1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    1. Boosting absolutely gives an advantage because they are getting to skip a large portion of the leveling process. That gives a player a huge head start over another player who isn't spending money and is doing the ridiculous vanilla grind to get to TBC entry level. So you're wrong, it absolutely is an advantage by definition.
    Playing a videogame is not a race

    If i buy Mario Kart 1 month before you...is that a problem for anyone?
    If i reach max level before another person...whats the big deal?

    Like i said, this topic is very versatile

    Is entirely possible another videogame is pay to win with a level boost

    I dont think in this case (WoW) it is...in any way or form

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    It is, it would just require enormous sums of cash to repeatedly "win". Anyway, WoW is an MMO at the end of it's lifetime. Doesn't matter to me if it's pay to win now, it wasn't when it mattered to me.
    My thoughts as well. I still remember when Pardo, one of the game's founding fathers, said that the increasingly prevalent payment system is unfair to gamers in subscription-based games like World of Warcraft. Oh boy, how the times have changed...

    I frankly don't give a !@#$ about Blizz's smart (and largely successful) attempts at shearing what remains of their playerbase, but seeing a very vocal part of these remains arguing that there are no P2W elements whatsoever in WoW is amusing... and quite sad if you think about it.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    BoE's with gold

    I think there is an argument about those to be Pay to Win

    Level Boost...no

    Buying boosts with gold from other players...no
    This is no different from asking an illegal site to boost you...
    Every game is pay to win if you think this is
    You can literally ask someone else to boost you in any game...this is no different
    Another way to think is that "No MMORPG is truly pay to win, if you think this isn't".
    There is no clear definition of winning in MMORPGs, so all we are doing is "Pay for Convinicience", "Pay to Skip Grinds" and "Pay to Save Time".

    And in cases one purchases super powerful armor unavailable via other means, one can simply use an argument that I've already seen in this thread that is, bad player with said armor isn't going to win anything so it's not P2W.

    What about the plethora of mobiles games where whales steamroll the average player because they purchase power (that is, in fact, obtainable by everyone that plays that game for an extremely long period of time) that so easily gets the bad reputation of being P2W? Are those classifications not accurate, since those whales are merely "Paying for Convinience"?
    Last edited by Darkeon; 2021-06-03 at 03:33 AM.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    1. Boosting absolutely gives an advantage because they are getting to skip a large portion of the leveling process. That gives a player a huge head start over another player who isn't spending money and is doing the ridiculous vanilla grind to get to TBC entry level. So you're wrong, it absolutely is an advantage by definition.

    2. Saying everyone has the opportunity to boost is such a fallacy because it doesn't matter if they can or not. A player dropping real money to skip a huge chunk of content puts them immediately ahead of players who didn't pay.

    P2W options don't need to be exclusive so I'm not sure why you tried to use that as a point. You are literally 100% wrong in all your justifications for why WoW isn't p2w.
    1. What is the advantage they get by skipping a large portion of the leveling process other than time? It took me less than 2 weeks to level a shaman pre-patch and have it ready for TBC. What advantage would it provide me having boosted a character in order to be ready for TBC? A boosted character can't progress into TBC any faster than me and I out gear the boosted character hands down.

    2. I didn't boost my shaman and I started TBC the same time as everyone else with blues and epics, professions progressed and a good amount of gold The guys that boosted started out with pretty much none of that and had to grind it like me. Most of the boosted guys in our guild haven't even really started professions and if they didn't have a max level well progressed level 60 would have practically no gold. A boosted character barely can train the spells they learn.

    3. P2W requires something be won. This isn't a competition, this isn't a race and no one wins or loses when a character is boosted. Everyone has the boost available so it not being exclusive is a point to be made, meaning anyone who chooses to boost can. By the definition given in this exact thread a boosted character is exactly NOT a P2W.

    You can have your opinion, and you can be strongly committed to your opinion but that means you disagree with others who don't share it, not that they are wrong.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    Another way to think is that "No MMORPG is truly pay to win, if you think this isn't".
    There is no clear definition of winning in MMORPGs, so all we are doing is "Pay for Convinicience", "Pay to Skip Grinds" and "Pay to Save Time".

    And in cases one purchases super powerful armor unavailable via other means, one can simply use an argument that I've already seen in this thread that is, bad player with said armor isn't going to win anything so it's not P2W.

    What about the plethora of mobiles games where whales steamroll the average player because they purchase power (that is, in fact, obtainable by everyone that plays that game for an extremely long period of time) that so easily gets the bad reputation of being P2W? Are those classifications not accurate?
    In my opinion...the science of it is this:

    Its P2W when is not reasonable how inconvenient it is to earn the power without spending money...and there is an instant option on the shop.

    What is not reasonable? Is open to debate.
    FIFA Ultimate team, from the gaming company EA, is advertised to not be pay to win because "you can have everything without spending any money"
    This is ofcourse NOT REASONABLE to say...because it takes YEARS of playtime for this to happen.
    Even though is technically "true"...is clearly "bullshit".

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    In my opinion...the science of it is this:

    Its P2W when is not reasonable how inconvinient it is to earn the power without spending money...and there is an instant option on the shop.

    What is not reasonable? Is open to debate.
    FIFA Ultimate team, from the gaming company EA, is advertised to not be pay to win because "you can have everything without spending any money"
    This is ofcourse NOT REASONABLE to say...because it takes YEARS of playtime for this to happen.
    Even though is technically "true"...is clearly "bullshit".
    That I can partially agree with.

    I simply find it to be a label that fits any situation where you can skip the any sizeable inconvinience by purchasing whatever allows you to bypass it, regardless of how reasonable or not the grind is.

    That there are some games that are objectively scummier with these tactics than others, yes, I can also agree with. WoW and FIFA Ultimate Team modes are definitely very far away from each other in this scale.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    That I can partially agree with.

    I simply find it to be a label that fits any situation where you can skip the any sizeable inconvinience by purchasing whatever allows you to bypass it, regardless of how reasonable or not the grind is.

    That there are some games that are objectively scummier with these tactics than others, yes, I can also agree with. WoW and FIFA Ultimate Team modes are definitely very far away from each other in this scale.
    Lets say you have a lvl 60 fully raid geared character and you decide to boost. Since you have completed all the "content" does this change your opinion?

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by InflaterMouse View Post
    Lets say you have a lvl 60 fully raid geared character and you decide to boost. Since you have completed all the "content" does this change your opinion?
    I'm confused by your premise.
    Last edited by Darkeon; 2021-06-03 at 03:53 AM. Reason: Durr, typos are bad

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    I'm confused by your permise.
    Unless I read your post incorrectly, you said that skipping an "inconvenience," which this discussion is regarding content and starting at level 58 is a definition of P2W. If you have a max level character who hasn't been boosted and hasn't skipped (inconvenience) any content but decide to boost a character would you still consider that a P2W transaction.

  10. #310
    You pay every month in order to win so....yes.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by InflaterMouse View Post
    Unless I read your post incorrectly, you said that skipping an "inconvenience," which this discussion is regarding content and starting at level 58 is a definition of P2W. If you have a max level character who hasn't been boosted and hasn't skipped (inconvenience) any content but decide to boost a character would you still consider that a P2W transaction.
    Well, using the previous FIFA Ultimate Team as an example, is there really any difference from an account of someone who literally grinded for years and has all the shit with someone who bought a shitton of booster packs and got all the shit? No, they have exactly the same things, so it's not like it'll guarantee the win for the booster player.

    When it comes to MMOs though, "winning" is very subjective. There is no Fade-to-Black, "You beat the game, congratulations!"-letters show up. Nor will it say you were the 10582th to kill the boss and you are ahead of your friends.

    Time spent though... that's a luxury.
    Player A and Player B start.
    Player A boosts and Player B doesn't.
    Player A just saved several days worth of grind, while Player B won't.

    And this is merely just around the Boost, which is in my opinion the least of the worries when it comes to "P2W" in WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    You pay every month in order to win so....yes.
    Not gonna lie, I chuckled. +1 internets for you, sir.

  12. #312
    Boosts you can buy for gold is a player created problem tho, hardly blizzards fault.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    Playing a videogame is not a race

    If i buy Mario Kart 1 month before you...is that a problem for anyone?
    If i reach max level before another person...whats the big deal?

    Like i said, this topic is very versatile

    Is entirely possible another videogame is pay to win with a level boost

    I dont think in this case (WoW) it is...in any way or form
    This is such a ridiculous strawman. Mario Kart has absolutely no levels or endgame content. It's also not an MMO where you can't experience chunks of the content until after you have gotten a character to a certain level. Paid level boosts are 100% a form of pay to win because it is giving you an advantage over players NOT spending money to level boost a character. You will get into endgame content MUCH quicker and as a result, it's a form of p2w.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by InflaterMouse View Post
    1. What is the advantage they get by skipping a large portion of the leveling process other than time? It took me less than 2 weeks to level a shaman pre-patch and have it ready for TBC. What advantage would it provide me having boosted a character in order to be ready for TBC? A boosted character can't progress into TBC any faster than me and I out gear the boosted character hands down.

    2. I didn't boost my shaman and I started TBC the same time as everyone else with blues and epics, professions progressed and a good amount of gold The guys that boosted started out with pretty much none of that and had to grind it like me. Most of the boosted guys in our guild haven't even really started professions and if they didn't have a max level well progressed level 60 would have practically no gold. A boosted character barely can train the spells they learn.

    3. P2W requires something be won. This isn't a competition, this isn't a race and no one wins or loses when a character is boosted. Everyone has the boost available so it not being exclusive is a point to be made, meaning anyone who chooses to boost can. By the definition given in this exact thread a boosted character is exactly NOT a P2W.

    You can have your opinion, and you can be strongly committed to your opinion but that means you disagree with others who don't share it, not that they are wrong.
    1. You will replace vanilla gear with TBC gear during the leveling process so that's irrelevant to mention. If a player didn't play Classic but started with TBC, they would need to grind through classic leveling content before even touching TBC. Which is why buying a level boost is pay to win since it is granting an advantage.

    2. Professions are utterly irrelevant to mention because people can just buy crap off the AH. Gold is easy to come by especially if you immediately boost your character. I also doubt Blizzard is going to let someone boost a character but not level all of their spells to the point they would be at by level 58 otherwise the boost would be utterly worthless.

    3. It doesn't fucking require anything to be actively won because by the definition p2w MMOs don't exist. If you can spend real money to gain advantages over players who are NOT spending real money on those advantages, then it is 100% p2w. Once again, making the comment about how anyone can do it is utterly irrelevant. I'm not just disagreeing with your opinion. You're just flat out wrong. Buying a character level boost is a form of p2w in the same way cash shop items that supply exp boosts, increased loot chances, and items that buff currency drops are all forms of p2w. You just have absolutely no idea what p2w is or you're just being purposely obtuse so you can avoid saying anything negative about WoW.

  14. #314
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    Pretending you actually won anything in the game by buying gear or boosts is like pretending the hooker you paid for a fuck loves you. Dumbasses.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    Pretending you actually won anything in the game by buying gear or boosts is like pretending the hooker you paid for a fuck loves you. Dumbasses.
    Hey pal, Kandy said I was her favorite customer so stfu?

  16. #316
    Correct because buying the full set of mythic raid gear is not exclusive to real money trading. The gold can be farmed in game, the drops drop from mythic raid bosses in game. Both of these are obtainable in game without paying. If say class A gets a SUPER SECRET SKILL LINE that outperforms every other talent it has and its locked behind a paywall THAT is pay to win. An ADVANTAGE that CANNOT BE AQUIRED by ANY OTHER MEANS. You can get mythic drops by playing the game, you can get pvp drops by playing the game, you can get lvl 60 by playing the game, you can GET GOLD by playing the game. Buying 5k gold or w/e with 20bucks when you can farm 5k gold in a couple of hours is NOT PAY TO WIN. USING IN GAME CURRENCY THAT IS EASILY OBTAINABLE paying other people to help you IS NOT PAY TO WIN. Idk why you guys have this weird concept it is. Using 60 bucks to save u what 12hours to lvl to 60 is NOT PAY TO WIN. ESPECIALLY when you can FARM IN GAME GOLD AND CONVERT IT TO CREDIT TO BUY THE SKIP WITH IN GAME GOLD.

  17. #317
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    It really, really isn't.

    You can buy gold? You can also just farm it. Or play around on the AH for it.
    You can use gold to buy boosts? Yeah, I can also pay someone to farm diamonds in Minecraft for me, that doesn't make it P2W
    You can buy BoEs? From someone who farmed them without buying them.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    This is such a ridiculous strawman. Mario Kart has absolutely no levels or endgame content. It's also not an MMO where you can't experience chunks of the content until after you have gotten a character to a certain level. Paid level boosts are 100% a form of pay to win because it is giving you an advantage over players NOT spending money to level boost a character. You will get into endgame content MUCH quicker and as a result, it's a form of p2w.

    - - - Updated - - -



    1. You will replace vanilla gear with TBC gear during the leveling process so that's irrelevant to mention. If a player didn't play Classic but started with TBC, they would need to grind through classic leveling content before even touching TBC. Which is why buying a level boost is pay to win since it is granting an advantage.

    2. Professions are utterly irrelevant to mention because people can just buy crap off the AH. Gold is easy to come by especially if you immediately boost your character. I also doubt Blizzard is going to let someone boost a character but not level all of their spells to the point they would be at by level 58 otherwise the boost would be utterly worthless.

    3. It doesn't fucking require anything to be actively won because by the definition p2w MMOs don't exist. If you can spend real money to gain advantages over players who are NOT spending real money on those advantages, then it is 100% p2w. Once again, making the comment about how anyone can do it is utterly irrelevant. I'm not just disagreeing with your opinion. You're just flat out wrong. Buying a character level boost is a form of p2w in the same way cash shop items that supply exp boosts, increased loot chances, and items that buff currency drops are all forms of p2w. You just have absolutely no idea what p2w is or you're just being purposely obtuse so you can avoid saying anything negative about WoW.
    So there is a definition, numerous actually, of what a P2W is. As you stated, it doesn't specifically include what p2w is for an mmo so you trying to make points out of opinions and fucking justify them with your "own" logic is no more relevant in this conversation than anything I fucking said. All you are doing is voicing an opinion and marking off things in our conversation from my point of view, discounting them with your own fucking opinion and then saying I'm wrong.

    I have no reason to be obtuse, I have played games of all kinds for decades and have a very good understanding of p2w and how it works but you and I disagree on this point. I will make a point and then I will bow out of OUR conversation as you seem angry already and I feel it will further degrade the topic. You have literally brought no more logic to this conversation than anyone else. Stop saying it's a 100% form of p2w, you clearly stated already there isn't a definition of p2w for mmos, so this is just your uneducated opinion as much as anything.

    The points you have tried to make are based on you trying to discount other people's points by thumping your chest and saying "I'm right and your wrong, BECAUSE!" The OPINIONS you added to this conversation are just that, no more factual than anyone else's opinions and you provided the data to discount your own opinions by stating there is no definition to mmo p2w, which I find humorous. Good day sir lol.
    Last edited by InflaterMouse; 2021-06-03 at 06:00 AM.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by dwarven View Post
    It became pay to win as soon as they added the token.
    And you win what exactly? Piece of gear? People that are boosting you won already...

  20. #320
    Here's the answer: It's no. It's always no. It will always be no. Until Blizzard directly offers gear on the Blizzard store, it is not, by definition P2W. Buying BoEs with in-game currency is not P2W. Buying boosts with in-game currency is not P2W. These things would both exist even if Blizzard had BiS gear on the store anyway.

    Please stop arguing about your personal opinion of what you think defines P2W. You are wrong.

    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2021-06-03 at 06:11 AM.

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