1. #2921
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    P2w is when you can spend cash on an advantage other players can't match unless they also pay cash. For example imagine the boost gave you a top level character with gear more powerful than Mythic raids and a 20% damage buff. Then it would be pay-2-win as someone who isn't paying would never be able to get their character to the same level no matter how much they play.

    But you are sadly wrong. If you look at any obviously acknowledged p2w or even the mobile p2w stuff its always stuff that you can theoretically grind if you spend extra 1000 hours and 1000 days to get what you can buy with 100 bucks in 2 min. The vast majority of power and character advancement in most pay2win games are not theoretically locked from non-paying players.
    So yes WoW Token is as pay2win as anything can be.

  2. #2922
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    No. That is NOT strictly what p2w is. That's what WoW players claim is p2w to avoid saying WoW is p2w. Paying $60 and skipping a large swath of content is 100% p2w.
    That's what gamers decided p2w is when these sorts of microtransactions became an issue. It's why World of Tanks players were fine with the devs selling tanks that you could save up in-game currency to buy but hated the cash-only golden ammo that ignores armour, and RIFT players didn't care about XP boost potions on the store but took issue with extra item slots being opened up by cash.

    I get why you might not like people being able to buy these sorts of convenience services but why dumb down the conversation by stretching the term "pay-2-win" to cover all sorts of MTX and not just p2w situations?

  3. #2923
    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenik View Post
    Johnny come lately, you wrong, bud. Paying real money for advantages is p2w
    sounds more like p2a to me
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  4. #2924
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    But you are sadly wrong. If you look at any obviously acknowledged p2w or even the mobile p2w stuff its always stuff that you can theoretically grind if you spend extra 1000 hours and 1000 days to get what you can buy with 100 bucks in 2 min. The vast majority of power and character advancement in most pay2win games are not theoretically locked from non-paying players.
    So yes WoW Token is as pay2win as anything can be.
    And in a p2w game the "free" paths make it nigh impossible to get to the same level as a paying player. For example if it did take 3 years for a non-paying player to be able to clear a Mythic raid then WoW would be p2w as it would be impossible to clear them within the life cycle of the patch or even the expansion.

    With WoW we know that can't be the case as players have to be capable of clearing the content before they can sell the boosts.

  5. #2925
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    That's what gamers decided p2w is when these sorts of microtransactions became an issue. It's why World of Tanks players were fine with the devs selling tanks that you could save up in-game currency to buy but hated the cash-only golden ammo that ignores armour, and RIFT players didn't care about XP boost potions on the store but took issue with extra item slots being opened up by cash.

    I get why you might not like people being able to buy these sorts of convenience services but why dumb down the conversation by stretching the term "pay-2-win" to cover all sorts of MTX and not just p2w situations?
    Because it's literally p2w whether you like it or not. You are actively using cash to purchase character power. You're the one dumbing things down to avoid admitting WoW is p2w. The token and paid level boost is blatant p2w.

  6. #2926
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Leveling and grinding gold are not nearly as arduous or difficult as you seem to think, especially if you follow a guide or download auction add-ons.



    In actual pay-2-win games you buy enhancements to play that can not be gained any other way. In WoW terms think of it as getting loot with and extra 10 ilvls or just a 20% permanent health/damage buff.

    BTW if your biggest concern is watching Netflix while you play it is very easy to do so while leveling and grinding gold through normal gameplay.

    - - - Updated - - -



    P2w is when you can spend cash on an advantage other players can't match unless they also pay cash. For example imagine the boost gave you a top level character with gear more powerful than Mythic raids and a 20% damage buff. Then it would be pay-2-win as someone who isn't paying would never be able to get their character to the same level no matter how much they play.
    sigh, yet again the example of "p2w is only that when you cant do anything else". Thats not how it works anymore. It used to, but the gaming companies have understood they cant get away with that anymore. So they make the gameplay so shit, so convoluded, so long to complete, such a slog, that people cave in and rather just get boosted.

    While doing so, they have lucrative rewards behind content that entices buying boosts. Your average wow player dont spend all day farming gold. Your average wow player dont have time or the desire, or even care, to learn about auction house add-ons or how to maximize gold income. Besides, if everyone did it, then it wouldnt be worth doing for no one anyway.

    In MMORPGs I would think "winning" for most players would mean obtaining BIS gear, mounts, titles, achivments. The best gear, the coolest mounts(often enough), cool titles and achives are hidden behind certain content. You can either A) grind for months and maybe get this stuff or B) buy token GG success I won.

    Answer this - does buying/selling token open up to you propell yourself to obtain all of this in a short amount of time? Or doesnt it?

  7. #2927
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Because it's literally p2w whether you like it or not. You are actively using cash to purchase character power. You're the one dumbing things down to avoid admitting WoW is p2w. The token and paid level boost is blatant p2w.
    What's "admitting" got to do with it, and how is it dumbing down to want to use different phrases for different services?

    WoW let's you buy services that remove grind and save time like level boosts and gold. It's pay-4-convenience or pay-2-skip.

    Some games let you directly buy power. Some games let you buy power that can not be matched without paying real money and those are pay-2-win and were mostly rejected years ago.

    If you stretch "pay-2-win" to cover all MTX that give even the slightest advantage you're muddying the waters and making the phrase useless. It used to be that calling a game p2w was a warning to stay away because you'd essentially be a lower-tier player if you didn't splash out cash for the enhancements. Under your definition a game could be labelled p2w for something as innocuous as an XP boost.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    sigh, yet again the example of "p2w is only that when you cant do anything else". Thats not how it works anymore. It used to, but the gaming companies have understood they cant get away with that anymore.
    This is exactly the point I've been making. People are trying to stretch the definition of p2w to cover other things they don't like because "pay-2-win" evokes certain feelings and they want that emotional connection even though it's mechanically different. At least you admit you want to change the meaning to cover more things than actual pay-2-win mechanics.

    So they make the gameplay so shit, so convoluded, so long to complete, such a slog, that people cave in and rather just get boosted.
    Obviously not the case in WoW as plenty of players are capable of clearing content without the need to spend gold, otherwise the boosters wouldn't exist to offer the services.

    In MMORPGs I would think "winning" for most players would mean obtaining BIS gear, mounts, titles, achivments. The best gear, the coolest mounts(often enough), cool titles and achives are hidden behind certain content. You can either A) grind for months and maybe get this stuff or B) buy token GG success I won.

    Answer this - does buying/selling token open up to you propell yourself to obtain all of this in a short amount of time? Or doesnt it?
    As has been established several times, other players have to complete the content and gear up before they can start offering the boosts so the answer would be no. The people who get the mounts, titles, gears etc. in the shortest time are the people who play the game without hiring other players for gold.

  8. #2928
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What's "admitting" got to do with it, and how is it dumbing down to want to use different phrases for different services?

    WoW let's you buy services that remove grind and save time like level boosts and gold. It's pay-4-convenience or pay-2-skip.

    Some games let you directly buy power. Some games let you buy power that can not be matched without paying real money and those are pay-2-win and were mostly rejected years ago.

    If you stretch "pay-2-win" to cover all MTX that give even the slightest advantage you're muddying the waters and making the phrase useless. It used to be that calling a game p2w was a warning to stay away because you'd essentially be a lower-tier player if you didn't splash out cash for the enhancements. Under your definition a game could be labelled p2w for something as innocuous as an XP boost.
    And guess what? That service makes it pay-2-win. All you're doing is deflecting and trying to call it something else to avoid saying you're wrong. Spending $60 and getting a nearly max level character is straight up buying character power. To say otherwise is utterly asinine. Pay-2-win is spending money to gain advantage over other players. Can a player not spending $60 just outright skip 50 levels of content? No. Which is why it's p2w. And purchasing an xp boost IS p2w because once again, you are purchasing power. People like you constantly want to desperately change what p2w means just to avoid saying WoW is p2w.

  9. #2929
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What's "admitting" got to do with it, and how is it dumbing down to want to use different phrases for different services?

    WoW let's you buy services that remove grind and save time like level boosts and gold. It's pay-4-convenience or pay-2-skip.

    Some games let you directly buy power. Some games let you buy power that can not be matched without paying real money and those are pay-2-win and were mostly rejected years ago.

    If you stretch "pay-2-win" to cover all MTX that give even the slightest advantage you're muddying the waters and making the phrase useless. It used to be that calling a game p2w was a warning to stay away because you'd essentially be a lower-tier player if you didn't splash out cash for the enhancements. Under your definition a game could be labelled p2w for something as innocuous as an XP boost.
    Yes, Blizzard lets you buy services that lets you ignore and skip everything that makes the game a MMORPG. Leveling? nah, boost. Doing korthia? Bgs? Arena? M+? Raids? Nah, token. GG I have mount, achiv, title. See you next path. Repeat.

  10. #2930
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    And guess what? That service makes it pay-2-win. All you're doing is deflecting and trying to call it something else to avoid saying you're wrong. Spending $60 and getting a nearly max level character is straight up buying character power. To say otherwise is utterly asinine. Pay-2-win is spending money to gain advantage over other players. Can a player not spending $60 just outright skip 50 levels of content? No. Which is why it's p2w. And purchasing an xp boost IS p2w because once again, you are purchasing power. People like you constantly want to desperately change what p2w means just to avoid saying WoW is p2w.
    Guess what? It doesn't. People like you want to change what p2w means just so you can say WoW is p2w which is pointless. It's perfectly okay for you to not like games that allow you to skip parts of the content or a grind for real money. I don't see the point in using a phrase that already had a distinct definition just because it feels good for you to say it, especially as the broad definition of p2w you want to use stops it being such a bad thing for a game to include.

  11. #2931
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What's "admitting" got to do with it, and how is it dumbing down to want to use different phrases for different services?

    WoW let's you buy services that remove grind and save time like level boosts and gold. It's pay-4-convenience or pay-2-skip.

    Some games let you directly buy power. Some games let you buy power that can not be matched without paying real money and those are pay-2-win and were mostly rejected years ago.

    If you stretch "pay-2-win" to cover all MTX that give even the slightest advantage you're muddying the waters and making the phrase useless. It used to be that calling a game p2w was a warning to stay away because you'd essentially be a lower-tier player if you didn't splash out cash for the enhancements. Under your definition a game could be labelled p2w for something as innocuous as an XP boost.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is exactly the point I've been making. People are trying to stretch the definition of p2w to cover other things they don't like because "pay-2-win" evokes certain feelings and they want that emotional connection even though it's mechanically different. At least you admit you want to change the meaning to cover more things than actual pay-2-win mechanics.



    Obviously not the case in WoW as plenty of players are capable of clearing content without the need to spend gold, otherwise the boosters wouldn't exist to offer the services.



    As has been established several times, other players have to complete the content and gear up before they can start offering the boosts so the answer would be no. The people who get the mounts, titles, gears etc. in the shortest time are the people who play the game without hiring other players for gold.
    yes, and the people that buy these boosts get the same stuff players that actually play the game obtained. One segment of the playerbase actually took part in the game and played it, while others didnt do anything else than buy all of this.

    To buy convinience and/or timesavers is p2w. Straight up. Nothing else to it, especially in a MMORPG. Or well, it used to. Now its considered "normal" to buy your way to gear, titles, mounts & achivs.

    Just because you gotta spend real money on gold(token) first in order to buy boosts, doesnt mean it aint p2w. Its just a extra hurdle to jump through.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Guess what? It doesn't. People like you want to change what p2w means just so you can say WoW is p2w which is pointless. It's perfectly okay for you to not like games that allow you to skip parts of the content or a grind for real money. I don't see the point in using a phrase that already had a distinct definition just because it feels good for you to say it, especially as the broad definition of p2w you want to use stops it being such a bad thing for a game to include.
    The defenition of p2w varies depending on what game you are looking at with this scheme. In a MMORPG were time, commitment, skill & teamplay are supposed to reward you with the best stuff - it leaves a bad taste when you alone can just go and buy it straigth up.

    In a MMORPG this is considered p2w and it sucks that not 100% of the playerbase realise this.

  12. #2932
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Yes, Blizzard lets you buy services that lets you ignore and skip everything that makes the game a MMORPG. Leveling? nah, boost. Doing korthia? Bgs? Arena? M+? Raids? Nah, token. GG I have mount, achiv, title. See you next path. Repeat.
    Yup, you can call it pay-2-not-play if you like, the same as the boosting services and character sellers back in Vanilla and TBC.

  13. #2933
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Yup, you can call it pay-2-not-play if you like, the same as the boosting services and character sellers back in Vanilla and TBC.
    oh come on now. Sure it happend back then, but it was not as rampant as it is now. Its literally the whole game soon enough. Trade is nothing but seller spam, lfg channel filled with ads. Its a shitshow and its only getting worse.

    Soon the game will have nothing but booster guilds and tryhards doing mythic raids & carries with whales supporting them via boosting.

    We also have a game now were its better to just pay for a boost than to actually play it. Instead of taking part in the world & game, people just give in a boost. Or(hopefully) they do the best thing - quit & unsub.

  14. #2934
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Guess what? It doesn't. People like you want to change what p2w means just so you can say WoW is p2w which is pointless. It's perfectly okay for you to not like games that allow you to skip parts of the content or a grind for real money. I don't see the point in using a phrase that already had a distinct definition just because it feels good for you to say it, especially as the broad definition of p2w you want to use stops it being such a bad thing for a game to include.
    I'm not fucking changing shit. Most everyone in this thread agree that paying $60 for a level boost is p2w. You just refuse to see it that way because then you would have to say something negative about WoW. So you can deny that the level boost is p2w all you want but you will be wrong every single time.

  15. #2935
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    Yes. wow is pay to win.

    you buy tokens with real money, sell them on auction house for gold, buy boosts, so someone can hand you the loot on a silver plate, you might say you cant get mythic boosts, well im quite sure you can buy those early on once the top guilds cleared it they need a ton of gold and dont mind boosting someone for 2m gold or something like that.

    there are no loot boxes in the game some say, if you go to the black market auction house there is a loot box there you can buy, so off you go and buy a token and sell for gold and try to win the loot box, they mostly contain crap so yeah they fit perfectly into the gambling part, if you are after old transmorg or mounts you will need to spend alot of money.

    this is the reason I quit playing and everyone I know quit playing wow.

    wow failed, there was a pandemic, everyone at home playing games, during that time wow lost 60% of it's playerbase.. it's never going to recover from that, if they cant get players to play when everyone is forced to be at home with endless spare time it's never going to recover when the world is back to normal and people is too busy and only have few hours of spare time each day to play games they will most likely pick the ones they loved during the pandemic not the one they hated the most.

    world of tokens.

  16. #2936
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    The defenition of p2w varies depending on what game you are looking at with this scheme. In a MMORPG were time, commitment, skill & teamplay are supposed to reward you with the best stuff - it leaves a bad taste when you alone can just go and buy it straigth up.

    In a MMORPG this is considered p2w and it sucks that not 100% of the playerbase realise this.
    MMOs have existed that had real p2w features, not just the ones you want to stretch the definition to cover. I've already mentioned RIFT selling additional item slots so a player paying extra could wear additional gear and have higher stats. That was p2w as it made a higher tier of character power that could not be attained without paying extra.

    It's really easy to tell the difference. With a p2w game you can look at two characters and one of them will have extra gear or buffs that can not be attained without paying. With WoW I will not be able to tell if I'm looking at a character who geared up by playing through raids normally or if they paid for a carry using gold, and on top of that I won't know if they bought the gold using a token or earned it through playing the game.

    And it's fine if the game leaves a bad taste by making these things possible, just don't try to stretch "pay-2-win" to cover everything you dislike when it already has a specific use.

  17. #2937
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It's really easy to tell the difference. With a p2w game you can look at two characters and one of them will have extra gear or buffs that can not be attained without paying. With WoW I will not be able to tell if I'm looking at a character who geared up by playing through raids normally or if they paid for a carry using gold, and on top of that I won't know if they bought the gold using a token or earned it through playing the game.
    Indeed, and thats the core of it. This is not a healthy approach at all in a MMORPG. As you say, people can easily buy these things without you knowing. Atleast with store mounts we know people bought it. Everything else literally is up in the air, you have no clue. As such, it devalues the whole game. As such, nothing holds value in the game either.

  18. #2938
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I'm not fucking changing shit. Most everyone in this thread agree that paying $60 for a level boost is p2w. You just refuse to see it that way because then you would have to say something negative about WoW. So you can deny that the level boost is p2w all you want but you will be wrong every single time.
    I've said plenty of negative things against WoW, I just don't see the point in changing the definition of a phrase to do so. You know it's possible to say negative things about WoW's microtransactions without using the phrase pay-2-win? Just say "I don't like players paying to skip things because it is bad" and you don't need to stretch a term that already has a definition.

  19. #2939
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I've said plenty of negative things against WoW, I just don't see the point in changing the definition of a phrase to do so. You know it's possible to say negative things about WoW's microtransactions without using the phrase pay-2-win? Just say "I don't like players paying to skip things because it is bad" and you don't need to stretch a term that already has a definition.
    As crusadernero has explained as well, the term isn't being stretched. Like all words and phrases, the definition has evolved. The original "definition" would mean p2w games just don't exist anymore. I'll say again, whether you like it or not, paid level boosts and WoW tokens are p2w. You can deflect all you want but that's the facts.

  20. #2940
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    oh come on now. Sure it happend back then, but it was not as rampant as it is now. Its literally the whole game soon enough. Trade is nothing but seller spam, lfg channel filled with ads. Its a shitshow and its only getting worse.

    Soon the game will have nothing but booster guilds and tryhards doing mythic raids & carries with whales supporting them via boosting.
    Trade and LFG used to be nothing but gold and boost sellers, forums were filled with either adverts or early phishing links trying to hack accounts for their gold, bots and goldfarmers infested every easily grindable spot (mostly Silithus and Burning Steppes) and there was even a weird botting system that used suicidal lvl 1 characters to spell out gold-selling websites with corpses near major cities. If the amount of promotion it has is the benchmark of how widespread something is then Vanilla was nothing but boosted characters buying gold or raid-geared level 60s bought on EBay.

    We also have a game now were its better to just pay for a boost than to actually play it. Instead of taking part in the world & game, people just give in a boost. Or(hopefully) they do the best thing - quit & unsub.
    Why do you think it's better to get a boost than actually play? Like I said gold-selling was rampant back in Vanilla and I never saw the appeal of just paying to have the grind completed rather than "achieving" it myself. What do you find appealing about it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    As crusadernero has explained as well, the term isn't being stretched. Like all words and phrases, the definition has evolved. The original "definition" would mean p2w games just don't exist anymore. I'll say again, whether you like it or not, paid level boosts and WoW tokens are p2w. You can deflect all you want but that's the facts.
    Pay-2-win games still exist but they are much less widespread. You wanting to stretch the definition (sorry, "evolve" the definition) because it feels good to use it for things you don't like just seems pointless, if you dilute the phrase you make it less useful as p2w games will no longer be the shitshows with a divide between haves and have-nots that made pay-2-win mechanics so egregious in the first place.

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