Page 17 of 115 FirstFirst ...
7
15
16
17
18
19
27
67
... LastLast
  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Here's the answer: It's no. It's always no. It will always be no. Until Blizzard directly offers gear on the Blizzard store, it is not, by definition P2W. Buying BoEs with in-game currency is not P2W. Buying boosts with in-game currency is not P2W. These things would both exist even if Blizzard had BiS gear on the store anyway.

    Please stop arguing about your personal opinion of what you think defines P2W. You are wrong.

    Have a nice day.
    Honestly I kind of thought p2w with tokens and BOE gear but have kind of changed my mind because players provide the BOE gear not blizz. I agree with you on this.

  2. #322
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    33,968
    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    If the developer sells gold, and that gold is used to buy these exact things, what difference is there functionally? You are indirectly purchasing these things from the developer.
    Well, that boils down to the game having been P2W since its existence then. For Blizzard are only selling you game-time that you can safely and legally sell in-game for gold, unlike before, where you had a high chance of getting scammed and it was against ToS to sell game-time for gold.

    My belief has always been, as said, P2W is when the developers directly sell you such as my examples. Because if we go with the whole indirect argument, then a game would turn P2W if I offer acquaintances game merch for the price of in-game gold - yes - illegal but that does not change the fact that it is P2W then but the arguments of indirectly, since the merch was purchased from the developer and sold for gold to someone else.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It was illegal back then, and could get you banned. It all magically changed once it was endorsed by Blizz.
    So. With this argument is, that it is only P2W because it is now legal and safe to do it (safe'ish, there are still douchebag scammers)? It is only P2W because everyone has access to it and can get it?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    In my opinion...the science of it is this:

    Its P2W when is not reasonable how inconvenient it is to earn the power without spending money...and there is an instant option on the shop.

    What is not reasonable? Is open to debate.
    FIFA Ultimate team, from the gaming company EA, is advertised to not be pay to win because "you can have everything without spending any money"
    This is ofcourse NOT REASONABLE to say...because it takes YEARS of playtime for this to happen.
    Even though is technically "true"...is clearly "bullshit".
    That. Right there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedlance View Post
    Boosts you can buy for gold is a player created problem tho, hardly blizzards fault.
    Tried telling them that but apparently, it is Blizzard's indirect P2W service because of the ability to trade game-time for gold legally. It apparently was not P2W when it was illegal to do.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  3. #323
    A long time ago before the token, gold sellers would farm stuff, and would also hack accounts then empty those.

    I've had a few friends get hacked, and it was not pretty.

    IMHO, so while the token has created some problems it has solved greater ones.

  4. #324
    Stood in the Fire Agent Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Heart O' The City
    Posts
    456
    Quote Originally Posted by Paperfox View Post
    A long time ago before the token, gold sellers would farm stuff, and would also hack accounts then empty those.

    I've had a few friends get hacked, and it was not pretty.

    IMHO, so while the token has created some problems it has solved greater ones.
    They didn't. They chose the more profitable of evils: being their own gold farmers and they severely impacted the WoW economy forever. Million gold mounts??? When have we ever? Blizzard was only able to ask for those types of prices these last two xpacs because they know that some people would eventually just purchase tokens to buy said mounts.

  5. #325
    ITT people who can't define what the "win" is in the p2w and people who think having high ilvl is somehow winning(probably the self proclaimed "casuals" who don't even want to step into a dungeon).

  6. #326
    Legendary! Zuben's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    6,453
    If the gold market affects the PVP scene I suppose you could say WoW is pay to win, though I don't see why anyone should care what gear others have in PVE.
    Now you see it. Now you don't.

  7. #327
    The Lightbringer Lollis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    England
    Posts
    3,411
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    actually i doubt u do
    Let's talk about a stupid mobile game like a farm simulator, free to play u have to wait hours until corps can be harvested, but if u pay real life money u skip those hours and get it immediately
    wow is exactly same, pay u get instant boost, pay u get instant gear from AH, pay u get boost in raids, or do them the slow way of actually playing and waiting
    You need to try a little harder, because you''re just flat out wrong.

    You need to specify EXACTLY what you are winning by paying for any of those services that means EVERYONE ELSE must be losing. For there to be a winner, there MUST be a loser.

    • Everyone else isn't losing if you are carried to getting the same gear level as other people, you are at most paying to catch up.
    • Everyone else isn't losing if you pay for a level boost on an old server, because everyone else is already 60.
    • Everyone else isn't losing if you pay for gear off the AH, because it ONLY exists because someone already did the work for you to farm it.

    There is absolutely NOTHING in WoW that you can buy that puts you at an advantage against everyone else who doesn't. That's the absolute requirement for a truly pay to win game.
    Last edited by Lollis; 2021-06-03 at 07:52 AM.
    Speciation Is Gradual

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Here's the answer: It's no. It's always no. It will always be no. Until Blizzard directly offers gear on the Blizzard store, it is not, by definition P2W. Buying BoEs with in-game currency is not P2W. Buying boosts with in-game currency is not P2W. These things would both exist even if Blizzard had BiS gear on the store anyway.

    Please stop arguing about your personal opinion of what you think defines P2W. You are wrong.

    Have a nice day.
    This is the reason why true P2W games on phones all have dozens of currency to avoid "directly offers gear on the store" just to appeal to YOUR simpleton definition.

  9. #329
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    33,968
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    They didn't. They chose the more profitable of evils: being their own gold farmers and they severely impacted the WoW economy forever. Million gold mounts??? When have we ever? Blizzard was only able to ask for those types of prices these last two xpacs because they know that some people would eventually just purchase tokens to buy said mounts.
    But, other players have had millions of gold before the token as well? Gold isn't really had to get in WoW, especially not during MoP and WoD (WoD basically throwing the gold at you, and then the token came, so, people could keep playing the game without using real money).
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    How many world firsts do you have? Im curious. Because if its zero, then you're essentially sinking your time in for mediocrity. My time is more valuable and used elsewhere. Ill drop money on mediocrity and go chat it up with the neighbor. You can sit there and strategize and enjoy how you invest your time.

    Money is easily replaced, time isn't.
    It was in no way my intention to say that people that don't get world 1st are "bad" or worth less or anything of that sort.
    My point was/is to say that no-one can buy their way to anything in WoW that skilled/dedicated people won't already have done a long time before such a person.

    I play on the level appropriate to my skill/time investment and try to do my best and push with people with a similar skill/dedication as me.
    And my skill level and time investment most certainly don't make me a world 1st raider! But I demand the best from myself and those I play with.

    So for me paying for a boost is to pay to not play the game: What fun is there to be competitive if you don't compete?

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    Playing a videogame is not a race

    If i buy Mario Kart 1 month before you...is that a problem for anyone?
    If i reach max level before another person...whats the big deal?

    Like i said, this topic is very versatile

    Is entirely possible another videogame is pay to win with a level boost

    I dont think in this case (WoW) it is...in any way or form
    What an analogy. I dont know man....

    -Can you control a market by having mario kart 1 month before me?
    -Can you buy currency in Mario kart with real money that gets you a faster car on day 1 while I have to grind months for it?

    One more addition. You guys always use shitty players as an example for your strawman arguments. In this case you would say:
    "Well Jimmy didnt win anything by buying the faster car because he still has to beat you in a race and Jimmy is bad so its ok"

    What if Jimmy is a good player? You think good players dont buy advantages? What happens when 2 equally skilled teams are met in the arena but one team is decked in boes on week 1 because they swiped their cards and the other one is in dungeon gear and a mix of pvp blues? Or better yet what happens when a team that is only slightly worse in terms of skill but has the gear advantage through credit card means meets a team that is slightly better?
    It will either lead to an even playing field or the slightly worse team winning because gear will matter more than a marginal skill difference. And in the first case, even though an even playing field sounds good on paper, this is not a case where the field should be even as one team is indeed better than the other.
    Last edited by Delever; 2021-06-03 at 08:21 AM.

  12. #332
    How can anyone consider it a pay 2 win??

