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  1. #521
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    There is difference if you as developer sopport selling tokens for real money to get gold to get boost and farming gold by yourself by playin game to get boost and buying gold from 3rd party website to get gold which isnt legal. Just becouse there was few players back in older game buying gold from farmers for real money then propably got banned few days later doesnt mean its same thing what we have now on retail.
    You make a point, and if by that point, we can date that WoW became P2W in October 2006, and not because of the token.
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  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    You pick an expansion to skip literally all the other ones.

    I don't get what you consider skipping content then honestly. It seems more like you're considering the time investment "content". But that doesn't mean the actual expansions aren't content
    You really can't possibly be this dense. Choosing what content to level in is NOT the same thing as paying money to not have to level in ANY of them except the newest content. You are literally skipping content by buying a level boost. That's why it's an advantage and why it's a form of p2w.

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    You really can't possibly be this dense. Choosing what content to level in is NOT the same thing as paying money to not have to level in ANY of them except the newest content. You are literally skipping content by buying a level boost. That's why it's an advantage and why it's a form of p2w.
    I pointed out how you're skipping content either way.
    Your form of skipping content seems to be "it has to be all or nothing".

    But if you pick to level in BfA, you're still skipping all the other expansions of content.
    That's why Chromie time was made, so people don't have to squeeze through every expansion to get to 50.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I pointed out how you're skipping content either way.
    Your form of skipping content seems to be "it has to be all or nothing".

    But if you pick to level in BfA, you're still skipping all the other expansions of content.
    That's why Chromie time was made, so people don't have to squeeze through every expansion to get to 50.
    Your form of skipping content isn't truly skipping content. It's just choosing a different leveling path. Paying for a boost is ACTUALLY skipping content. You don't still have to level with the boost like you do when choosing Chromie time. you're purposely being obtuse.

  5. #525
    Epic! Oakshana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I pointed out how you're skipping content either way.
    Your form of skipping content seems to be "it has to be all or nothing".

    But if you pick to level in BfA, you're still skipping all the other expansions of content.
    That's why Chromie time was made, so people don't have to squeeze through every expansion to get to 50.
    Chromie time was made to simplify the leveling process, since they compressed the necessary level for endgame from 120 to 60, and you already didn't need to spend time in more than one or two zones per expansion content to outlevel it. They didn't make Chromie time for the effect of skipping content, they did it to make your leveling experience from 1 to 50 a more cohesive story while you leveled.

    Seriously, when 120 was still level cap, as soon as you hit 80, you did MAYBE Hyjal and a part of one other zone before you hit 85 and then moved to Pandaria. Where you then hit the cap for that content shortly into the Valley of the Four Winds, before moving on to WoD. How you think Chromie time is skipping content any more than we technically already were is mind boggling to say the least.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    So because you declared that skipping 50 levels worth of content isn't an advantage, that makes it so. Just stop. Just because YOU think it's minor doesn't make it minor. I've played the game since Wrath and even I think skipping 50 levels worth of content is pretty fucking significant. You are paying for an advantage over players who will be spending hours to level through that content because they didn't buy the boost.

    Just stop.
    And you claiming the opposite does? No, of course it doesn't. Don't project your own failings so hard.

    Besides, that's not the argument why it isn't an advantage. That would be that the boost doesn't actually get you ahead. Even boosted, the character is still inferior. You're not getting an advantage over others, because it's trivial for others to be better than your boosted char.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Your form of skipping content isn't truly skipping content. It's just choosing a different leveling path. Paying for a boost is ACTUALLY skipping content. You don't still have to level with the boost like you do when choosing Chromie time. you're purposely being obtuse.
    You're still skipping every other expansion. Skipping is skipping, it doesn't matter why. You really shouldn't call others obtuse what with your constant reliance on it.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And you claiming the opposite does? No, of course it doesn't. Don't project your own failings so hard.

    Besides, that's not the argument why it isn't an advantage. That would be that the boost doesn't actually get you ahead. Even boosted, the character is still inferior. You're not getting an advantage over others, because it's trivial for others to be better than your boosted char.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You're still skipping every other expansion. Skipping is skipping, it doesn't matter why. You really shouldn't call others obtuse what with your constant reliance on it.
    Lmfao the character is NOT inferior. You are also being purposely obtuse. You're incapable of admitting you're wrong so you just say asinine comments like this. You pay $60 and are moved to the level needed to get into new content, AND you're given gear, AND you're given several inventory bags. Ya know....things other people need to grind for and need to pay gold for.

    I'm not being obtuse. Character boosts is actively skipping EVERYTHING up until a certain point. Whereas choosing your expansion isn't skipping. It's just giving you an option of where you want to level. You still have to put time into leveling, something the person who bought the character boost doesn't need to do. Don't accuse others of being obtuse then proceed to actively be obtuse in the same post.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Lmfao the character is NOT inferior. You are also being purposely obtuse. You're incapable of admitting you're wrong so you just say asinine comments like this. You pay $60 and are moved to the level needed to get into new content, AND you're given gear, AND you're given several inventory bags. Ya know....things other people need to grind for and need to pay gold for.
    Things other people have had for months, you mean. That's your problem here; you're introducing unspoken limits that render your claims meaningless when removed by implicitly only comparing to a new character. But your competition isn't just new characters. Most of it is already existing characters that have all of that stuff, usually way better than the crappy boosted gear. You don't really need to grind for any of that, either. Better than boosted gear is handed out like candy by the game.

    And of course choosing the expansion is skipping. You're skipping all other expansions.

    None of your arguments work when compared to the real world because you keep focusing on your cherry picked sharply limited scenarios where you're right, but those aren't the only ones that matter.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Things other people have had for months, you mean. That's your problem here; you're introducing unspoken limits that render your claims meaningless when removed by implicitly only comparing to a new character. But your competition isn't just new characters. Most of it is already existing characters that have all of that stuff, usually way better than the crappy boosted gear. You don't really need to grind for any of that, either. Better than boosted gear is handed out like candy by the game.

    And of course choosing the expansion is skipping. You're skipping all other expansions.

    None of your arguments work when compared to the real world because you keep focusing on your cherry picked sharply limited scenarios where you're right, but those aren't the only ones that matter.
    It's not fucking skipping because you still have to level. You're just opting to level somewhere else. That's as asinine as saying dungeon leveling is the same as paying for a boost because you're "skipping" content. You seem to be leaving out the key factor: YOU STILL HAVE TO FUCKING LEVEL. Meanwhile, people who spend $60 get to skip all that leveling.

    My arguments only don't work if you refuse to use logic. So you just keep doing mental gymnastics because the alternative is actually admitting you're wrong for once.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Saying not to change words based on feelings is semantics? Weird how you both think that is wrong despite doing it early and is not something you said. Lol.
    No, I said that WoW isn't P2W. I followed that up with clarifications about why I think it isn't P2W. You interjected with a tangent about how levels are "player power" so therefore it's like, you know, "kinda P2W" to which I told you not to do because including the irrelevant player power gained through a level boost in the definition of P2W makes it more difficult to discern whether somebody is making a 0 IQ statement when they say "WoW is P2W" if, you know, they're using your silly definition. It just makes things messy for internet discussions. You've since quoted me five times with "WELL ACKTSHUALLY" nonsense about how you feel like your definition is correct because of some ridiculous contingency and I'm just being stubborn for refusing to concede something I said I wouldn't do at the beginning of this discussion. You and I don't even fully disagree, I simply would prefer if level boosts were not to be considered a form of P2W because it further detracts from discussion about actual P2W policies. Your point is valid but it one of semantics. This whole paragraph is semantics. And I fucking hate it. So please do not respond to this post because I won't bother continuing this discussion further.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    So please do not respond to this post because I won't bother continuing this discussion further.
    You have said that several times already and you keep indicating you want to discuss more by responding. If it makes it more difficult to discern an argument about buying power then it clearly is not semantics and is relavant to the definition of player power. You keep trying to define it by feelings by insult, calling things 0 IQ, and everything else but the kitchen sink.

    If we keep feelings out of it then a level boost is buying power which is what "Pay to win" means. It doesn't mean buying relevant power. Otherwise selling of Mythic raid gear once hall of fame has been cleared would be acceptable and not pay to win. You got triggered when your own argument to another was used against you. And instead of saying "My bad I did use feelings to redefine a word" you keep ranting like a bad information. Just when we think you done you pop out of the interweb to shout "But wait there is more!".

    If we don't fully disagree by your own words why do you keep trying to tell me that I am wrong? You keep point out a lot of issues with yourself including an impulse one if the only way you can stop responding is if another person stops for you.
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  12. #532
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Make up your mind, tree!
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Not at all. Come on man.
    *giggle* The tree is right.

    You summed this thread with those two post of yours, bravo

  13. #533
    Yet again, just like the casual vs hardcore garbage, the issue here isnt whether wow is P2W or not, but rather what the definition of P2W actually is in this context. And THAT is the problem - because just like the casual vs hardcore crap, it is subjective. There is no doubt a very rigid definition somewhere on the interwebs about what P2W actually means, but ill throw a few definitions down that i have seen from different people:

    - using real money to purchase something that gives you an advantage over others in game
    - using real money to purchase something that is not obtainable by regular play
    - using real money to purchase something that reduces the time to complete a task - rep boosts, xp boosts, lvl boosts
    - using real money to purchase something that directly increases a max level characters power - buying gear
    - using real money to purchase something that allows the player to entirely skip certain aspects of the game

    Those all seem quite similar, but the differences are important. They are important because they tie in to a players perception of what "winning" actually is, or what an "advantage" actually is. Based on a players motivation in game, they may consider something P2W, while someone with entirely different motivations in game thinks its not. For someone who plays wow only to collect mounts - thats their main or only goal in game, offering up mounts on the store that can only be purchased through the store might be considered P2W. For someone whos only focus is raiding, they may or may not give a shit at all.

