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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    back then you could atleast somewhat put it as a reasonable goal to save up for those mounts. I dont think most people hoard gold and have millions laying around. I remember the expensive mounts over the years and all of them were at high prices, but 5 millions is insane and way out of order. But players accept it for some reason. It got that price for 1 reason only and that is the token.

    I have never really hoarded gold at all, but I have always had what I needed for everything. I would at times save up if I wanted certain mounts/items, but 5 millions is crazy. Dont tell me everyone who got that mount actually farmed for it.
    To be fair here while I do think the token is p2w the price of the brutosaur is not 5m because of the token. It is like that because of the permanent shit damage that the garrison did in WoD that fucked the economy for a long time to come. The token does not generate gold that does not already exist. These mounts were put in as an attempt by Blizzard to reduce the massive amounts of gold that players were hoarding by dumping the gold on these mounts and then nerfing the garrison.
    The token damages the economy in other ways however for the average player. The massive amounts of gold hoarded by rich players are now being distributed among players without so much gold while rich players are still controlling the market, thus making the average price for everything go much higher as gold is more accessible and it starts losing its value. Players that are new to the game and do not buy tokens to sell for gold have a much harder time accumulating the basic gold needs in this inflated market through legitimate means.

    Last point about p2w and the game being p2w since 2006. While this point holds some merit you have to at least realize how different it is for the game to be p2w unintentionally by practices that the company not only did not support but actively tried to combat (and failed) versus the company now being the ones engaging in said practices and making it legal.
    While people did buy gold before from 3rd parties, it was overall way less frequent than it is now and while boosts existed the demand was also not as high. With gold buying being legal now there is a lot more people buying gold and boosting has skyrocketing.
    An easy but anecdotal way to see this is to compare how the trade chat has evolved since the introduction of the token. Nowdays the tradechat in populated servers is 99% boost spammers that you need to use an addon to filter out which most people do not do. Boosts get advertised so much and so often that the chat scrolls faster than a popular streamer's twitch chat. Previously trade chat was used for selling items cheaper than AH, guild recruiting and finding pugs for content outside of LFD/LFR.

    While WoW might have always had ways of being p2w it was never endorsed by blizzard until the introduction of the token and to a lesser extent level boosts. And this is where the difference lies.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Technically, you are not buying gold, though.

    And if that is all the requirements, then it was P2W since the start.
    Please please PLEASE dont go into technicalities. What is the purpose of the token if not to buy gold then? There is no other purpose as it is not worth buying a token to use it for game time with real money since it is the same or even more expensive than buying a sub or a card at a retailer.

    The current p2w model has changed significantly from the past. Games that directly made you a god by buying things all died because the average player could not keep up with it. So the p2w model has shifted toward the mobile market trend of paying to be a zoomer (aka save time). They cleverly mask p2w schemes by making power gains indirect through their means because they know there will be people defending these practices while nobody would be defending direct gear purchases.
    *insert think Mark meme template*
    Last edited by Delever; 2021-06-04 at 09:40 AM.

  2. #682
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Please please PLEASE dont go into technicalities. What is the purpose of the token if not to buy gold then? There is no other purpose as it is not worth buying a token to use it for game time with real money since it is the same or even more expensive than buying a sub or a card at a retailer.
    The token is there to provide a secondary method of game-time as well as give people the option to earn gold from it.

    Some people either are unable to afford the game-time with real money, unable to buy game-time with real money, or have enough gold that they just wish to save the real money. Believe it or not, that is the purpose of the token.

    And before the token was there, you could use TCG to almost the same extent. Sell rare items purchased for real money to earn gold.

    If people are so sure that the token is P2W, then the TCG items are as well, which just changes the overview of the game to have been P2W since October 2006, instead of since the token came in 6.1.2 (if I recall).

    TCG was just an exclusive club of P2W compared to P2W now, where everyone can have it, before, you had to be lucky in real life to score big in-game.

    I have my own view of what P2W is, others have theirs, but I enjoy looking into the overall facts as well.
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  3. #683
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    It is tho, especially in a game which doesn't have a clear-cut end goal that everyone shares, if someone cares more about looks then for them getting cosmetics that they cant get without paying in some form is p2w.
    I dare you name a game you think is NOT pay to win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by Malania View Post
    lol was about to ask them to take it t the bedroom.
    It's made more sad by the fact one of the ones acting like this is a mod...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    I dare you name a game you think is NOT pay to win.
    Pong.

  5. #685
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    Pong.
    Not surprised at all that you came up with something like that, but guess what?
    I offer boost service to this game, so you can actually beat it completely with money if you let me play, so you know.... its kinda.... pay to win :/
    I also offer customization to the paddles, but only with real money so... its kinda.... pay to win :/
    And in the end, you had to buy this game with real money so that also makes it kinda.... pay to win :/
    Greedy fucks, nothing seems to be free when you take a certain viewpoint
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Not surprised at all that you came up with something like that, but guess what?
    I offer boost service to this game, so you can actually beat it completely with money if you let me play, so you know.... its kinda.... pay to win :/
    I also offer customization to the paddles, but only with real money so... its kinda.... pay to win :/
    And in the end, you had to buy this game with real money so that also makes it kinda.... pay to win :/
    Greedy fucks, nothing seems to be free when you take a certain viewpoint
    So, ignoring the blatant ignorance of this post...
    a) Not sure what you mean by "not surprised" seeing as I'm not the person you were arguing with to begin with.
    b) Cosmetics are not pay to win.
    c) Needing to buy a game is not pay to win.

    Feel free to try and make up your own definitions of pay to win- all the while trying to argue random, irrelevant semantics over said definitions- though. That certainly won't make you seem more ridiculous.

    PS. You said to name a game that isn't currently pay to win, which I did. Not to name one that couldn't be made pay to win (even though your current 'ideas' don't actually do that).

  7. #687
    yes it is
    anything you can buy with gold you can buy with money

  8. #688
    What are you winning. Time savings? And yes this topic has come up multiple times and always ends the same. The only people complaining about tokens are the ones that can’t afford them. If Blizzard released the names of people buying them you would be shocked, and most would be from people that shame the idea on forums.

    If they took it away, people would again be complaining about gold sellers and mass amounts of bots. There is no perfect solution, but the one in place currently is working.

    Watch what you wish for, you just might get it.

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  9. #689
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    Quote Originally Posted by loadedaxe View Post
    What are you winning. Time savings? And yes this topic has come up multiple times and always ends the same. The only people complaining about tokens are the ones that can’t afford them. If Blizzard released the names of people buying them you would be shocked, and most would be from people that shame the idea on forums.

    If they took it away, people would again be complaining about gold sellers and mass amounts of bots. There is no perfect solution, but the one in place currently is working.

    Watch what you wish for, you just might get it.
    I like tokens. It allows people to give me gold that I can then use to buy tokens, tokens that they're selling to buy boosts from me

  10. #690
    At this point its hard for me to say no.

    By extension or by design. Its really hard for Blizzard to stop it even if they wanted.

    I'd say the direct line atm is:

    Buy Token with money => Get gold from token => Pay for various ingame boosts

    The only thing blizzard can do is remove the token, but since this just leads to more people buying gold off of illegal websites its hardly going to change anything.

    Stopping people from selling boosts to various endgame content is virtually impossible

    Blizzard choosing to sell the token is probably why id call it pay to win though. If people had to buy the token illegally to pay for the boosts or farm the gold ingame or something - at least Blizzard wouldnt by extension support it - so that would mean it wasnt pay 2 win but just player controlled bad behavior
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2021-06-04 at 10:55 AM.

  11. #691
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    So, ignoring the blatant ignorance of this post...
    a) Not sure what you mean by "not surprised" seeing as I'm not the person you were arguing with to begin with.
    b) Cosmetics are not pay to win.
    c) Needing to buy a game is not pay to win.

    Feel free to try and make up your own definitions of pay to win- all the while trying to argue random, irrelevant semantics over said definitions- though. That certainly won't make you seem more ridiculous.

    PS. You said to name a game that isn't currently pay to win, which I did. Not to name one that couldn't be made pay to win (even though your current 'ideas' don't actually do that).
    A) So why argue then? I’m 99% sure you quoted me, and I replied. Coming up with some ridiculed shit like pong, and that is not ”arguing irrelevant semantics”? Well you said it, and I replied, like promised, which is why I said ”I dare you”.
    B) Aren’t they though? But I, as a special snowflake feel that they sure are, as I, as a special snowflake only play for cosmetics, and they sure are my grain of salt.
    C) But the game is free now isn’t it? It wasn’t free 50 years ago so in order to win, I needed to pay.

    My own definitions for pay to win are quite simple. You have to pay, to win.
    For example, unlocking talents with in-game-currency which you only get by using real life currency.
    Or
    Unlocking a ”hero” which has a gamebreaking skill let’s say a disable, but only if you use real life currency, the free ”heroes” only pop up flowers which do not disable opposing heroes.
    I’m sure these examples were not needed, but better to make sure incase another pong-alike reply comes up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  12. #692
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    So, looking over, we have a list of...

    WoW has always been indirectly P2W if we count the illegal abilities to complete content or gain gold.

    WoW has been exclusive P2W since October 2006 as TCG items demanded gambling and money to get, and sold for a high amount of money, or gold.

    WoW has been turned P2W for everyone in WoD (6.1.2 (If I recall right (token))).

    WoW is P2W because you can purchase a boost to save time.

    WoW is P2W because you can get gold from other players by selling items purchased with real money (Indirect with TCG/Token).

    WoW is P2W because you can purchase mounts, pets, and cosmetics.

    WoW does currently not offer the sales of power.

    WoW does currently not offer the sales of currency.

    WoW does currently not offer shortcuts through current content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    The only thing blizzard can do is remove the token, but since this just leads to more people buying gold off of illegal websites its hardly going to change anything.
    Even without the token, WoW would still be P2W because you can earn gold by selling TCG items in WoW too.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    So, looking over, we have a list of...

    WoW has always been indirectly P2W if we count the illegal abilities to complete content or gain gold.

    WoW has been exclusive P2W since October 2006 as TCG items demanded gambling and money to get, and sold for a high amount of money, or gold.

    WoW has been turned P2W for everyone in WoD (6.1.2 (If I recall right (token))).

    WoW is P2W because you can purchase a boost to save time.

    WoW is P2W because you can get gold from other players by selling items purchased with real money (Indirect with TCG/Token).

    WoW is P2W because you can purchase mounts, pets, and cosmetics.

    WoW does currently not offer the sales of power.

    WoW does currently not offer the sales of currency.

    WoW does currently not offer shortcuts through current content.
    The bolded sentences can be dismissed tbh. The rest if probably subjective.

    You could argue the pets/mounts one but the purchasable mounts, pets and cosmetics arent end game stuff so you arent winning anything. Everyone who sees you using those cosmetics kow they are bought as opposed to buying boosts

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    B) Aren’t they though? But I, as a special snowflake feel that they sure are, as I, as a special snowflake only play for cosmetics, and they sure are my grain of salt.
    Oh I see, you're trolling. Carry on, then.

    My bad for thinking someone actually wanted to discuss something.

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    SNIP

    - - - Updated - - -



    Even without the token, WoW would still be P2W because you can earn gold by selling TCG items in WoW too.
    Thats a good argument. Since the selling of TCG items arent supported by wow - they are handled externally - i disagree with it. But i can see the argument

  16. #696
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    The bolded sentences can be dismissed tbh. The rest if probably subjective.

    You could argue the pets/mounts one but the purchasable mounts, pets and cosmetics arent end game stuff so you arent winning anything. Everyone who sees you using those cosmetics kow they are bought as opposed to buying boosts
    It was included because winning is subjective to the game. Some collect and believe that the most achievement points are winning.

    As the two last lines, they should still stay as they are factually true.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Thats a good argument. Since the selling of TCG items arent supported by wow - they are handled externally - i disagree with it. But i can see the argument
    Well, the sales of TCG items are now not supported by Blizzard but they were items of production approved, commissioned, and sold by Blizzard, so they are still a legal product you may buy for real money and sell for gold in-game.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    It was included because winning is subjective to the game. Some collect and believe that the most achievement points are winning.

    As the two last lines, they should still stay as they are factually true.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well, the sales of TCG items are now not supported by Blizzard but they were items of production approved, commissioned, and sold by Blizzard, so they are still a legal product you may buy for real money and sell for gold in-game.
    Completely agree yeah. But since its handled outside the game and thus not directly supported i look at it differently. Its a matter of perspective in my opinion.

    Blizzard didnt make the TCG items for people to sell - that was a sideeffect.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    It was included because winning is subjective to the game. Some collect and believe that the most achievement points are winning.

    As the two last lines, they should still stay as they are factually true.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well, the sales of TCG items are now not supported by Blizzard but they were items of production approved, commissioned, and sold by Blizzard, so they are still a legal product you may buy for real money and sell for gold in-game.
    Which is a practice that is not legally allowed. Selling store mounts for gold is also possible but it is bannable.
    While the end result is the same there is a clear cut difference between the action being endorsed by the company or just a loophole that is inevitable due to player greed and other means of trading.
    To add on to that, these illegal practices (buying gold from bots and selling TCG/store mounts for gold) did not occur as commonly as the official way of buying gold through the token. Therefore, even though the end result was the same, the frequency at which it happened was not. And it was also reassuring that it was not endorsed by blizzard.

  19. #699
    Yes and no.

    On one side you can pay to finish the game raid/story/gear wise.

    On the other hand people who do it this way will always have to pay their way. They will never be able to clear mythic/rank high in PvP/clear high M+ Keys without paying someone to carry them.

    Every person who can will never pay their way to the top as getting a full set of gear is laughable easy in wow and paying RL money for it is stupid. Unless you are in the WFR. Because well... these earlie items give you an edge. But their own fault. No one forces them to participate in it.

    So. Winning no. Finishing... maybe. Also strawman: I never met one single person who bought themselves a full set of max lvl gear via boosts...

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    Maybe I'm nitpicking here but WoW token and boost are more like pay to advance. Skip playtime but you don't really "win" the game. If you had a token in store which could be used to let's say insta kill 1 raid boss per raid THAT would be pay to WIN. Just an example.

    But it is really about what is winning in WoW anyways?
    when play time is the limiting factor of your characters power, then what? look at TBC with the boost, hardcore players are feeling forced to abandon their high warlord mains, and just buy a boost, this way they can play the best race for their class for TBC. I mean, in my opinion mounts etc is Pay to win, because the game USED to be revolved around mounts a lot. they showed off your characters achievements etc. I dont collect mounts, I dont collect transmogs, I pvp, I raid, I do m+. and that is it, and even I think its bullshit mount collecters have pay 2 win options in their wow gameplay of choice. the wow token has made it so I havent paid sub on 2-3 accounts since its release. it favors me hugely since I dont really want to get into selling gold. and I still hate them, Yes ppl would just buy gold instead, but atleast some of them used to get banned then.

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