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  1. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Yes.

    If you can buy power, especially gear, pay to have the content cleared for you to see the end and kill the last boss, or even minor conveniences like leveling which also comes with gear - you will be at an advantage compared to people who don't.

    Which is all P2W.
    i mean, fine, if you see it that way, okay... but then wow is p2w since its very begining, bcs you could buy gold, gear, leveling or gearing via dungeons in vanila...

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    I think alot of people are doing that. Maybe you too... and me.

    Maybe we should properly define what Pay 2 Win would entail.
    Mine has been consistent. To win the game you have to complete the hardest content and have the best possible gear. Buying a boost does not allow you to even access the hardest content since it doesn't become available until after they are moving towards the next expansion putting it 10 levels behind the end game. Even taking into account the current mythic raid when it become available, you cannot take a boosted toon immediately into it unless you are carried. It's the carry that is the P2W. Not the boost.

  3. #263
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    I think alot of people are doing that. Maybe you too... and me.

    Maybe we should properly define what Pay 2 Win would entail.
    Well, even that is difficult for us to agree on.

    Pay2Win for me is a direct purchase of power from a developer in the form of equipment (current tier armor/weapon), purchase a boost of stats, purchase a boost to reach max level, pay to clear current (ranked PvP/Raiding/M+) content with services from the developer.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    Yes.

    If you can buy power, especially gear, pay to have the content cleared for you to see the end and kill the last boss, or even minor conveniences like leveling which also comes with gear - you will be at an advantage compared to people who don't.

    Which is all P2W.
    Pardon me, I guess you mean, from the company?

    Else, your phrase means it is Pay2Win because people play the game.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  4. #264
    Bloodsail Admiral Snowflakesz's Avatar
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    Still no. /10char
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  5. #265
    Technically, yes. Tokens purchase carries, which can basically get you everything.

    I don't think it really matters all that much though. As much as I dislike the boosting meta of modern WoW, it's not like WoW is a competitive PvP game. Does it really matter? Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Pay2Win for me is a direct purchase of power from a developer in the form of equipment (current tier armor/weapon), purchase a boost of stats, purchase a boost to reach max level, pay to clear current (ranked PvP/Raiding/M+) content with services from the developer..
    If the developer sells gold, and that gold is used to buy these exact things, what difference is there functionally? You are indirectly purchasing these things from the developer.

  6. #266
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Fair enough, you can google what ppl think about it - won't change a thing.

    I mean...there are definitions on what an MMO (RPG) is and ppl will still debate if WoW counts as one of them. Even when the company and wikipedia etc call it an MMO (RPG)

    In the end I often think it is all about making a thread to annoy as many ppl as possible.

    I mean..just look at the first sentence of OP: "Sorry if this is discussed anywhere else, could not find any Thread related to this."

    Sure OP couldn't ^^ - there is only just this one https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ay-to-win-quot bloody up there with the "recent forum posts" ^^

    That said: 264 replies in: Some say yes, some say no..all stick to their guns and definitions.

    And what does it really matter? If ppl think it is P2W and it disgusts them...draw your consequences from it. It is not like anyone who had a set opinion was ever convinced by somebody with a different opinion anyhow.
    Wise words, mate.
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  7. #267
    People were paying for boosts way before tokens so I don't get how the game became p2w with tokens...

  8. #268
    Dreadlord froschhure's Avatar
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    this game is sub based in other words: No it is not pay to win - it is pay to play!
    it offers tons of options to alter or quicken for money, which does not affect the game balance, but the game expierence

    when corruptions hit wow in bfa, that phase was p2w (imo) because you could farm those as boe and resell them for and tremendous amount of gold (beside being the most fun thing ever happen in wow) it kinda was p2w

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by LorDC View Post
    I see a lot of people in this thread with arguments along the lines of "you can buy boosts - therefore WoW is pay2win". But that's ridiculous, because by that definition every game in existence is pay2win. Like, you can pay some guy to play Tetris and put the record on the leaderboard under your name. Bam, Tetris is pay2win!
    Boosts are the least of the concerns here. But keep strawmanning, you are doing an excellent job.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    People were paying for boosts way before tokens so I don't get how the game became p2w with tokens...
    It was illegal back then, and could get you banned. It all magically changed once it was endorsed by Blizz.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

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  10. #270
    It became pay to win as soon as they added the token.

  11. #271
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spalernTJ View Post
    The moment you can purchase your way to any type of power advantage, it's Pay 2 Win, because you are able to use your money to get closer to victory.
    exactly, thank you
    ppl talk about mobile games where u can get shit only by real money, while those games don't exist anymore literally
    money speed things up in mobile games, and guess what? same in wow, money speed up lvling by boost, speed up gearing by tokens and buy BoE from AH or boosts, and unlike mobile games, it is also with a subscription

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It was illegal back then, and could get you banned. It all magically changed once it was endorsed by Blizz.
    again exactly
    honestly i think ppl answered perfectly, i don't have anything new to add
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    Maybe I'm nitpicking here but WoW token and boost are more like pay to advance. Skip playtime but you don't really "win" the game. If you had a token in store which could be used to let's say insta kill 1 raid boss per raid THAT would be pay to WIN. Just an example.

    But it is really about what is winning in WoW anyways?
    I agree entirely. It's paying for character power at most, but winning? Ehh... Winning is when you overcome something meaningful. Winning for me would be hitting a certain rating playing with friends in PvP, or finally downing a boss with a guild. Hell, I felt like I won when I finally got Eye of Sulfuras after 160 Ragnaros kills. If I'd just bought those things for money, that'd not be winning in my opinion.

  13. #273
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    And Black Knights are already chiming in with "yes, it's totally pay to win even though GENUINE pay to win games explicitly make payment systems that are an absolute advantage over everyone that doesn't pay"

    Anyone saying WoW is P2W does not understand the definition of P2W
    actually i doubt u do
    Let's talk about a stupid mobile game like a farm simulator, free to play u have to wait hours until corps can be harvested, but if u pay real life money u skip those hours and get it immediately
    wow is exactly same, pay u get instant boost, pay u get instant gear from AH, pay u get boost in raids, or do them the slow way of actually playing and waiting
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    actually i doubt u do
    Let's talk about a stupid mobile game like a farm simulator, free to play u have to wait hours until corps can be harvested, but if u pay real life money u skip those hours and get it immediately
    wow is exactly same, pay u get instant boost, pay u get instant gear from AH, pay u get boost in raids, or do them the slow way of actually playing and waiting
    But where's the winning? You have slightly higher numbers, & that's it. You don't have the friendships that come from playing with other people, & you don't have any sense of accomplishment for beating difficult content/achieving a difficult rank with your mates. Gear is just a byproduct of winning - a tool used to help you along the way.

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    But where's the winning? You have slightly higher numbers, & that's it. You don't have the friendships that come from playing with other people, & you don't have any sense of accomplishment for beating difficult content/achieving a difficult rank with your mates. Gear is just a byproduct of winning - a tool used to help you along the way.
    Its getting glad or clearing CE.

    its been 15 years everyone knows what people mean by winning at wow.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Its getting glad or clearing CE.

    its been 15 years everyone knows what people mean by winning at wow.
    I think it's a lot wider than that. If someone starts & wants to get all the pet battle achieves & manage to do it & they find a sense of accomplishment in that, then that's winning as well (even if most can be bought/researched, there's still PvP wins). If someone puts in the effort & manages to host an awesome RP event, that's winning. If someone leads a good guild & helps people form friendships, that's winning.

    If someone spends £100 to have a smidge more power until the next patch...? I don't see how anyone can look at their iLvl go up a point or two because of a few BoEs & get any sort of sense of accomplishment.

  17. #277
    Unfortunately WoW is not 100% pay-to-win.
    I'm sure that today we would have dozens of XMOGS of the same level as the mounts in the store and Legion artefact weapons. Xmogs that would NOT need to look like the current xpac theme. Imagine how good it is to be able to dress our main-char with something NEW these past few years and at the same time not need to remember Zuldazar, Kul tiras or any Covenant. Yes, I wish I could wear it on my char today. Oh, and yes... sorry for my selfishness. I have no problem paying the sub and buying cosmetics from the store at the same time.

  18. #278
    Stood in the Fire Agent Smith's Avatar
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    Okay lets get one thing straight:

    Why are you trying to change the term "pay 2 win" to "Pay 2 skip", "pay 2 catch up", "pay 2 marginally be decent"

    Call it what you want, you're paying 2 win*

    Taken from Cyber Definitions

    https://www.cyberdefinitions.com/definitions/P2W.html



    The Urban https://www.urbandictionary.com/defi...erm=pay-to-win



    Le Reddit Armie (dont ask)


    Look at all the different definitions...

    Whether or not YOU PERSONALLY hold any value in whats being purchased or not is an opinion and we are here to discuss facts...

    And the fact of the matter is, ladies and gentlemen on the jury, is that, Blizzard installed an ATM inside WoW and is profiting off its sales. Every player in the world has gold on tap. All of the examples and scenarios above FACTUALLY start with ONE thing: DINERO. Money. Skrill. It begins with an in game transaction between user and host and that single transactions sets off the chain of events that ensue. I mean, players aren't even trying to quest anymore because Blizzard also sells, BOOSTS lol and then you just buy gold to get boosted through dungeons. Then pay gold to get gear once you hit max level. Then turn War Mode on and go to work or arena. All within 3 weeks.

    Mediocrity, catch up, skip, etc, etc, call it what you want: It will never negate the fact that real world money is the driving force behind WoW's best catch up mechanic: Tokens.

    If Blizzard truly gave a shit about their game and wanted to actually profit, they would double the prices on boosts, remove gold tokens and let the players GRIND like everyone else. That would create NATURAL time sinks. Not artificial shit ones like "anima"
    Last edited by Agent Smith; 2021-06-03 at 12:05 AM.

  19. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    Okay lets get one thing straight:

    Why are you trying to change the term "pay 2 win" to "Pay 2 skip", "pay 2 catch up", "pay 2 marginally be decent"

    Call it what you want, you're paying 2 win*

    Taken from Cyber Definitions

    https://www.cyberdefinitions.com/definitions/P2W.html

    Person A buys Dark Souls.
    Pays £20 for a DLC that allows them to never take damage & one shot all enemies.
    Clears the game in 4 hours.

    Is that pay-to-win? By definition, sure, but I'd call it pay-to-miss-the-entire-point-of-the-game If the only thing that matters to someone is watching their DPS creep up a percent or two while they buy raid BoEs then good on them if they consider that winning, but personally, I consider that nonsense. There's many ways to win in a game (and especially in an MMO), but buying a few BoEs isn't one of them.

  20. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Is that pay-to-win? By definition, sure, but I'd call it pay-to-miss-the-entire-point-of-the-game If the only thing that matters to someone is watching their DPS creep up a percent or two while they buy raid BoEs then good on them if they consider that winning, but personally, I consider that nonsense. There's many ways to win in a game (and especially in an MMO), but buying a few BoEs isn't one of them.
    Judging from your own description of what P2W is, that makes no sense. If purchasing gear to get ahead of others isn't winning in a MMO, what is (to you)?

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