    Boosts, to begin with, are player provided services. The fact that you buy a boost from people who have been farming that content, already makes you not win against them. Yes, you can 'win' the game by 'killing' the final boss on the hardest difficulty (carried though it, most likely lying somewhere dead). But what do you with that? You can brag to your friends and delusionally please your ego? People buy boosts to have easier access (like buying AOTC to get into pugs) or to get gear.

    Even if you buy a full mythic run with all the gear begin funnelled to you, you will only be as powerful as people who have been doing mythic by themselves or farming +15s. But once you step into the harder content (higher keys, next tier mythic), your lack of skill will show everything, and you will be behind others who don't have that achievement or have lower ilvl.

    People who actually win in this game are not the ones who pay, they are the ones who will be paid selling boosts, or just being high ranked.

    Buying BoEs can only give a small edge in performance, but only if you are highly skilled, otherwise its an even smaller increase.

    IF someone remembers when BGs were not scaled by level, but had level brackets for participants. We had twinks that were precisely geared to be as op as possible and obliterated the majority. If you could buy that gear for real money - that would be p2W; but you had to farm/craft/buy on AH that gear, and money->gold conversion was illegal back then. And it was only lower level brackets without rankings and so had little to no impact on the game.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    ANd people who pay don't have fun? That is a very ignorant and elitist generalization as I can assure you that there are plenty of people who have bought things enjoy playing the game, starting with me. You are not the sole arbiter of who is having fun in game.
    Oh but I don't even claim I am! You're buying things and have fun with them, great - I'm not the one trying to stop you. Like I've said before, for all I care Blizzard can sell BIS gear for dollars and you can buy whatever you want. My kind of fun doesn't come from comparing myself to others, so it doesn't influence my game in any shape or form.

    Still, the guy claims he bought CN runs, 'cause doing it legitimate way is "grinding"; he bought KSM for the same reason (while his poor, desperate guildie is still "grinding" for it...). He bought the Thorgast mount, because quite clearly Thorgast is grindy... I mean, if you despise main activities of a game so much that you'd rather buy them than do them - what do you actually do in the game? Maybe he's an avid PvPer, or maybe he simply enjoys running through Orgrimmar on all the mounts he bought, I don't know - I was just curious, but didn't get an answer.

    But yeah, if you enjoy buing things - go for it, man! I honestly couldn't care less how a few million people who play this game outside of my guild have fun.

    EDIT: No, he's probably not an avid PvPer, as I remember him saying something about buying 2100 rank.
    Last edited by Rageonit; 2021-06-03 at 09:06 AM.

  14. #334
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Strasbourg
    Posts
    1,266
    So, it's this one again, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Theme (in a sense) overlaps with game token's discussions, which arise quite regularly. Here I'm, perhaps, more on the side of those who're trying to prove that it's enough "real money" involvement for a full-fledged discussion to appear... but even then I'll clarify that the more significant is degree of growth/progress (and hence "bought power/advantage", leap) and the more difficult it is to obtain such (effort/time), the more relevant question is. And now... *coughing looking at ilvl growth, systems of dungeon/raid modes and degree of influence of secondary/earned&purchased "borrowed powers"* you can continue your discussion in more focused and reasoned sense.

    I'm against involvement of real money in "valuable" process, and it doesn't matter for me whether it's illegal third-party persons or company itself. I'd understand if they just provide (= encouraged with) subscription or wow/blizzard-money (which can't be obtained by real currency, only by playing games, possible even can be donated to others within dev's "virtual space", kind of "reputation/merit" points) in exchange for virtual gold while zealously protecting very process of in-game earnings (turning it into something like representative/advertising/promotional part of their "expenses/financial losses" ⇒ support of honest, stable and hardworking subscriber (also polite&helpful?); it's clear that this would have to revise current prices for such services), but they don't do it, they don’t bother about both. Their decision is "freebie and laziness", yes it's profitable, no one will deny it, but imo it's also dishonorable and unfortunate for in-game climate and game design (imposes certain requirements and restrictions, which I talk about in link at the beginning of this message).
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2021-06-06 at 08:40 AM.
    __---=== IMHO(+cg) and MORE |"links-inside" ===---__

    __---=== PM me WHERE if I'm unnecessarily "notifying" you ===---__

  15. #335
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    WORST country on earth (aka egypt)
    Posts
    8,043
    Quote Originally Posted by Lollis View Post
    You need to try a little harder, because you''re just flat out wrong.

    You need to specify EXACTLY what you are winning by paying for any of those services that means EVERYONE ELSE must be losing.
    what? how and why?
    when Nasa landed on mars, who lost exactly? marsians? there are things that u can win and no one lose

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Toybox View Post
    If someone spends £100 to have a smidge more power until the next patch...? I don't see how anyone can look at their iLvl go up a point or two because of a few BoEs & get any sort of sense of accomplishment.
    when u work daily 8 hours and u have to clean and cook and wash ur clothes and take care of ur house and then start play wow, only to find someone just payed to get boost and ahead of curve heroic KJ while u can't even pug it normal because achievement is required and u didn't even get a mythic-ready raiding gear because u literally won't eat if u do that
    now tell me that's a fair competition
    As late totalbiscuit said: there shouldn't be ANY form of payment for a full priced game in first place, be it wow, or mortal kombat or assassin creed, if they want micros set the game free, not make us pay full price and still wall stuff behind either massive grind or micros

    WoW p2w doesn't get u the best, but it still cheats a LOT of effort and time
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  16. #336
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Under construction
    Posts
    14,094
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    what? how and why?
    when Nasa landed on mars, who lost exactly? marsians? there are things that u can win and no one lose
    When they did it first? Everyone else who wanted to do it before them lost.

    Them doing it again and again isn't really winning. It's a good thing, yes, but they don't win anything, because it's not a competition anymore. It's a cooperative effort

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    what? how and why?
    when Nasa landed on mars, who lost exactly? marsians? there are things that u can win and no one lose
    Uh, why even compare the two? WoW is a game; games have winners and losers, it's their inherent part.
    Flying to Mars is not a game.
    Now in a game like WoW it might be a tad harder to define a win and a loss, simply because it's a complex game with many disconnected activities, which means for each and every player, a win and a loss might mean something else.

  18. #338
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    33,968
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    when Nasa landed on mars, who lost exactly? marsians? there are things that u can win and no one lose
    Well, cooperative efforts with the credit cards? Basically, if we use this example, the only losers are the ones not part of the alliance of space agencies and contractors, which is like, three-four organizations, or maybe more depending on private businesses and goals, that are losing the race. Just like there was a loser for the space race.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  19. #339
    Brewmaster Malania's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Newcastle, UK
    Posts
    1,483
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    Yes, it is.
    1) You can use $$$ to buy a token which is equal to WOW gold.
    2) WOW gold can buy you: BOE gear and boosts (more gear).
    You can basically use $$$ to buy raid achieves (AOTC, KSM) and gear now.
    Blizz does nothing to stop the boosting because it drives token sales (goto line 1)
    What exactly are you winning at by this logic chain? Gear, achievements? Is that how you win the game? I can follow this chain without needing to use real money and I'd still be getting the same things which I paid for in game.

    Pay-to-win isn't actually defined by what most people think is. It's a paid advantage another person cannot get. You're paying to win because you have the advantage. There's nothing in pay-to-win that says someone can't pay to get gear that anyone else can get or get an achievement.

    Also people have different definitions of what exactly winning in the game is. Not everyone considers gear to be the aim of the game. Lastly even if you personally consider buying gold equal to pay-to-win I'm sorry to tell you but this game has had gold sellers since launch. If that's the issue, the game has always been pay to win and all MMO's are therefore by default pay to win as they all have the same problems.
    Last edited by Malania; 2021-06-03 at 01:36 PM. Reason: Flushed my answer out.

  20. #340
    In terms of strict definitions absolutely. The question is however how many actually do buy tokens to buy raid carries?
    Corporate wishes everyone a happy new year

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •