Page 25 of 113 FirstFirst ...
15
23
24
25
26
27
35
75
... LastLast
  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Other pay to win games like Black Desert Online offer items in their shop that give things like experience boosts while leveling. How is that ANY different than spending $60 to skip FIFTY LEVELS. I'd say that in that regard, WoW is much more guilty of pay to win than other games.
    And is a level in BDO comparable to one in WoW? 1-50 isn't even a major investment in WoW. Besides, boosts only go to a level at or below where the majority of the userbase already is. Are BDO exp boosts limited to that?

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And is a level in BDO comparable to one in WoW? 1-50 isn't even a major investment in WoW. Besides, boosts only go to a level at or below where the majority of the userbase already is. Are BDO exp boosts limited to that?
    In your opinion. But that's not the facts. It doesn't matter if YOU think it's trivial. The fact that you can literally skip huge swaths of content is the definition of an advantage.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I've posted facts about how it's an advantage. You have used your opinion to try and disprove those facts. You say it's not an advantage because it doesn't give you gold or profession levels. That is literally irrelevant. You are still paying to get player power. Adding more stipulations is nothing but you moving goalposts.
    The only fact you had was that it lets you skip the time investment.

    And I pointed out how that time investment skip also makes you miss out on quite a bit.


    This is why debating anything on here ultimately ends up as pointless though. You don't want to acknowledge the other side, you just want to be right.

    And before you try to flip that on me, you also ignore the fact that I have on multiple occasions acknowledge that you are right that it lets you skip the time investment. Others have also acknowledge that it lets you skip new players.

    But when confronted with points that are disadvantages, you refuse to actually listen or acknowledge anyone back. It's dishonest.

  4. #484
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    You were the one stating that the token, an item sold by Blizzard, is Pay2Win because you can acquire gold with it.

    So, I am then reaching out and saying that it would identify the game has having been legally Pay2Win since October 2006 but for a more exclusive customer base as the printing and sales of TCG started there, an item sold on behalf of Blizzard that can help you acquire gold as well.

    That is a fact if we classify the token as P2W, making indirect involvement of Blizzard to be P2W.
    I read your, grasping at straws, desperately trying to connect the two the first several times. Still not biting.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Rationally is applying the same rules you state for others to yourself. It is weird how you call being asked to practice what you preach as irrational.
    I stated my case clearly, concisely and as thoroughly as I could. You're the one using boring semantic arguments to undermine the purpose of what I'm saying. We don't even fully disagree, you just want to put a stupid fucking asterisk next the word P2W to include level boosts. This is the dumbest form of arguing on the internet so I'm not going to entertain this any longer.

  6. #486
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The only fact you had was that it lets you skip the time investment.

    And I pointed out how that time investment skip also makes you miss out on quite a bit.


    This is why debating anything on here ultimately ends up as pointless though. You don't want to acknowledge the other side, you just want to be right.

    And before you try to flip that on me, you also ignore the fact that I have on multiple occasions acknowledge that you are right that it lets you skip the time investment. Others have also acknowledge that it lets you skip new players.

    But when confronted with points that are disadvantages, you refuse to actually listen or acknowledge anyone back. It's dishonest.
    So because IN YOUR OPINION they're missing out on some things....that somehow makes it not an advantage? Are you serious? I'm not willing to acknowledge you're side of this because you're so blatantly wrong. You are bending over backwards to avoid admitting you're wrong and perpetually moving goalposts. YOU think that not getting that gold is a disadvantage and therefore makes buying the boost not p2w. That's asinine and wrong.

  7. #487
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    33,679
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyranis View Post
    I read your, grasping at straws, desperately trying to connect the two the first several times. Still not biting.
    *Shrugs* "You do you".

    If the token is P2W, then from a legal point, WoW has been P2W since October 2006, whether you like it or not.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    In your opinion. But that's not the facts. It doesn't matter if YOU think it's trivial. The fact that you can literally skip huge swaths of content is the definition of an advantage.
    No, 1-50 not being a major investment is fact. People play this game for hundreds of hours. 1-50 is done in a tiny fraction of that. The boost lets you skip a minor fraction of the game at most, and it still leaves you inferior to people that haven't boosted because they were already at that level. Everybody also gets one for free, so you don't actually have to pay for it.