    What it boils down to is there are far too many variables involved to definitively say one way or the other if a game is P2W, and that is especially true in a diverse game like wow, with an even more diverse player base with varied motivations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    There is difference if you as developer sopport selling tokens for real money to get gold to get boost and farming gold by yourself by playin game to get boost and buying gold from 3rd party website to get gold which isnt legal. Just becouse there was few players back in older game buying gold from farmers for real money then propably got banned few days later doesnt mean its same thing what we have now on retail.
    "few players" my ass, there was so many players buying and selling gold that blizzard rather introduced token than ban all of them...
    and please, stop using words legal/ilegal, it was 100% legal, it was against rules of the game, if you check how people use bugs you can see how much they care about TOS...

    hell my old guild was selling gold/boosts/items since vanila for over a decade, never any of us nor any of our customers get baned, thats bcs blizzard didnt realy have problem with people selling/buying shite even though its against TOS, they mostly only had issues with people runing scams and shady websited, phishing and shit like that...

    and sure, its different HOWEVER, it was 100% possible to get boost or buy items/gold since vanila, and even back then people were buying all that shite from other players not from blizzard - like they do now - what changed is now blizzard gets a cut, thats it...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2021-06-03 at 09:38 PM.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    It's not fucking skipping because you still have to level. You're just opting to level somewhere else. That's as asinine as saying dungeon leveling is the same as paying for a boost because you're "skipping" content. You seem to be leaving out the key factor: YOU STILL HAVE TO FUCKING LEVEL. Meanwhile, people who spend $60 get to skip all that leveling.

    My arguments only don't work if you refuse to use logic. So you just keep doing mental gymnastics because the alternative is actually admitting you're wrong for once.
    It's still skipping something. That it isn't skipping leveling in particular doesn't change that it is still skipping.

    You really shouldn't call out others for being unable to admit they're wrong when you keep tying yourself in a knot trying to avoid it yourself.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's still skipping something. That it isn't skipping leveling in particular doesn't change that it is still skipping.

    You really shouldn't call out others for being unable to admit they're wrong when you keep tying yourself in a knot trying to avoid it yourself.
    I haven't tied myself into fucking anything. It's not the same as ACTUALLY skipping huge portions of content and time investment by dropping $60. Comparing choosing what expansion to level in with the paid character boost is beyond idiotic.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If we don't fully disagree by your own words why do you keep trying to tell me that I am wrong? You keep point out a lot of issues with yourself including an impulse one if the only way you can stop responding is if another person stops for you.
    Man, what the fuck is this? I can either not respond and you smugly walk away thinking you defeated me with facts and logic or I respond to your question and you say "haha u said u weren't responding but u responded, GOTTEM"

    There's no winning semantic arguments. Just like there's no winning when you pay to WoW.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Paying for heroes who are part of Meta or new heroes that are freshly released who might be OP sure is more P2W than anything WoW has.
    If you are new and don't shell out money for heroes you have to be lucky on free rotations and/or chests you get. I recently started playing and I got some heroes but it's not exactly going quickly. If I shell out money though I get all heroes I need.
    Your point is very interesting, because I never understood why somebody would pay money for champions, when they are given to you for free teally, really fast.
    My original argument stays true tho, if you are new, buying a meta champ will bot boost your winrate. Buying better items in WoW will.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    White knights will soon chime in with "you don't win anything by buying tokens", but that's only if you assume that you can't "win" (in a traditional sense) in an MMO. But by that logic, nothing could ever possibly be P2W, not even selling full mythic sets in the store, since you don't win anything by buying a full mythic set

    But if we count skipping tedious grinds and/or having instant access to the best gear in the game, as well as the most prestigious titles in the current season as "winning", then WoW is definitely P2W, even if not as blatantly as other games.
    Winning over who, exactly?

    If you buy a boost, then someone else has already not only cleared the content, but mastered it to the extent to which it is so trivial to them they can literally carry other people. You are certainly not winning over these people.

    Is it really winning if you're still behind everyone else who cared enough to try? Is it the shortcut you consider winning? They win because they spend less time playing the game?

    No, you don't win anything. You lose because you spend money on things nobody cares about whether you have or not. The people who sell the boosts just wins twice.

  20. #540
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What it boils down to is there are far too many variables involved to definitively say one way or the other if a game is P2W, and that is especially true in a diverse game like wow, with an even more diverse player base with varied motivations.
    Many variables have been crossed between in the arguments and statements, and just as you say, due to the topic, some variables are being scuffed off or replaced by others.


    Oh, and according to the thread, you apparently missed "- using real money to purchase something that allows the player to sell an item to gain currency".
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