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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Judging from your own description of what P2W is, that makes no sense. If purchasing gear to get ahead of others isn't winning in a MMO, what is (to you)?
    Overcoming challenges naturally, meeting friends, setting goals & accomplishing them. Buying a few BoEs can undoubtedly allow for a slight early spike in power & I'd never deny that, but buying end-game goals outright just takes the point out of the game entirely.

    Say your goal is Cutting Edge... Where's the sense of accomplishment if you were just told to die on the floor in P1 while some guys you'll never speak to again knock it over for you? Is having that Feat of Strength winning? I'd argue the person trying their hardest & just about managing Ahead of the Curve through their own efforts has a hell of a lot more to do with winning than the guy who pulls out his bank card & sits there dead while someone just carries him to an "achievement."

  2. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Person A buys Dark Souls.
    Pays £20 for a DLC that allows them to never take damage & one shot all enemies.
    Clears the game in 4 hours.

    Is that pay-to-win? By definition, sure, but I'd call it pay-to-miss-the-entire-point-of-the-game If the only thing that matters to someone is watching their DPS creep up a percent or two while they buy raid BoEs then good on them if they consider that winning, but personally, I consider that nonsense. There's many ways to win in a game (and especially in an MMO), but buying a few BoEs isn't one of them.
    See I think I have been able to narrow the issue and argument down.

    You guys are saying the "value" (for lack of better vocab) of what they are purchasing holds nothing in your eyes.

    What we are saying is, said "valuables" should have been earned and rewarded through merit, not the ability to have gold on tap and
    slide on through with money for what everyone else MUST work for.

    Please dont misunderstand me, I dont like it either, but I do use it because it is Blizzards most effective catch up mechanic.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    Overcoming challenges naturally, meeting friends, setting goals & accomplishing them. Buying a few BoEs can undoubtedly allow for a slight early spike in power & I'd never deny that, but buying end-game goals outright just takes the point out of the game entirely.

    Say your goal is Cutting Edge... Where's the sense of accomplishment if you were just told to die on the floor in P1 while some guys you'll never speak to again knock it over for you? Is having that Feat of Strength winning? I'd argue the person trying their hardest & just about managing Ahead of the Curve through their own efforts has a hell of a lot more to do with winning than the guy who pulls out his bank card & sits there dead while someone just carries him to an "achievement."
    Sounds like, ultimately, winning is achieving the bolded part from your quote. The rest is feel-good conversation. I find that setting up the "Winning" condition in MMORPGs to "Make Friends" to be extremely disingenuous when discussing these topics.
    Last edited by Darkeon; 2021-06-03 at 12:30 AM.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    See I think I have been able to narrow the issue and argument down.

    You guys are saying the "value" (for lack of better vocab) of what they are purchasing holds nothing in your eyes.

    What we are saying is, said "valuables" should have been earned and rewarded through merit, not the ability to have gold on tap and
    slide on through with money for what everyone else MUST work for.

    Please dont misunderstand me, I dont like it either, but I do use it because it is Blizzards most effective catch up mechanic.
    There's always going to be buyers & sellers though, & that's an issue that's far beyond Blizzard's control - an issue of human nature. The WoW token is a way for Blizzard to capitalize on that & make a quick buck for themselves sure, but it's also a way to keep players from going on dodgy third-party websites & potentially losing a lot of money.

    Gold will always trump everything else in an MMO if you're talking simply about the acquisition of "things", but getting those trinkets, ratings & achievements don't mean anything if you don't do them yourself.

    Personally, I'm long past caring about who has what. Unless it's PvP & they're items that are seriously out of reach unless you have $$$ on tap then I'm not too concerned if Jimmy has a few BoEs for his +12s.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Sounds like, ultimately, winning is achieving the bolded part from your quote. The rest is feel-good conversation. I find that setting up the "Winning" condition in MMORPGs to "Make Friends" to be extremely disingenuous when discussing these topics.
    I was just using the friendship thing as an example, & there's plenty of them. As mentioned in an earlier post, if someone puts a hell of a lot of effort into a cool & unique RP event that turns out to be majorly successful, I'd call that a big win.

    There's no winning if there's no ability to lose. Whipping out a bank card & getting some seemingly impossible achievement/mount etc would be no different to spending £60 on a brilliant new game only to use Cheat Engine & godmode your way through it in 10 minutes. Maybe the person playing the game feels like a winner, but I'd just look at them in pity - & the same goes for WoW. If winning on WoW means spending thousands of dollars to buy a CE achievement/glad mount each patch to someone then I've absolutely no idea what to say to that sorta person

  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    If winning on WoW means spending thousands of dollars to buy a CE achievement/glad mount each patch to someone then I've absolutely no idea what to say to that sorta person
    You don't have to say anything but acknowledge that they set up a goal for themselves and achieved it. By paying. They paid to win.

    That's your definition of winning in MMOs, right? From your answer from before.

  6. #286
    Stood in the Fire Agent Smith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    There's always going to be buyers & sellers though, & that's an issue that's far beyond Blizzard's control - an issue of human nature. The WoW token is a way for Blizzard to capitalize on that & make a quick buck for themselves sure, but it's also a way to keep players from going on dodgy third-party websites & potentially losing a lot of money.

    Gold will always trump everything else in an MMO if you're talking simply about the acquisition of "things", but getting those trinkets, ratings & achievements don't mean anything if you don't do them yourself.
    Oh really? How would you ever know? I could simply say I did them myself and you wouldn't be the wiser. Again, I am not talking about personal value. Im talking about actual value. These accounts are valuable, there's a market for full accounts too, im sure. But thats not the point.

    My 3.5 million gold is about to buy me a 2100 rating, 10 achievements, 2 mounts , titles and a tabard.

    Ill be split screening WoW and Twitch and just chilling.

    Does this not sound like I am paying to have the upper hand on another player who has to literally grind his ass off for the same? My wallet is just bigger than his, thats literally the only difference.

    And buyers and sellers in MMO's are of course a normal thing, the difference here is that when Blizzard made a conscious choice to install a gold ATM in game, they opened the floodgates for this type of incentive. It ABSOLUTELY IS the responsibility of Blizzard because they, again, made the conscious choice to ALLOW GOLD TO BE PURCHASED WITH REAL WORLD MONEY, LEGALLY!

    I can assure you with absolute certainty that boosting was never this prevalent prior to token sales. Because you either had to RMT, which is illegal or you had to buy hacked Chinese gold... Which is also not allowed.

    Triple the price of boosts, remove gold token, win.
    Last edited by Agent Smith; 2021-06-03 at 12:44 AM.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by spalernTJ View Post
    The moment you can purchase your way to any type of power advantage, it's Pay 2 Win, because you are able to use your money to get closer to victory.
    Hold up.

    "Closer to victory"? If you're closer to victory, how can you be victorious? That's like saying you just ate a great sandwich because you took the bread out of the bag. You're closer to eating the sandwich, but you haven't done so yet.

    Honestly, if some of you would just go back and read what you write before you hit the button to submit, this would be a much better place.
    Still calling them out, one infraction at a time.

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    You don't have to say anything but acknowledge that they set up a goal for themselves and achieved it. By paying. They paid to win.

    That's your definition of winning in MMOs, right? From your answer from before.
    I said in that very sentence "overcoming challenges naturally." You can't tell me that someone who buys a CE achievement gets the same kick out of it as someone who plays the game to have fun & naturally gets to that point. Person A might have the same achievement, but person B has the journey & all the memories that goes along with it, & for me, person B is the only one winning in that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    Oh really? How would you ever know? I could simply say I did them myself and you wouldn't be the wiser. Again, I am not talking about personal value. Im talking about actual value. These accounts are valuable, there's a market for full accounts too, im sure. But thats not the point.

    My 3.5 million gold is about to buy me a 2100 rating, 10 achievements, 2 mounts , titles and a tabard.

    Ill be split screening WoW and Twitch and just chilling.

    Does this not sound like I am paying to have the upper hand on another player who has to literally grind his ass off for the same? My wallet is just bigger than his, thats literally the only difference.
    I personally don't care what you or anyone else has so long as it doesn't negatively affect me* Perhaps that's the secret. I've actively boosted people for Cutting Edge & final-boss mounts in the past, & you could argue I'm making something more common & in turn devaluing my own achievements in the process - But why care about that? I don't look back at a kill I got with a guild & think "oh but now some guy can go kill that boss in 10s on a transmog run" - I think to myself just how much fun we had at the time.

    If you ask me, you're simply paying to skip the best part of an MMO - The part where you play with people & overcome challenges naturally because you enjoy the vibes & the good times. If you think that's winning, then fair enough, if you were on EU I'd probably happily try hook you up with a PvE boost

    Paying-to-play a game & then skipping to the ending without any regard for the journey isn't winning - it's just pointless.

    *I can see how it'd negatively affect people in ranked PvP, but a trash player with gear is still a trash player. Arena boosting was happening long before the WoW token & is a certainty to happen in any game with a PvP scene. Apart from locked gear/everyone having the same stats in PvP, I don't think that's an issue that can be solved.
    Last edited by Toybox; 2021-06-03 at 12:56 AM.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    I said in that very sentence "overcoming challenges naturally." You can't tell me that someone who buys a CE achievement gets the same kick out of it as someone who plays the game to have fun & naturally gets to that point. Person A might have the same achievement, but person B has the journey & all the memories that goes along with it, & for me, person B is the only one winning in that situation.
    That's as disingenuous as me saying that, in order for someone who is actively trying to score Cutting Edge in a MMO, one has to do at least 5 bunny jumps before downing the last boss. ONLY THEN is it considered a victory.

    We are done here. And it's ok to disagree~ Take care, dude.

  10. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    I said in that very sentence "overcoming challenges naturally." You can't tell me that someone who buys a CE achievement gets the same kick out of it as someone who plays the game to have fun & naturally gets to that point. Person A might have the same achievement, but person B has the journey & all the memories that goes along with it, & for me, person B is the only one winning in that situation.



    I personally don't care what you or anyone else has so long as it doesn't negatively affect me Perhaps that's the secret. I've actively boosted people for Cutting Edge & final-boss mounts in the past, & you could argue I'm making something more common & in turn devaluing my own achievements in the process - But why care about that? I don't look back at a kill I got with a guild & think "oh but now some guy can go kill that boss in 10s on a transmog run" - I think to myself just how much fun we had at the time.

    If you ask me, you're simply paying to skip the best part of an MMO - The part where you play with people & overcome challenges naturally because you enjoy the vibes & the good times. If you think that's winning, then fair enough, if you were on EU I'd probably happily try hook you up with a PvE boost

    Paying-to-play a game & then skipping to the ending without any regard for the journey isn't winning - it's just pointless.
    I miss my friends very much. Our time came and went. Im an old man now (38) and the guild has become something else. In a positive way. Think Ship of Theseus.

    Anyways I actually am on both EU and NA LOL

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...nether/sanstos

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...hrall/benedict

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    That's as disingenuous as me saying that, in order for someone who is actively trying to score Cutting Edge in a MMO, one has to do at least 5 bunny jumps before downing the last boss. ONLY THEN is it considered a victory.

    We are done here. And it's ok to disagree~ Take care, dude.
    I think that's a bit extreme, but heyo, it is indeed alright to disagree I'll look back at that CE Danny kill & remember just how many issues we had along the way but just how good it felt to finally drop it with some guildies. Someone who bought it will likely never look back at it at all.

    At the end of the day, if the person who bought it is happy then fair play to them It's not how I'd ever want to play a game personally, but if it gives them a sense of accomplishment then screw it, good for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    I miss my friends very much. Our time came and went. Im an old man now (38) and the guild has become something else. In a positive way. Think Ship of Theseus.

    Anyways I actually am on both EU and NA LOL

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...nether/sanstos

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ch...hrall/benedict
    Ahh you've already got KSM - that's about my boosting limit nowadays Appreciate the getting older part! Our guild sadly called it after Sire, but quite a few of us are trying something new for 9.1 as we're not quite ready to give it up yet. Might be my last hurrah, honestly

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    I think it's a lot wider than that. If someone starts & wants to get all the pet battle achieves & manage to do it & they find a sense of accomplishment in that, then that's winning as well (even if most can be bought/researched, there's still PvP wins). If someone puts in the effort & manages to host an awesome RP event, that's winning. If someone leads a good guild & helps people form friendships, that's winning.

    If someone spends £100 to have a smidge more power until the next patch...? I don't see how anyone can look at their iLvl go up a point or two because of a few BoEs & get any sort of sense of accomplishment.
    I dont believe anyone would join to play that way to be blunt. If people want a pet battle game they are playing pokemon.

  13. #293
    No rational person could think that buying a boost and/or a few bits of gear counts as a win. You can't win if you don't run the race.

    You could argue it is loss, but that one is a matter of opinion.

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  14. #294
    It is, it would just require enormous sums of cash to repeatedly "win". Anyway, WoW is an MMO at the end of it's lifetime. Doesn't matter to me if it's pay to win now, it wasn't when it mattered to me.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    Depends. To win what? Top spots in Mythic raiding guilds, M+ high key runs, top arena/rbg rankings? No. If winning means good gear? What does gear matter if the player s*cks?

    So, NO, its not pay to win. Token just helps nerds with $$$ to skip the grinding process. But they still can't compete with good players. How can someone win if the better player is selling you boosts? That means the seller already won...
    The other thread going has pretty much the same argument. I agree with this. P2W would imply that if you spend money you win a competition or beat another player you were competing against solely because you spent money.

    With the TBC boost I would rate questions to help decide:

    1. Does the boost offer any advantage in clearing current content?
    Answer - No, you only save time in the leveling process. Unless you have a level 60+ character that is well equipped and has plenty of gold you are actually at a disadvantage because you have no professions, no reputations ground out and the gear you start with sucks really bad. You need to be a competent player with a guild that can help you gear and progress quickly or you actually go backwards.

    2. Does skipping content mean you "win" over someone else?
    Answer - No, not at all, everyone has the opportunity to boost if they decide to, which means its not exclusive. If you have completed the content on any character during the history of this game you haven't "skipped" any of the content. Winning would imply that there is a competition going on which their isn't.

    3. Does boosting allow you to win any sort of competition or advance you past someone who is unable to advance in the same manner?
    Answer - No, not at all. No explanation is needed. The only thing you get from a boost is time, in leveling but it requires you to revisit previous zones to level professions and reputations. Any player can boost, its not exclusive. Having boosted also doesn't impact other players outside of their delicate emotional attachments with spending money.

    Honestly the only thing I would consider P2W is tokens and BOE purchases but that's not a solid argument either.
    Last edited by InflaterMouse; 2021-06-03 at 02:19 AM.

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    Does this not sound like I am paying to have the upper hand on another player who has to literally grind his ass off for the same? My wallet is just bigger than his, thats literally the only difference.
    Nope. You are paying for gold and gold gives you access to things in game. You are paying to by pass the gold grind and not paying to win. Gold buying has existed in WoW since the begining even if it was only made legitamate since 2015. Paying gold before the token was not pay to win. Buying gold after the token is not pay to win. You still require the services of other players in order to win.