    It at most gives an advantage to you personally by requiring you to invest less time to be adequate. It doesn't give you an advantage over others, as it would have to be P2W. Winning is more than just not losing.

  9. #489
    Elemental Lord callipygoustp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    San Francisco, CA
    Posts
    8,302
    Is WoW Pay 2 Win?
    Not at all. Come on man.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    So because IN YOUR OPINION they're missing out on some things....that somehow makes it not an advantage? Are you serious? I'm not willing to acknowledge you're side of this because you're so blatantly wrong. You are bending over backwards to avoid admitting you're wrong and perpetually moving goalposts. YOU think that not getting that gold is a disadvantage and therefore makes buying the boost not p2w. That's asinine and wrong.
    You realize moving the goalposts involves constantly shifting your point to prove that something fits?

    I've stuck with the fact that skipping the content is a disadvantage since the start. I haven't swayed or changed from that once. So maybe don't try to call fallacies if they're not even applicable? Kinda my point though, that you're not even trying to actually listen.

    On top of that, my response can just be "because IN YOUR OPINION, they spend less time playing, that's somehow an advantage?". So if you never play WoW, you truly won the most.
    Actually that might be true.

    Gold can be used to get boosts though. So yes, less gold can be considered a disadvantage.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, 1-50 not being a major investment is fact. People play this game for hundreds of hours. 1-50 is done in a tiny fraction of that. The boost lets you skip a minor fraction of the game at most, and it still leaves you inferior to people that haven't boosted because they were already at that level. Everybody also gets one for free, so you don't actually have to pay for it.

    It at most gives an advantage to you personally by requiring you to invest less time to be adequate. It doesn't give you an advantage over others, as it would have to be P2W. Winning is more than just not losing.
    So because you declared that skipping 50 levels worth of content isn't an advantage, that makes it so. Just stop. Just because YOU think it's minor doesn't make it minor. I've played the game since Wrath and even I think skipping 50 levels worth of content is pretty fucking significant. You are paying for an advantage over players who will be spending hours to level through that content because they didn't buy the boost.

    Just stop.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You're smart enough to realize...what?It's minimal to be able to disenchant every quest item you get? It's minimal to be able to skin every beast you kill? It's minimal to be able to mine/gather every node you see? That's what you consider minimal? That sounds more like you just don't care about it while leveling and consider it "minimal" because YOU think it's not important. Has nothing to do with intelligence.
    You ask what I'm smart enough to realize while also addressing it. You can still disenchant every quest item you get. You can still skin every beast you kill. The amount of materials you get from doing that while leveling 1 to 50 is minimal. If you are in chromie time you might get a good chunk to level one profession but only if you don't skip around. It is still far easier to out level the content and mass AoE pull and skin stuff.

    So it does seem like intelligence plays a factor if you can't see how out leveling content would be better for leveling old professions. It is minimal because it is minimal. Leveling is fast but profession ranks do not follow the same curve. Both with and with out Chromie time.


    What are you even talking about?
    You haven't understood anything I've said? Lol. You don't skip much with old professions while getting a level boost. What you do skip is off set by being able to go back to the old content while out leveling it. Even if you didn't use a level boost you would still need to spend extra time going back to content you've passed by. It is irrelevant and not an advantage to normal leveling.

    My example of gear is entirely relevant. Because it is how you are treating the boost since it isn't letting you get to relevant content. You also need to be level 60 in order to get into Mythics as well. Which is why skipping the time it takes to level is an advantage. It gets you to the newer content faster by providing a boost to player power. The gear example was brought up because Heroic isn't that relevant when Mythic is the best.

    Just like the arguments that a boost isn't relevant because it is only 50. Would you prefer I make the argument with buying Normal gear? Something must can easily get in Shadowlands since World Content caps out at about 200 item level?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #493
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    33,679
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Not at all. Come on man.
    Make up your mind, tree!

    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Most definitely.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  14. #494
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You realize moving the goalposts involves constantly shifting your point to prove that something fits?

    I've stuck with the fact that skipping the content is a disadvantage since the start. I haven't swayed or changed from that once. So maybe don't try to call fallacies if they're not even applicable? Kinda my point though, that you're not even trying to actually listen.

    On top of that, my response can just be "because IN YOUR OPINION, they spend less time playing, that's somehow an advantage?". So if you never play WoW, you truly won the most.
    Actually that might be true.

    Gold can be used to get boosts though. So yes, less gold can be considered a disadvantage.
    Just because gold CAN be used for raid boosts doesn't mean you NEED gold to experience a raid. That's utterly asinine. Just because you want to add extra requirements to what is or isn't an advantage doesn't change the fact that it is one. So yes, you are moving goalposts to avoid saying it's an advantage and calling it a disadvantage because of the way YOU play the game.

    Furthermore, older professions literally become obsolete when a new expansion comes out. So using professions as an example is utterly irrelevant.

  15. #495
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    This is why debating anything on here ultimately ends up as pointless though. You don't want to acknowledge the other side, you just want to be right.
    Maybe you find things ultimately end up as pointless because you routinely dismiss other people including using the laughable tactic of them having no right to respond to you. People listen and acknowledge what you say. They just don't agree with it. That isn't dishonesty. What is dishonest is hiding behind the same tactics you keep blaming everyone else for doing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I stated my case clearly, concisely and as thoroughly as I could. You're the one using boring semantic arguments to undermine the purpose of what I'm saying. We don't even fully disagree, you just want to put a stupid fucking asterisk next the word P2W to include level boosts. This is the dumbest form of arguing on the internet so I'm not going to entertain this any longer.
    It isn't semantics to say to keep feelings out of it. That is a concept you yourself wanted and asked others to do. I am not undermining the purpose of what you are saying lol. You are just using your feelings of what is and isn't pay to win to redefine the concept. I am not pushing an asterisk but saying to treat the concept with out feelings. Level boosts are buying power and paying to win.

    As I already said it is silly to make an issue out of it because that power isn't all that great. But it is still buying power if we are going to not let feelings redefine words. Which is why you won't entertain it any longer. You can't bully your way into being right when your own words are being used against you. Weird huh?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #496
    I am Murloc!
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Vineland, Cumberland, NJ, USA
    Posts
    5,309
    Quote Originally Posted by Imphrazel View Post
    Sorry if this is discussed anywhere else, could not find any Thread related to this.
    Also Sorry for my English, it´s not my 1st Language

    So I thought about my discussion following "New World" and the monetising System they want to add, by selling boosts and other convenient Items in addition to cosmetic Stuff. Most people claimed this would be p2w and I have to think about WoW in it´s current state and thinks you could buy by real Life Money.

    You can buy all these Mounts and other shiny stuff from the Ingame store, and that´s total OK for me, because you don´t push your Player power with these items.
    BUT, you can buy Character boosts. This is a bit tricky for me, because you buy some sort of Player power, but it doesn´t affect the Endgame, it´s just a Time Safe for these people, but it´s definitely something which is discussable.
    But the most annoying thing is definitely the WoW Token itself. You can buy WoW Gold with real Money and can use it to buy BoE Items, which is definitely an increase in Player Power, and so some kind of Pay to Win. And you can buy boosts for M+, Raids, PvP with these Gold. This is not only an increase in Player Power, it´s the pure definition for Pay to win! "You want this? Just pay me X Gold and you get it."

    I think WoW is going a dramatic way towards p2w, and this is not only Blizzards fault.
    Blizz did the Mistake in the first, to make it possible by adding the Token, just because they wanted to address illegal gold selling.
    The Only thing I can imagine at this point to address this, is to forbid boosts for Gold and remove boe items (in Raid quality) from the Game.

    What do you guys think? Is WoW really pay to win nowadays or am I just over interpreting something in this?

    Thanks for Reading
    Officially it isn't. But as others have said, you have a legitimate eat to convert real currency into gold. With that gold you can purchase carries for gear.

    Not exactly pay to win, because you have to have an iota of skill to beat content or pvp.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Maybe you find things ultimately end up as pointless because you routinely dismiss other people including using the laughable tactic of them having no right to respond to you. People listen and acknowledge what you say. They just don't agree with it. That isn't dishonesty. What is dishonest is hiding behind the same tactics you keep blaming everyone else for doing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It isn't semantics to say to keep feelings out of it. That is a concept you yourself wanted and asked others to do. I am not undermining the purpose of what you are saying lol. You are just using your feelings of what is and isn't pay to win to redefine the concept. I am not pushing an asterisk but saying to treat the concept with out feelings. Level boosts are buying power and paying to win.

    As I already said it is silly to make an issue out of it because that power isn't all that great. But it is still buying power if we are going to not let feelings redefine words. Which is why you won't entertain it any longer. You can't bully your way into being right when your own words are being used against you. Weird huh?
    "I'm not making a semantic I'm just {literally defines a semantic argument}."

    Yeah, you're not using my words against me. You're just making a shitty argument.

  18. #498
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    4,484
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    By that logic, pay to win doesn't exist. Because there are no games that let you pay money to completely win the game. And that's ACTUALLY asinine.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I have clearly explained why it's an advantage at least three times. Go back and actually read my posts instead of skimming.
    I don't know what you eat in the mornings to absolutely confound your own common sense like that, but I'd stop eating it, because that made absolutely no sense. Pay to win means paying to gain some sort of an advantage over other players.

    Fun fact: literally everyone who buys shadowlands at least heroic edition gets a free character boost. It's not a secret, and trudging through 14 years of content to hit max level to START THE GAME YOU JUST BOUGHT makes absolutely no sense. Boost aren't the devil. Show me on the doll where the boost hurt you. Fact: it didn't. You're just being silly.

    Paying to win is the equivalent to paying to get epic gear. Paying to get ahead of other players at a REGULAR PACE OF GAMEPLAY FOR THE CURRENT EXPANSION. Boosting - does nothing of the sort whatsoever. Please continue with your strawman and hyperbole bullshit.

    The ONLY thing a boost does is get you ready..to start shadowlands. You still have to quest, just like everyone else. The fuck cares if you hit 48 or 50 or whatever it makes you? You're not winning ANYTHING. You're getting ganked and 1 shot because your gear is so bad, and probably dying to more than 3 enemies at a time. Yeah, you're right bud. You win. Lol.

    Please enjoy my film SCHISM, a film festival winning short
    https://youtu.be/HjwQ8jBcoq8

  19. #499
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Guns View Post
    I don't know what you eat in the mornings to absolutely confound your own common sense like that, but I'd stop eating it, because that made absolutely no sense. Pay to win means paying to gain some sort of an advantage over other players.

    Fun fact: literally everyone who buys shadowlands at least heroic edition gets a free character boost. It's not a secret, and trudging through 14 years of content to hit max level to START THE GAME YOU JUST BOUGHT makes absolutely no sense. Boost aren't the devil. Show me on the doll where the boost hurt you. Fact: it didn't. You're just being silly.

    Paying to win is the equivalent to paying to get epic gear. Paying to get ahead of other players at a REGULAR PACE OF GAMEPLAY FOR THE CURRENT EXPANSION. Boosting - does nothing of the sort whatsoever. Please continue with your strawman and hyperbole bullshit.

    The ONLY thing a boost does is get you ready..to start shadowlands. You still have to quest, just like everyone else. The fuck cares if you hit 48 or 50 or whatever it makes you? You're not winning ANYTHING. You're getting ganked and 1 shot because your gear is so bad, and probably dying to more than 3 enemies at a time. Yeah, you're right bud. You win. Lol.
    So once again because you don't consider it to be an advantage that means it's not. Because your word is law. Ok.

  20. #500
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You ask what I'm smart enough to realize while also addressing it. You can still disenchant every quest item you get. You can still skin every beast you kill. The amount of materials you get from doing that while leveling 1 to 50 is minimal. If you are in chromie time you might get a good chunk to level one profession but only if you don't skip around. It is still far easier to out level the content and mass AoE pull and skin stuff.
    But you're ignoring the fact that without the boost, you can do...both.
    You can get points while leveling and fill out an expansion through Chromie time, and then also double back when you're max to do others.

    Doing both at once does help with the time sink of leveling professions.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So it does seem like intelligence plays a factor if you can't see how out leveling content would be better for leveling old professions. It is minimal because it is minimal. Leveling is fast but profession ranks do not follow the same curve. Both with and with out Chromie time.
    Remember when you tried to call me out on "arrogance" yet you keep talking about intelligence and being insulting now? Yeahhhhh. Attack the point, not the person maybe.


    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You haven't understood anything I've said? Lol. You don't skip much with old professions while getting a level boost. What you do skip is off set by being able to go back to the old content while out leveling it. Even if you didn't use a level boost you would still need to spend extra time going back to content you've passed by. It is irrelevant and not an advantage to normal leveling.

    My example of gear is entirely relevant. Because it is how you are treating the boost since it isn't letting you get to relevant content. You also need to be level 60 in order to get into Mythics as well. Which is why skipping the time it takes to level is an advantage. It gets you to the newer content faster by providing a boost to player power. The gear example was brought up because Heroic isn't that relevant when Mythic is the best.

    Just like the arguments that a boost isn't relevant because it is only 50. Would you prefer I make the argument with buying Normal gear? Something must can easily get in Shadowlands since World Content caps out at about 200 item level?
    Again, gear isn't relevant. You can keep repeating it as much as you want, but it isn't.

    The boost is for level 50. The level cap for BfA, an expansion that was out for over 2 years. The boost came out with the preorders for SLs, at the end of the expansion. So people were already level 50 for 2 years at that point, which makes the boost pay to catch up. You're set far behind the actual level 50s at that point in terms of gear even. And then when SLs hit, you're set to go right into it but let's be honest, you're also going to progress slower than most players would since the gear from the boost was not comparable to raid or mythic dungeon gear even, or hell even World Quest gear. You're at a disadvantage at that point even.


    Now, moving forward to right now, sure most people leveling are going to be in a similar ungeared point, because they didn't spend 2 years on the expansion. So a boost would help with that. But...that's where it ends. You spent money instead of time to push into Shadowlands.


    To compare that to buying gear is flat out dishonest because the gear is actually relevant to the current expansion, if you were to buy a set of gear. You could argue that the boost, when it came out was relevant to the expansion, which is fair. But it's also at the point where level 50 was the norm, leveling to 50 was faster than ever, and you were at a huge disadvantage in gear/essences. Being level 50 right now is currently considered "irrelevant".


    Also, side note, for the final nail in the coffin.

    I've said time and time again, skipping the content is a disadvantage. Your idea of "having to go back" either way can be true to a degree, yes, but you can level entirely in BfA content and have it all done in time.

    And guess what that unlocks? Allied races. Which need I point out that if you're alliance, dark iron dwarves are pretty strong. Mechagnomes too but that requires more once you're level 50 anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Just because gold CAN be used for raid boosts doesn't mean you NEED gold to experience a raid. That's utterly asinine. Just because you want to add extra requirements to what is or isn't an advantage doesn't change the fact that it is one. So yes, you are moving goalposts to avoid saying it's an advantage and calling it a disadvantage because of the way YOU play the game.

    Furthermore, older professions literally become obsolete when a new expansion comes out. So using professions as an example is utterly irrelevant.
    Except the legion fishing artifact is still the best fishing pole overall, so...not really irrelevant since fishing is important for feasts if you want to farm mats. And they're a great source of gold overall.

    Gear is an actual advantage. Being level 50 isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Maybe you find things ultimately end up as pointless because you routinely dismiss other people including using the laughable tactic of them having no right to respond to you. People listen and acknowledge what you say. They just don't agree with it. That isn't dishonesty. What is dishonest is hiding behind the same tactics you keep blaming everyone else for doing.
    Mate, you realize the lack of self awareness in this, right?

    You tried to subtly insult my intelligence, you jumped into a conversation just to shame me for "jumping into conversations", you're arguing with others semantics and then accuse them of semantics.

    Like, full blown just stop. Gaslighting isn't a way to argue. I've had plenty of reasonable discussions on these forums overall in the past. But ultimately when I'm telling you "hey, this is what you miss out on by boosting" and all you can do is pretend to laugh and dismiss it, while accusing me of dismissing other people's points after I already acknowledged the time aspect several times, like, no. You're just gaslighting at that point.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •