1. #2921
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What's "admitting" got to do with it, and how is it dumbing down to want to use different phrases for different services?

    WoW let's you buy services that remove grind and save time like level boosts and gold. It's pay-4-convenience or pay-2-skip.

    Some games let you directly buy power. Some games let you buy power that can not be matched without paying real money and those are pay-2-win and were mostly rejected years ago.

    If you stretch "pay-2-win" to cover all MTX that give even the slightest advantage you're muddying the waters and making the phrase useless. It used to be that calling a game p2w was a warning to stay away because you'd essentially be a lower-tier player if you didn't splash out cash for the enhancements. Under your definition a game could be labelled p2w for something as innocuous as an XP boost.
    And guess what? That service makes it pay-2-win. All you're doing is deflecting and trying to call it something else to avoid saying you're wrong. Spending $60 and getting a nearly max level character is straight up buying character power. To say otherwise is utterly asinine. Pay-2-win is spending money to gain advantage over other players. Can a player not spending $60 just outright skip 50 levels of content? No. Which is why it's p2w. And purchasing an xp boost IS p2w because once again, you are purchasing power. People like you constantly want to desperately change what p2w means just to avoid saying WoW is p2w.

  2. #2922
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What's "admitting" got to do with it, and how is it dumbing down to want to use different phrases for different services?

    WoW let's you buy services that remove grind and save time like level boosts and gold. It's pay-4-convenience or pay-2-skip.

    Some games let you directly buy power. Some games let you buy power that can not be matched without paying real money and those are pay-2-win and were mostly rejected years ago.

    If you stretch "pay-2-win" to cover all MTX that give even the slightest advantage you're muddying the waters and making the phrase useless. It used to be that calling a game p2w was a warning to stay away because you'd essentially be a lower-tier player if you didn't splash out cash for the enhancements. Under your definition a game could be labelled p2w for something as innocuous as an XP boost.
    Yes, Blizzard lets you buy services that lets you ignore and skip everything that makes the game a MMORPG. Leveling? nah, boost. Doing korthia? Bgs? Arena? M+? Raids? Nah, token. GG I have mount, achiv, title. See you next path. Repeat.

  3. #2923
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    And guess what? That service makes it pay-2-win. All you're doing is deflecting and trying to call it something else to avoid saying you're wrong. Spending $60 and getting a nearly max level character is straight up buying character power. To say otherwise is utterly asinine. Pay-2-win is spending money to gain advantage over other players. Can a player not spending $60 just outright skip 50 levels of content? No. Which is why it's p2w. And purchasing an xp boost IS p2w because once again, you are purchasing power. People like you constantly want to desperately change what p2w means just to avoid saying WoW is p2w.
    Guess what? It doesn't. People like you want to change what p2w means just so you can say WoW is p2w which is pointless. It's perfectly okay for you to not like games that allow you to skip parts of the content or a grind for real money. I don't see the point in using a phrase that already had a distinct definition just because it feels good for you to say it, especially as the broad definition of p2w you want to use stops it being such a bad thing for a game to include.

  4. #2924
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    What's "admitting" got to do with it, and how is it dumbing down to want to use different phrases for different services?

    WoW let's you buy services that remove grind and save time like level boosts and gold. It's pay-4-convenience or pay-2-skip.

    Some games let you directly buy power. Some games let you buy power that can not be matched without paying real money and those are pay-2-win and were mostly rejected years ago.

    If you stretch "pay-2-win" to cover all MTX that give even the slightest advantage you're muddying the waters and making the phrase useless. It used to be that calling a game p2w was a warning to stay away because you'd essentially be a lower-tier player if you didn't splash out cash for the enhancements. Under your definition a game could be labelled p2w for something as innocuous as an XP boost.

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    This is exactly the point I've been making. People are trying to stretch the definition of p2w to cover other things they don't like because "pay-2-win" evokes certain feelings and they want that emotional connection even though it's mechanically different. At least you admit you want to change the meaning to cover more things than actual pay-2-win mechanics.



    Obviously not the case in WoW as plenty of players are capable of clearing content without the need to spend gold, otherwise the boosters wouldn't exist to offer the services.



    As has been established several times, other players have to complete the content and gear up before they can start offering the boosts so the answer would be no. The people who get the mounts, titles, gears etc. in the shortest time are the people who play the game without hiring other players for gold.
    yes, and the people that buy these boosts get the same stuff players that actually play the game obtained. One segment of the playerbase actually took part in the game and played it, while others didnt do anything else than buy all of this.

    To buy convinience and/or timesavers is p2w. Straight up. Nothing else to it, especially in a MMORPG. Or well, it used to. Now its considered "normal" to buy your way to gear, titles, mounts & achivs.

    Just because you gotta spend real money on gold(token) first in order to buy boosts, doesnt mean it aint p2w. Its just a extra hurdle to jump through.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Guess what? It doesn't. People like you want to change what p2w means just so you can say WoW is p2w which is pointless. It's perfectly okay for you to not like games that allow you to skip parts of the content or a grind for real money. I don't see the point in using a phrase that already had a distinct definition just because it feels good for you to say it, especially as the broad definition of p2w you want to use stops it being such a bad thing for a game to include.
    The defenition of p2w varies depending on what game you are looking at with this scheme. In a MMORPG were time, commitment, skill & teamplay are supposed to reward you with the best stuff - it leaves a bad taste when you alone can just go and buy it straigth up.

    In a MMORPG this is considered p2w and it sucks that not 100% of the playerbase realise this.

  5. #2925
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Yes, Blizzard lets you buy services that lets you ignore and skip everything that makes the game a MMORPG. Leveling? nah, boost. Doing korthia? Bgs? Arena? M+? Raids? Nah, token. GG I have mount, achiv, title. See you next path. Repeat.
    Yup, you can call it pay-2-not-play if you like, the same as the boosting services and character sellers back in Vanilla and TBC.

  6. #2926
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Yup, you can call it pay-2-not-play if you like, the same as the boosting services and character sellers back in Vanilla and TBC.
    oh come on now. Sure it happend back then, but it was not as rampant as it is now. Its literally the whole game soon enough. Trade is nothing but seller spam, lfg channel filled with ads. Its a shitshow and its only getting worse.

    Soon the game will have nothing but booster guilds and tryhards doing mythic raids & carries with whales supporting them via boosting.

    We also have a game now were its better to just pay for a boost than to actually play it. Instead of taking part in the world & game, people just give in a boost. Or(hopefully) they do the best thing - quit & unsub.

  7. #2927
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Guess what? It doesn't. People like you want to change what p2w means just so you can say WoW is p2w which is pointless. It's perfectly okay for you to not like games that allow you to skip parts of the content or a grind for real money. I don't see the point in using a phrase that already had a distinct definition just because it feels good for you to say it, especially as the broad definition of p2w you want to use stops it being such a bad thing for a game to include.
    I'm not fucking changing shit. Most everyone in this thread agree that paying $60 for a level boost is p2w. You just refuse to see it that way because then you would have to say something negative about WoW. So you can deny that the level boost is p2w all you want but you will be wrong every single time.

  8. #2928
    High Overlord
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    Yes. wow is pay to win.

    you buy tokens with real money, sell them on auction house for gold, buy boosts, so someone can hand you the loot on a silver plate, you might say you cant get mythic boosts, well im quite sure you can buy those early on once the top guilds cleared it they need a ton of gold and dont mind boosting someone for 2m gold or something like that.

    there are no loot boxes in the game some say, if you go to the black market auction house there is a loot box there you can buy, so off you go and buy a token and sell for gold and try to win the loot box, they mostly contain crap so yeah they fit perfectly into the gambling part, if you are after old transmorg or mounts you will need to spend alot of money.

    this is the reason I quit playing and everyone I know quit playing wow.

    wow failed, there was a pandemic, everyone at home playing games, during that time wow lost 60% of it's playerbase.. it's never going to recover from that, if they cant get players to play when everyone is forced to be at home with endless spare time it's never going to recover when the world is back to normal and people is too busy and only have few hours of spare time each day to play games they will most likely pick the ones they loved during the pandemic not the one they hated the most.

    world of tokens.

  9. #2929
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    The defenition of p2w varies depending on what game you are looking at with this scheme. In a MMORPG were time, commitment, skill & teamplay are supposed to reward you with the best stuff - it leaves a bad taste when you alone can just go and buy it straigth up.

    In a MMORPG this is considered p2w and it sucks that not 100% of the playerbase realise this.
    MMOs have existed that had real p2w features, not just the ones you want to stretch the definition to cover. I've already mentioned RIFT selling additional item slots so a player paying extra could wear additional gear and have higher stats. That was p2w as it made a higher tier of character power that could not be attained without paying extra.

    It's really easy to tell the difference. With a p2w game you can look at two characters and one of them will have extra gear or buffs that can not be attained without paying. With WoW I will not be able to tell if I'm looking at a character who geared up by playing through raids normally or if they paid for a carry using gold, and on top of that I won't know if they bought the gold using a token or earned it through playing the game.

    And it's fine if the game leaves a bad taste by making these things possible, just don't try to stretch "pay-2-win" to cover everything you dislike when it already has a specific use.

  10. #2930
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    It's really easy to tell the difference. With a p2w game you can look at two characters and one of them will have extra gear or buffs that can not be attained without paying. With WoW I will not be able to tell if I'm looking at a character who geared up by playing through raids normally or if they paid for a carry using gold, and on top of that I won't know if they bought the gold using a token or earned it through playing the game.
    Indeed, and thats the core of it. This is not a healthy approach at all in a MMORPG. As you say, people can easily buy these things without you knowing. Atleast with store mounts we know people bought it. Everything else literally is up in the air, you have no clue. As such, it devalues the whole game. As such, nothing holds value in the game either.

  11. #2931
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I'm not fucking changing shit. Most everyone in this thread agree that paying $60 for a level boost is p2w. You just refuse to see it that way because then you would have to say something negative about WoW. So you can deny that the level boost is p2w all you want but you will be wrong every single time.
    I've said plenty of negative things against WoW, I just don't see the point in changing the definition of a phrase to do so. You know it's possible to say negative things about WoW's microtransactions without using the phrase pay-2-win? Just say "I don't like players paying to skip things because it is bad" and you don't need to stretch a term that already has a definition.

  12. #2932
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    I've said plenty of negative things against WoW, I just don't see the point in changing the definition of a phrase to do so. You know it's possible to say negative things about WoW's microtransactions without using the phrase pay-2-win? Just say "I don't like players paying to skip things because it is bad" and you don't need to stretch a term that already has a definition.
    As crusadernero has explained as well, the term isn't being stretched. Like all words and phrases, the definition has evolved. The original "definition" would mean p2w games just don't exist anymore. I'll say again, whether you like it or not, paid level boosts and WoW tokens are p2w. You can deflect all you want but that's the facts.

  13. #2933
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    oh come on now. Sure it happend back then, but it was not as rampant as it is now. Its literally the whole game soon enough. Trade is nothing but seller spam, lfg channel filled with ads. Its a shitshow and its only getting worse.

    Soon the game will have nothing but booster guilds and tryhards doing mythic raids & carries with whales supporting them via boosting.
    Trade and LFG used to be nothing but gold and boost sellers, forums were filled with either adverts or early phishing links trying to hack accounts for their gold, bots and goldfarmers infested every easily grindable spot (mostly Silithus and Burning Steppes) and there was even a weird botting system that used suicidal lvl 1 characters to spell out gold-selling websites with corpses near major cities. If the amount of promotion it has is the benchmark of how widespread something is then Vanilla was nothing but boosted characters buying gold or raid-geared level 60s bought on EBay.

    We also have a game now were its better to just pay for a boost than to actually play it. Instead of taking part in the world & game, people just give in a boost. Or(hopefully) they do the best thing - quit & unsub.
    Why do you think it's better to get a boost than actually play? Like I said gold-selling was rampant back in Vanilla and I never saw the appeal of just paying to have the grind completed rather than "achieving" it myself. What do you find appealing about it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    As crusadernero has explained as well, the term isn't being stretched. Like all words and phrases, the definition has evolved. The original "definition" would mean p2w games just don't exist anymore. I'll say again, whether you like it or not, paid level boosts and WoW tokens are p2w. You can deflect all you want but that's the facts.
    Pay-2-win games still exist but they are much less widespread. You wanting to stretch the definition (sorry, "evolve" the definition) because it feels good to use it for things you don't like just seems pointless, if you dilute the phrase you make it less useful as p2w games will no longer be the shitshows with a divide between haves and have-nots that made pay-2-win mechanics so egregious in the first place.

  14. #2934
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Trade and LFG used to be nothing but gold and boost sellers, forums were filled with either adverts or early phishing links trying to hack accounts for their gold, bots and goldfarmers infested every easily grindable spot (mostly Silithus and Burning Steppes) and there was even a weird botting system that used suicidal lvl 1 characters to spell out gold-selling websites with corpses near major cities. If the amount of promotion it has is the benchmark of how widespread something is then Vanilla was nothing but boosted characters buying gold or raid-geared level 60s bought on EBay.



    Why do you think it's better to get a boost than actually play? Like I said gold-selling was rampant back in Vanilla and I never saw the appeal of just paying to have the grind completed rather than "achieving" it myself. What do you find appealing about it?

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    Pay-2-win games still exist but they are much less widespread. You wanting to stretch the definition (sorry, "evolve" the definition) because it feels good to use it for things you don't like just seems pointless, if you dilute the phrase you make it less useful as p2w games will no longer be the shitshows with a divide between haves and have-nots that made pay-2-win mechanics so egregious in the first place.
    This is the last time I'm going to repeat myself so if you're going to respond with more of the same drivel, don't reply to me again. Paid level boosts and WoW tokens are blatant p2w. You are purchasing power for a character that another player isn't getting because they are NOT paying that extra money. It's a hefty advantage and therefore makes it p2w. I'm not diluting the phrase. You're just doing mental gymnastics because you refuse to admit you're wrong about WoW being p2w.

  15. #2935
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post
    Trade and LFG used to be nothing but gold and boost sellers, forums were filled with either adverts or early phishing links trying to hack accounts for their gold, bots and goldfarmers infested every easily grindable spot (mostly Silithus and Burning Steppes) and there was even a weird botting system that used suicidal lvl 1 characters to spell out gold-selling websites with corpses near major cities. If the amount of promotion it has is the benchmark of how widespread something is then Vanilla was nothing but boosted characters buying gold or raid-geared level 60s bought on EBay.



    Why do you think it's better to get a boost than actually play? Like I said gold-selling was rampant back in Vanilla and I never saw the appeal of just paying to have the grind completed rather than "achieving" it myself. What do you find appealing about it?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Pay-2-win games still exist but they are much less widespread. You wanting to stretch the definition (sorry, "evolve" the definition) because it feels good to use it for things you don't like just seems pointless, if you dilute the phrase you make it less useful as p2w games will no longer be the shitshows with a divide between haves and have-nots that made pay-2-win mechanics so egregious in the first place.
    Thats simply not true. It wasnt everyday business to get boosted on the scale that it is now. Back then you risked getting banned for buying gold, so less people actually went on and did it. Blizzard har rules that said you shouldnt do this and that, so less people took the chance.

    Now that its legal and the game is set up in such a way it is, it entices and enourage players to buy gold in order to buy boosts. Since Blizzard gets a cut on this, its a perfect solution to a problem they refuse or are incapable of fixing.

    Whats even worse is that they have made the game in such a fashion that the token serves all other purposes except of what gold used to be for - proffession mats, flasks, enchants and all those things. By just playing the game normally you get the gold that covers basic costs. The token is there to give the extra gold for boosts and carries. Nothing else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    This is the last time I'm going to repeat myself so if you're going to respond with more of the same drivel, don't reply to me again. Paid level boosts and WoW tokens are blatant p2w. You are purchasing power for a character that another player isn't getting because they are NOT paying that extra money. It's a hefty advantage and therefore makes it p2w. I'm not diluting the phrase. You're just doing mental gymnastics because you refuse to admit you're wrong about WoW being p2w.
    I have no idea whatsoever why people seem to defend this practise with token, or even argue against it in any shape or form. It is p2w, just with a extra hurdle to make it less-so obvious. One can start to think that those people that defend this are either A) the ones doing the boosting(and getting lots of gold) or B) the ones that heavily rely on selling tokens for gold so they can get boosted.

  16. #2936
    Brewmaster Skylarking's Avatar
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    Is it bad to just call it all pay 2 win? I don't see the reason to argue in semantics over what is ultimately in the end all the same when you get down to it. In wow the definition gets all over the place since the game was not designed with irl currency. You pay for convenience in Korean mmos but everyone just lumps it under pay 2 win anyway.

    Since the actual design of pay 2 win is so outdated and widely underused nowadays I don't see why not.

  17. #2937
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    This is the last time I'm going to repeat myself so if you're going to respond with more of the same drivel, don't reply to me again. Paid level boosts and WoW tokens are blatant p2w. You are purchasing power for a character that another player isn't getting because they are NOT paying that extra money. It's a hefty advantage and therefore makes it p2w. I'm not diluting the phrase. You're just doing mental gymnastics because you refuse to admit you're wrong about WoW being p2w.
    Taking a phrase that means one thing and stretching it to cover other things dilutes the phrase. With the proper definition of p2w you know you'll be playing a game where players who pay will have an advantage over others that can not be overcome no matter how much you play. With your definition it could mean paying players have such an advantage, or it could mean they're saving an hour or so on a grind, or anything in between.

    But we live in a world where people have made "literally" to literally be its own antonym, which is literally the worst thing that has ever happened, so just use whatever phrases feel good to you regardless of meaning and have a nice day o/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skylarking View Post
    Is it bad to just call it all pay 2 win? I don't see the reason to argue in semantics over what is ultimately in the end all the same when you get down to it. In wow the definition gets all over the place since the game was not designed with irl currency. You pay for convenience in Korean mmos but everyone just lumps it under pay 2 win anyway.
    If you remember when p2w mechanics were first introduced (which doesn't seem that long ago, or maybe I'm just old) there was a rejection of anything that gave an unmatchable advantage to paying players while people were generally more accepting of things that just offered convenience or allowed you to skip certain grinds. The example I've given is World of Tanks, people didn't mind that you could buy a tank for money instead of grinding for it but there was a lot less acceptance of the gold ammo that was better at penetrating armour.

    So yeah it's "bad" to call it all pay-2-win if you want to discern between the different sorts of MTX, and I don't really see why you wouldn't.

  18. #2938
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I'm not fucking changing shit. Most everyone in this thread agree that paying $60 for a level boost is p2w. You just refuse to see it that way because then you would have to say something negative about WoW. So you can deny that the level boost is p2w all you want but you will be wrong every single time.
    I'm sorry man, but how is a character boost at all p2w? The game is all about what happens at max level. skipping through the level progress in no way "wins" you the game or gives you an upper-hand. You still need to level from 50-60, you still need to gear up, you still need to do a bunch of content.
    And leveling from 1-50 only takes a few days anyways.
    Your argument is totally invalid. Maybe "pay to skip useless content" is more accurate.

    Shall i reference private serves that sell gear that is more overpowered than any gear available in game?
    I 3d print stuff

  19. #2939
    Quote Originally Posted by Runicblood View Post
    I'm sorry man, but how is a character boost at all p2w? The game is all about what happens at max level. skipping through the level progress in no way "wins" you the game or gives you an upper-hand. You still need to level from 50-60, you still need to gear up, you still need to do a bunch of content.
    And leveling from 1-50 only takes a few days anyways.
    Your argument is totally invalid. Maybe "pay to skip useless content" is more accurate.
    Yes. Blizzard creates a less good world to play and take part in, therefore buy a boost. "Hey our content is bad, pay boost to skip it. We promise its much better at max level!"

    "Hey now you are 60 but look at the hours, days, weeks you gotta spend to get gear, titles, mounts and achivs. Why not just buy these tokens and skip the work and just collect reward?".

  20. #2940
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Yes. Blizzard creates a less good world to play and take part in, therefore buy a boost. "Hey our content is bad, pay boost to skip it. We promise its much better at max level!"

    "Hey now you are 60 but look at the hours, days, weeks you gotta spend to get gear, titles, mounts and achivs. Why not just buy these tokens and skip the work and just collect reward?".
    And when has WoW EVER been about what takes place before max level? Maybe in vanilla, sure. But from TBC onwards, the only real content anyone cared about is the current expansion content.
    I can't grasp this obsession people have about old content needing to be relevant.

    And the skip is only to 50, you still need to level through the CURRENT expansion.(edit - if you are referencing tbc, yes, the skip is to 60, but you still need to level to 70. same difference.)

    Another edit - I haven't played many other mmo's, but i'm pretty sure the same can be said about any of them. No one cares about leveling, people want to do endgame content.
    I 3d print stuff

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