far and say if you're boosting yourself or play high end your perception will probably differ a lot regarding this topic as it shouldn't influence you really, that's at least why i was pretty blind to it end of legion and during bfa.

    But jesus christ has boosting become a plague in this game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    So two players start at a new patch. One of them is a bleeding edge raider, the other has a credit card. Who will clear the content and get geared first?
    You are correct, now what about the 99% of players that are and never will be bleeding edge raiders? Oh right, they don't matter and fill up the gold saucer the longer this goes on.

  5. #2825
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    If two players start Classic wow at the same time - one buys the boost to lvl 58, one doesnt. they then meet in the world and dual - do you think the level 58 would "melt the face" of the level 1, or no?
    If the level 1 defers the duel until they have the same level and gear then it depends on the classes probably. In a pay-2-win game it would be like one person having TBC and the other stuck with Vanilla content. Even with maxed gear from Naxx the Vanilla player is going to struggle against the p2w player 10 levels higher with basic quest greens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLucky1 View Post
    You are correct, now what about the 99% of players that are and never will be bleeding edge raiders?
    They can play at their own pace and good luck to them.

  6. #2826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    So two players start at a new patch. One of them is a bleeding edge raider, the other has a credit card. Who will clear the content and get geared first?
    Who cares? The bleeding edge player isnt buying their gear, the one with the credit card is..

    Do you actually think for WoW to be p2w, the person buying with real money, needs to have an advantage over every other player? Bc thats not how it works..

    What about comparing the player with the credit card, to another normal player who isnt bleeding edge. Will the credit card buy an advantage over that player?
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  7. #2827
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    If the level 1 defers the duel until they have the same level and gear then it depends on the classes probably. In a pay-2-win game it would be like one person having TBC and the other stuck with Vanilla content. Even with maxed gear from Naxx the Vanilla player is going to struggle against the p2w player 10 levels higher with basic quest greens.
    Just answer the question - or are you suggesting that in a pvp game, when two players meet one simply says "hey mate, your gear is better than mine, please delay the arena match until i have the same gear as you". I mean seriously, what the hell kind of logic is that?

  8. #2828
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    They can play at their own pace and good luck to them.
    The point is, pouring your cc into tokens, most definitely gives you an advantage over a majority of players who dont spend real money..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    If the level 1 defers the duel until they have the same level and gear then it depends on the classes probably.
    wtf lmao.. you cant be serious..
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  9. #2829
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I recognise it's stupid because WoW isn't a p2w game, if it was someone with a credit card would be able to get their character maxed out before people who are playing the game normally. Pay-2-win games suck because they create two tiers of players with the ones using cash being better equipped to meet the challenges of the game in ways non-paying players can't possibly meet. I've played games where you know the dude melting your face has given the developers £20 for the privilege and it is very different to WoW where you think maybe a person in cool armour used in-game currency to hire people to get them that armour, and possibly they got that currency by paying real life cash to another player.
    So, if a player buys a token with $$$. Then uses the token gold to buy a boost. During that boost they get gear (through no skill of their own) then they use that gear to "melt your face" (as you say); then you are fine with that.

    If the player just uses $$$ in a shop to buy the gear directly (and cut out the middle men) then melts your face; that's now not cool.......

    I guess we have to agree to disagree then. I see it as- in both of those scenarios the player did not use any skill to get the gear, they did not overcome any challenges, they demonstrated no mastery, they don't actually "deserve" that gear and they never actually "earned" it.

    It really doesn't matter if you call it P 2 Win or something else. The words do not actually matter. There are two camps in this thread:

    1) One camp doesn't mind players being able to spend $$$ and get the best gear/ achieves (through whatever means, boosting, etc)

    2) The other camp feels you should not able to buy gear with $$$$ (even through some convoluted system like boosting) and that you should actually have to earn your gear.

    I am in camp 2. I think it hurts the integrity of the game and its systems (how can Blizz argue that a piece of gear has value and has to be grinded out over weeks when someone can come in and scoop it on a boost for $$$ as soon as they hit max level, what value does KSM or AOTC have when you can basically buy it). Not only that but it can ruin the server. Gold gets consolidated within a few guilds that become so big that there are only a few dominating the server. Outside of those guilds becomes a ghost town because other guilds struggle to maintain rosters etc when going up against the bigger guilds running multiple teams regularly with tons of resources (from all the boosting gold).

    Not only that but it makes the game look like trash when you go into any capital and you are just bombarded with constant boosting ads. What was conspicuously absent. Regular runs looking for a PUG just to run........... I wonder why...........

  10. #2830
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    It really doesn't matter if you call it P 2 Win or something else. The words do not actually matter. There are two camps in this thread:

    1) One camp doesn't mind players being able to spend $$$ and get the best gear/ achieves (through whatever means, boosting, etc)

    2) The other camp feels you should not able to buy gear with $$$$ (even through some convoluted system like boosting) and that you should actually have to earn your gear.
    Id argue theres a 3rd camp who doesnt care how you get your gear, as long as your not buying it with real money. As long as the gold is earned, I dont care how its spent.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  11. #2831
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Jesus christ... if a player uses a lvl boost and pays for carries in raids, you dont think thats faster than a lvl boosted player progressing through content? I dont even know what to say lol. Do you play WoW?
    A person can get into raids as soon as they hit 60. They can have friends carry them, they could have alt to gear up. With the changes in 9.1.5 renown and kothira gear will be super fast to get on alts.

    And blizzard makes more money selling the token, than the subscription price the token goes towards. Whats your point?
    What is your point? Oh no a company makes money. Of course Blizzard makes money off of it. Did you expect them to do it for free?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #2832
    Skimming through the last few pages it's generally funny how the discussion of this topic always hugely revolves around semantics instead of actual discussion of the subject matter itself.

    Doesn't that often happen with really convoluted and ugly things?

  13. #2833
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Who cares? The bleeding edge player isnt buying their gear, the one with the credit card is..

    Do you actually think for WoW to be p2w, the person buying with real money, needs to have an advantage over every other player? Bc thats not how it works..

    What about comparing the player with the credit card, to another normal player who isnt bleeding edge. Will the credit card buy an advantage over that player?
    Yes that's what pay-2-win is, you're paying to have an advantage over people who haven't paid. If there are people who haven't paid who you can't get an advantage over with your money then it isn't pay-2-win.

  14. #2834
    Scarab Lord Eugenik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    A person can get into raids as soon as they hit 60. They can have friends carry them, they could have alt to gear up. With the changes in 9.1.5 renown and kothira gear will be super fast to get on alts.
    Great, then theyre not buying it. So what?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Yes that's what pay-2-win is, you're paying to have an advantage over people who haven't paid.
    Great, so you agree wow is p2w. Thanks for your contributions.
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  15. #2835
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Great, then they not buying it. So what?
    The what is it counters your claim a player will always be behind a person that does not buy.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #2836
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Just answer the question - or are you suggesting that in a pvp game, when two players meet one simply says "hey mate, your gear is better than mine, please delay the arena match until i have the same gear as you". I mean seriously, what the hell kind of logic is that?
    I'm saying if I'd just logged in to Warcraft and a level 58 came to duel my level 1 I would absolutely refuse that duel.

  17. #2837
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    What is your point? Oh no a company makes money. Of course Blizzard makes money off of it. Did you expect them to do it for free?
    Theyre selling gold. Its not a 1 for 1, token for game time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The what is it counters your claim a player will always be behind a person that does not buy.
    I didnt say always lmao. Obviously thats not true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I'm saying if I'd just logged in to Warcraft and a level 58 came to duel my level 1 I would absolutely refuse that duel.
    Fuck you guys are annoying... so what if youre in the world leveling and youre alliance and the booster is horde, trolling low lvl alliance. What choice in the matter is there then?
    Let's look at the test results. You are a horrible person. It says right here, you're a horrible person. We weren't even testing that. Don't let the horrible person thing get you down though. Science justified your parents choice to abandon you.

  18. #2838
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    So, if a player buys a token with $$$. Then uses the token gold to buy a boost. During that boost they get gear (through no skill of their own) then they use that gear to "melt your face" (as you say); then you are fine with that.

    If the player just uses $$$ in a shop to buy the gear directly (and cut out the middle men) then melts your face; that's now not cool.......

    I guess we have to agree to disagree then. I see it as- in both of those scenarios the player did not use any skill to get the gear, they did not overcome any challenges, they demonstrated no mastery, they don't actually "deserve" that gear and they never actually "earned" it.
    There's a difference. If a player buys a boost, I can play the game normally and get to the same level. At some point there will be no advantage to the money they spent because potentially we both have the same max power.

    In a pay-2-win game their money will have bought them an advantage beyond what I could get without paying. There character would have a flat 10% damage and health boost or something.

  19. #2839
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Theyre selling gold. Its not a 1 for 1, token for game time.
    So it isn't pay to win. It is just a micro transaction. You even just said they are selling gold (which isn't a win) instead of gear (which would be a win).



    I didnt say always lmao. Obviously thats not true.
    It is implied. Your situation only gives an advantage if it always happens. Otherwise it is just the same thing happening with a different path. Anything you can get with the token can be done with out the token. Even buying the token doesn't guarantee that there is someone around to carry you to achievements and gear. The further along a content tier goes the easier it gets (also the cheaper).
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #2840
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I'm saying if I'd just logged in to Warcraft and a level 58 came to duel my level 1 I would absolutely refuse that duel.
    So you would dodge the dual like you are dodging the question. Ok, same scenario, but the level 58 is horde, on your realm, on a pvp realm, and he heads to a low lvl zone and starts ganking you. Why would you not just fight him? Is it possibly because...................they have a HUGE advantage?

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