    If those players did not offer the services then no amount of buying Tokens, or gold, would allow you to win. Boosting isn't a byproduct of the token. It is a by product of massive stock piles of gold from Garrisons, Order Halls, and other means. The more accessible dungeons and raids have become the more they became easier to be services for those with massive stock piles.

    Also the token isn't anything close to an ATM for gold. The token is transfer service. You send gold to a player in exchange for Blizzard Balance (or game time). No gold is generated or transferred.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-06-03 at 02:35 AM.
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  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Nope. You are paying for gold and gold gives you access to things in game. You are paying to by pass the gold grind and not paying to win. Gold buying has existed in WoW since the begining even if it was only made legitamate since 2015. Paying gold before the token was not pay to win. Buying gold after the token is not pay to win. You still require the services of other players in order to win.

    If those players did not offer the services then no amount of buying Tokens, or gold, would allow you to win. Boosting isn't a byproduct of the token. It is a by product of massive stock piles of gold from Garrisons, Order Halls, and other means. The more accessible dungeons and raids have become the more they became easier to be services for those with massive stock piles.

    Also the token isn't anything close to an ATM for gold. The token is transfer service. You send gold to a player in exchange for Blizzard Balance (or game time). No gold is generated or transferred.
    To further this post, if you were able to P2W, when you purchased gold you wouldn't require boosting by players who are better than you or further progressed in the game. Because buying the gold doesn't gear you or make you better at what they are doing they win on pure skill and progression alone.

  18. #298
    BoE's with gold

    I think there is an argument about those to be Pay to Win

    Level Boost...no

    Buying boosts with gold from other players...no
    This is no different from asking an illegal site to boost you...
    Every game is pay to win if you think this is
    You can literally ask someone else to boost you in any game...this is no different

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by m4xc4v413r4 View Post
    Win what? Show me a single top PVP or PVE player that got there because he paid for it. You either know how to play or you don't you can't buy being better than you are. Paying for achivements and gear isn't winning/victory.
    Yes it is, you're buying the trophy. You're straight up purchasing the victory trophy. Did you earn it? No, not at all, but you have still technically won the game.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by InflaterMouse View Post
    The other thread going has pretty much the same argument. I agree with this. P2W would imply that if you spend money you win a competition or beat another player you were competing against solely because you spent money.

    With the TBC boost I would rate questions to help decide:

    1. Does the boost offer any advantage in clearing current content?
    Answer - No, you only save time in the leveling process. Unless you have a level 60+ character that is well equipped and has plenty of gold you are actually at a disadvantage because you have no professions, no reputations ground out and the gear you start with sucks really bad. You need to be a competent player with a guild that can help you gear and progress quickly or you actually go backwards.

    2. Does skipping content mean you "win" over someone else?
    Answer - No, not at all, everyone has the opportunity to boost if they decide to, which means its not exclusive. If you have completed the content on any character during the history of this game you haven't "skipped" any of the content. Winning would imply that there is a competition going on which their isn't.

    3. Does boosting allow you to win any sort of competition or advance you past someone who is unable to advance in the same manner?
    Answer - No, not at all. No explanation is needed. The only thing you get from a boost is time, in leveling but it requires you to revisit previous zones to level professions and reputations. Any player can boost, its not exclusive. Having boosted also doesn't impact other players outside of their delicate emotional attachments with spending money.

    Honestly the only thing I would consider P2W is tokens and BOE purchases but that's not a solid argument either.
    1. Boosting absolutely gives an advantage because they are getting to skip a large portion of the leveling process. That gives a player a huge head start over another player who isn't spending money and is doing the ridiculous vanilla grind to get to TBC entry level. So you're wrong, it absolutely is an advantage by definition.

    2. Saying everyone has the opportunity to boost is such a fallacy because it doesn't matter if they can or not. A player dropping real money to skip a huge chunk of content puts them immediately ahead of players who didn't pay.

    P2W options don't need to be exclusive so I'm not sure why you tried to use that as a point. You are literally 100% wrong in all your justifications for why WoW isn't p2w.

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