1. #3201
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Totally. "The vast majority" is RMT because the thousands of gold boosts spammed in every corner of the game everyday are somehow the minority. Again that fantastic logic. In your fantastic world average people would chose extra risks for rmt instead of buying token with Blizzard's cheers and seals of approval.

    And finally the typical shill " bro do you have the affidavits from Kotick and ATVI accountants for that obvious common knowledge ? "
    There aren't "extra risks" with RMT these days. Buying a boost with RMT from a boosting community is about as legitimate as buying a WoW token. (And, like I said, cheaper and more immediate than the Blizzard alternative.) There's no need to compromise accounts anymore because two expansions of being able to farm infinite gold have given these communities enough virtual capital to last a million lifetimes. The boosting communities only pay the people who do the boosts in gold so there's multiple levels of culpable deniability. Don't believe me? Here's ex-raid leader of Method (now Echo) saying they bought gold from a boosting community that got shut down for RMT last year.



    Still don't believe me? Go ahead and check out the names of all the top boosting communities. They're all Chinese. Wonder why that is?

    Keep in mind, also, that I'm not saying that there aren't people who do buy WoW tokens for boosts. I'm sure these people exist. But I don't think it's nearly as endemic as you seem to think it is, especially given how legitimate boosting for RMT is these days. You could make a compelling argument that the token has helped create legitimacy for RMT boosting and I'd be inclined to agree with you there but, again, this is more of a hollow rebuke of capitalism than it is the token itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    And finally the typical shill " bro do you have the affidavits from Kotick and ATVI accountants for that obvious common knowledge ? "
    And finally, in the absence of an actual argument, you've decided to call me a shill and pretend that your baseless accusation is "common knowledge."
    Last edited by Relapses; 2021-10-16 at 01:31 PM.
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  2. #3202
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Totally. "The vast majority" is RMT because the thousands of gold boosts spammed in every corner of the game everyday are somehow the minority. Again that fantastic logic. In your fantastic world average people would chose extra risks for rmt instead of buying token with Blizzard's cheers and seals of approval.

    And finally the typical shill " bro do you have the affidavits from Kotick and ATVI accountants for that obvious common knowledge ? "
    If spammed promotions and adverts show something is done by a majority, then the majority of players in Vanilla were buying gold and character boosts. Personally though I don't think you can really gage how much something is used based on how often it is advertised.

  3. #3203
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    The token never created boosting. Boosting predates tokens. And if you honestly believe that without the token, boosting would die, you're completely delusional.
    I never said boosting would dissappear, boosting as you said, has always existed, but not to the degree we see today. The only way these boosting communities survive is because people who dont have time to play the game pay real money for gold that can be used for boosts.

    It's the very definition of pay to win.

    Boosting was a thing pre-token, but it was reserved to the people who played the auction house or farmed their ass off. Not just joe schmo who wanted to drop a 100 bucks to get his alts geared in a week.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The sky is not the limit with the token though. Other players farming the gold is. It is possible for tokens to sell out and have none available for purchase.
    It's circular, so infinite really.

    I sell a token to you for gold, i give the gold from the token to you for a boost, repeat.

  4. #3204
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaykay View Post
    I sell a token to you for gold, i give the gold from the token to you for a boost, repeat.
    If you are selling a token that means you paid real money for it. Those offering to carry others are not the same ones selling tokens. They would be the ones buying the tokens with their gold. It isn't circular, at least not in a 1:1 manner. Gold is still gained through some effort or service in the game and not created by tokens. If no one is willing to buy/sell tokens then there will be no transaction.

    The participation is the limit, not the sky.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #3205
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If you are selling a token that means you paid real money for it. Those offering to carry others are not the same ones selling tokens. They would be the ones buying the tokens with their gold. It isn't circular, at least not in a 1:1 manner. Gold is still gained through some effort or service in the game and not created by tokens. If no one is willing to buy/sell tokens then there will be no transaction.

    The participation is the limit, not the sky.
    All this just ensures is that there isn't massive gold inflation caused by WoW Token RMT gold buying. It still makes the game P2W.

  6. #3206
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    All this just ensures is that there isn't massive gold inflation caused by WoW Token RMT gold buying. It still makes the game P2W.
    Buying gold is not a win though. It is a micro transaction. You can do anything you want with gold that the game normally lets you do with gold. There is no direct power gain tied to the token.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #3207
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Buying gold is not a win though. It is a micro transaction. You can do anything you want with gold that the game normally lets you do with gold. There is no direct power gain tied to the token.
    Echo spent 478 million gold on their world first race, lol 'no power gain tied to the token' my ass.

  8. #3208
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Echo spent 478 million gold on their world first race, lol 'no power gain tied to the token' my ass.
    Wait, do you actually think that Echo spent $50,000 on WoW tokens?
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  9. #3209
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Wait, do you actually think that Echo spent $50,000 on WoW tokens?
    Doesn't matter where they bought the gold, just proof that WoW's a pay-to-win game. Who you pay off, whether its Blizz or some Venezuelan gold farmers, doesn't change WoW being pay-to-win. It's intrinsic to the game design.

  10. #3210
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Doesn't matter where they bought the gold, just proof that WoW's a pay-to-win game. Who you pay off, whether its Blizz or some Venezuelan gold farmers, doesn't change WoW being pay-to-win. It's intrinsic to the game design.
    So now Blizzard designed the entire game to be a capitalist's wet dream from the beginning? D'aww, look at your cute little conspiracy theory go!
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  11. #3211
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    So now Blizzard designed the entire game to be a capitalist's wet dream from the beginning? D'aww, look at your cute little conspiracy theory go!
    Lol, we got a currency-based in game economy, and where high end play depends on having an unattainable amount of in-game capital, capitalist wet dream is putting it lightly. It's more like this:


  12. #3212
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Lol, we got a currency-based in game economy, and where high end play depends on having an unattainable amount of in-game capital, capitalist wet dream is putting it lightly. It's more like this:

    Man, you're one step away from posting Joker memes. Calm down. I get it, we live in a society.

    But really, I don't think you understand what the argument against calling WoW P2W (at least by your definition) is. It's that if you want to say that WoW is P2W (and always has been) then really pretty much anything in the world is P2W. And if that's the case, your argument has nothing to do with WoW being P2W... it's a hollow rebuke of capitalism.

    Catchy video, though. I'll give you that.
    Last edited by Relapses; 2021-10-16 at 08:29 PM.
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  13. #3213
    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Echo spent 478 million gold on their world first race, lol 'no power gain tied to the token' my ass.
    Buying gold, or tokens, does not give power. Gold can bring power but that is a normal part of the game. It is not a direct transaction of Real Money for Character Power.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Lol, we got a currency-based in game economy, and where high end play depends on having an unattainable amount of in-game capital, capitalist wet dream is putting it lightly.
    If it is unattainable how was is obtained for the world first races? The entire way "illegal" or "legal" micro transactions for gold work is because that gold is obtainable by someone. Having gold isn't the win though.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #3214
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If it is unattainable how was is obtained for the world first races? The entire way "illegal" or "legal" micro transactions for gold work is because that gold is obtainable by someone. Having gold isn't the win though.
    Unattainable by normal player standards. It may have been attainable by gold farming companies, or someone with a multiple bots. That amount of gold is unattainable for most players unless it was the only thing (gold farming) they are doing. I don't reasonably expect even some of the most hardcore goblins to have that kind of gold by themselves let alone willing to let such a high amount go to someone else without paying for it.

    Under normal circumstances they wouldn't have that gold in order to participate in the WF race, hence the need to buy it

  15. #3215
    I'm genuinely shocked so many people don't know what pay2win means. It's not hard at all to fathom if you look at countless other monetized games, especially mobile ones or the legion of freemium games coming out of Asia over the last ~20 years.

    A character boost is not pay 2 win, it's pay 2 not grind or pay 2 skip. Spending money or gold for m+ or mythic runs is likewise, not pay2win, especially since it requires the help of other people. Common pay2win is simply a person spending real money having a definitive, unobtainable advantage compared to someone who doesn't spend money. No matter how much real money you sink into being mythic carried, at the end of the day a group of people still had to carry you on their own power and skill. Real pay to win would like buying an item that provided you a permanent benefit that couldn't be acquired through normal means; for example, a person spending $20 to acquire a ring that grants them permanent movement speed, damage bonus, health bonus, etc. No matter how minimal the buff is, even if it's something like 2% health, you officially have hit pay2win territory because it's an advantage that a person spent out of game resources to purchase and can be used against others in a competitive environment.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Doesn't matter where they bought the gold, just proof that WoW's a pay-to-win game. Who you pay off, whether its Blizz or some Venezuelan gold farmers, doesn't change WoW being pay-to-win. It's intrinsic to the game design.
    Wait, you seriously believe that ~500 million gold was all linked to tokens and that it's the reason they could participate in a world first race? Seriously? Making money on high pop servers is not some mystical thing dude. Furthermore, them using an in-game resource doesn't play the game for them, nor does it exclude others from competing. The BoE's had to come from somewhere. The PVP runs had to use the assistance of other players. The consumables had to be made. All this obtainable through in-game resources generated by players, and none of it excluded from their competitors who don't spend. Furthermore, all if it becomes tangibly useless if none of the players execute.

    Now if you told me they spent $ to have something no one could have without spending $, then it would be pay2win... that's obviously not the case. Your point becomes further diluted once you frame it from the point of the entire playerbase being able to experience the content - what did they actually win here with $? Being world first is nice, but ultimately meaningless to millions of other players who don't experience the content, or thousands of other players who DO clear mythic without spending a single dollar. What did they lose by not spending money? The answer is nothing. The world first race is a player-generated concept to begin with that holds value to a very, very tiny portion of the playerbase.

  16. #3216
    Quote Originally Posted by Ekis View Post
    Unattainable by normal player standards. It may have been attainable by gold farming companies, or someone with a multiple bots
    If they are buying tokens then the are likely buying from players. Gold farming bots likely wouldn't be selling for the same rate as Blizzard due to the volatile nature of their business. That is the thing about the token. It is attainable by any player because it is 100% player funded. Every amount of gold was obtained by a player at some point. Sure some might be bots but I bet the vast majority is not.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #3217
    Elemental Lord
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,177
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    You seem very triggered by me for some reason.
    As I said, you came into this debate with arrogance and condescension. So I called you out on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    I came here to have a discussion and did just that
    Insulting people, dropping one liners, and telling others they are wrong because you disagree is NOT having a discussion.


    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    Just calm down, wow is p2w and as others have already said, that's okay.
    If you want to take the position that wow is p2w then you need to substantiate it. No, wow is not p2w. I have explained why, as have several others. And that is ok.

  18. #3218
    Quote Originally Posted by minitiative View Post
    Now if you told me they spent $ to have something no one could have without spending $, then it would be pay2win... that's obviously not the case. Your point becomes further diluted once you frame it from the point of the entire playerbase being able to experience the content - what did they actually win here with $? Being world first is nice, but ultimately meaningless to millions of other players who don't experience the content, or thousands of other players who DO clear mythic without spending a single dollar. What did they lose by not spending money? The answer is nothing. The world first race is a player-generated concept to begin with that holds value to a very, very tiny portion of the playerbase.
    Even though I fully agree with the reasoning behind your take, I do kind of have an issue with that last bit. Both Echo and Limit (the two guilds at the forefront of the RWF) are gaming organizations at this point. (As of the last few years, we've seen a stratification of guilds into organizations around the Top 10 in both regions, as well. But that's a slightly different topic.) There is a lot of eSports money that these organizations funnel into their players to ensure that they're able to continue performing at the highest level possible. So while there isn't anything to lose from a players' perspective, there's certain a level of performance expected due to the amount of resources put into these guilds by the organizations to make the RWF possible.
    New BiS for 9.1!

    [ twitch ][ Retired Semi-retired as of 2018 ] [ The Official MMO-Champion Bingo Card. ] [ WoW's Community in 2021, illustrated ]
    [ That time I predicted the future...twice. ] [ How do you know if somebody posting on a WoW forum is a FFXIV player? Don't worry, they'll tell you. ]

  19. #3219
    Bought H Denatrius kill so I could quit earlier. So yes, it is p2w

  20. #3220
    Quote Originally Posted by Garretdejiko View Post
    Bought H Denatrius kill so I could quit earlier. So yes, it is p2w
    Did you seriously think you "won" by having a heroic kill, especially a purchased one? That's like asking a friend to beat Super Mario for you and then bragging to others for having completing it. You didn't win anything, i'd say.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •