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  1. #701
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Completely agree yeah. But since its handled outside the game and thus not directly supported i look at it differently. Its a matter of perspective in my opinion.

    Blizzard didnt make the TCG items for people to sell - that was a sideeffect.
    They made them as collectibles, so they would've known that there was a chance of them being sold on. And they made them purposely able to be traded in-game (most of them, a few couldn't, for some reason). The TCG was an exclusive product that people stockpiled and recirculated many times, collecting earnings of gold on them.

    I mean, TCG is actually one step worse than tokens, for you needed to indulge yourself in gambling to gain the items in the real world from vendors who did not hold much faith in the TCG, and this didn't buy too many in stock, but in the end, it all leads to a massive earning for some - either reselling for real money, or for gold.

    I know they are discontinued but we also know that there is a lot of cards out on the market, scratched, and we have seen in some communities that they have TCG items stockpiled to make a good earning of gold on the auction.

    And if we look at the token, due to it being digital, and if they were to discontinue them, you would most likely have a deadline to use your tokens that you have stockpiled - unlike TCG.

    Both items to be sold by Blizzard for real money, to serve as a product for you to trade, to earn gold.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Which is a practice that is not legally allowed. Selling store mounts for gold is also possible but it is bannable.
    While the end result is the same there is a clear cut difference between the action being endorsed by the company or just a loophole that is inevitable due to player greed and other means of trading.
    To add on to that, these illegal practices (buying gold from bots and selling TCG/store mounts for gold) did not occur as commonly as the official way of buying gold through the token. Therefore, even though the end result was the same, the frequency at which it happened was not. And it was also reassuring that it was not endorsed by blizzard.
    The sale of TCG loot (the BoE ones) is actually legally permitted for gold or real money.
    (Edit: added the specification of the TCG cards having to be the actual BoE loot)

    As for sales of store mounts for gold, if you do not convert the gold to battle.net currency to purchase it yourself, then yes, that is bannable if purchased from another person. Not the same as TCG.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2021-06-04 at 11:29 AM.
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  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    PvE is same competition as school grades - sure you aint breaking anyone's nose but your ranking is still competitive. Casuals buy boosts to rank higher so they get easier invites to groups and the top guilds get as much gold for gearing faster and go even into debt to buy advantages. Its identical to doping in sports. If you want to win you cant avoid buying advantages because the rest also do it.

    For pvp the bigger issue is that the carries play vs regular people and destroy their fun with onesided slaughter. Its killing pvp itself when people smurf among noobs to make gold.
    That's just complaining over how Tiffany's dress is prettier than yours - sure, it may be so but any adult can see that it is of no cobsequential difference and does not actually affect you aversely beyond what you do to yourself.

    Indeed it's PvP where the real issues are at when it comes to P2Win, as it simply discourages people from bothering with it at all. Unsurprisingly, unfair games quickly start losing their reasons for existence.
    This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
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  3. #703
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    Oh I see, you're trolling. Carry on, then.

    My bad for thinking someone actually wanted to discuss something.
    Ah the good old trolling strawman, what a time to be alive!
    Let's see here, where as I originally asked to be presented a game, so I could debunk the pay to win aspect, you could have discussed but decided to go with "pong."
    Yes, I sure was the troll there.
    Nevertheless, I quoted your pong, and presented you with things that could easily(especially in mmo-c) be seen as pay to win.(as everything is, and can be seen subjective, everything can be anything because personal opinion has the same value as facts)
    Yes, I'm the troll here. Definitely.
    But by looking at your posts, I see we are on the same page, neither of us thinks wow is pay to win, yet here we are arguing, just for the sakes of arguing.
    And I'm trolling? gtfo
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Ah the good old trolling strawman, what a time to be alive!
    Pointing out trolling as trolling, is not strawmanning.

    Feel free to continue trolling, though. Don't let me get in your way. I'm sure it's more interesting than half the drivel these people are posting, if nothing else.

  5. #705
    Remember that time Scrype paid 7000$ for gold to get BoE's to lose the world first race to a group that didn't do so? Pepperidge Farms remembers. Blizzard didn't even ban him!

  6. #706
    It depends how you define your "win criteria". For a lot of people getting CE and KSM is equal to winning WoW. So in that regards WoW is pay to win.

  7. #707
    Yes it's gone full p2w, as an option now. But in pve I don't care that much, cause it doesn't really ruin it for me. Sure you could get a booster in your group, but I go by number of 15's runs, and if its only 10, I'm not inviting. They can't do anything with their gear anyway.

    PvP is absolute dogshit now with boosters. Only a true shill or seller could defend blizzard for that crap

  8. #708
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    and what happened to all those games? they died
    The current model of P2W games on phones is best accurate to describe pay to skip or save time, all p2w games use money to save/skip time, but nothing in any game isn't available for all players, the free player just spend 1502 hour more to get it
    The model of literally put best items behind money and u can get it only with money is dead since years, now u get it by spend cash now or spend hours farming or wait for long cds
    And p2w isn't pay to get the best possible, any advantage is p2w
    And since u 'remember', do u also 'remember' when games were pay its price get full game?
    There's still several out there last I checked, but quite a few do have shorter lifespans due to the nature of them yes.

    But I have to disagree on the P2W description, if you're using phone games as an example too. Take Fire Emblem Heroes for example. There's certain mechanics you can only use if you pay a monthly sub cost, along with certain heroes you can only get if you do also. There's no way for a free player to get around that.

    The smarter games would shift to making it a time sink, but that doesn't mean all of them are like that. But at the end of the day, P2W has always been about "The best". You're paying to win, it's the phrase itself. It's harder to translate that to something like WoW though.


    And I'm not quite sure what the game price has to do with WoW, but I'm also not going to agree with the idea that DLC caused some horrible shift in games. It's pretty overblown in my opinion, and there's not many games that genuinely cut the game in half just to sell it as DLC. Although I am still rather mad over Asura's Wrath putting the actual end of the game behind DLC.

  9. #709
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    It depends how you define your "win criteria". For a lot of people getting CE and KSM is equal to winning WoW. So in that regards WoW is pay to win.
    No.
    This is not a question of opinion. It's simply pay to win, or not pay and win. There is absolutely no inbetween.
    Nothing, and I mean nothing stops you from getting CE and KSM by paying your sub, and simply just doing stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    Yes it's gone full p2w, as an option now. But in pve I don't care that much, cause it doesn't really ruin it for me. Sure you could get a booster in your group, but I go by number of 15's runs, and if its only 10, I'm not inviting. They can't do anything with their gear anyway.

    PvP is absolute dogshit now with boosters. Only a true shill or seller could defend blizzard for that crap
    How do you pay to win exactly? If a player offers you boosts, it's not pay to win. It's pay to get boosted, and last time I checked, there is no service on blizzard's store where you can select your glad gear, mounts and titles and cash out, log into game and find these things in your mailbox.
    Pay to win, means you have to pay money in order to succeed. You think the real gladiators, who now boost people, bought their gladiators? No, they played and they won.
    Sure the game now revolves around boosting, but that's the playerbase. And still, you can do all the stuff the boosters sell, without buying the boost by just doing these things yourself.
    Sure, you can buy gold with money now, which you could do always. Why would you think blizzard wants to watch goldsellers to flourish when they can do it themselves?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    But I will point out you mistook me for someone else, and instead of even trying to apologize for that you just proceeded to basically dismiss it as "You're just as bad of a person as them anyway!".
    I've pointed out far more then Nyalotha as an insult. Also did you need read the part where I said my bad? What more do you want in an apology? Flowers? Candy? A Billboard? Seriously. You act so high and might. Sling insults like crazy. Accuse me of mocking, insulting everyone else when the only person I've took that tone with is you after you insulted my earlier several times. Including gate keeping who can respond to your posts. While even jumping in later with out follow your own rules. Seriously dud what is your problem?


    You don't have to if you're not WF, no.
    See. That is all you had to say from the start. You literally spend hours raging about me with every clever insult you could think of. Every little tangent about corrupt, experience, stats and what not. All for you to agree with the very thing I said. Thanks for the laugh in the morning.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #711
    Quote Originally Posted by Khasim92 View Post
    If you define P2W as 'spending RL money on WoW can give you an advantage over some people who don't spend RL money on WoW' then yes, WoW is P2W.
    If you define P2W as 'all people who spend RL money on WoW have an advantage over all people who don't' then no, WoW is not P2W.
    This is the most accurate answer to this question: You CAN get ahead of little Timmy who plays without money by buying gold and buy items with the gold, but you can't get in the Leaderboards like Sven who plays hardcore this game and is in one of the top Progress Guilds.

    Except you buy a professional WoW Progress Guild and pay them to play for and with you. But this could probably be done on every game, so every game is P2W.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The smarter games would shift to making it a time sink, but that doesn't mean all of them are like that. But at the end of the day, P2W has always been about "The best". You're paying to win, it's the phrase itself. It's harder to translate that to something like WoW though.
    No. Pay to Win has never been about the best things. It has been about things better then others. It isn't harder to translate that to WoW because buying gear would be paying to win. Buying levels is pay to win even if the levels you can buy is irrelevant. Because you are buying power.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I've pointed out far more then Nyalotha as an insult. Also did you need read the part where I said my bad? What more do you want in an apology? Flowers? Candy? A Billboard? Seriously. You act so high and might. Sling insults like crazy. Accuse me of mocking, insulting everyone else when the only person I've took that tone with is you after you insulted my earlier several times. Including gate keeping who can respond to your posts. While even jumping in later with out follow your own rules. Seriously dud what is your problem?




    See. That is all you had to say from the start. You literally spend hours raging about me with every clever insult you could think of. Every little tangent about corrupt, experience, stats and what not. All for you to agree with the very thing I said. Thanks for the laugh in the morning.
    Yeah I'm not bothering with your constant projection anymore, man.

    Like I said a long time ago, gaslighting isn't an argument, I was far more polite to you than needed. Look at your way of responding to an apology, and look at the way you're snipping most of my post out to mock me for agreeing on one thing, while ignoring that I still disagreed.

    Have a good one.

  14. #714
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Yeah I'm not bothering with your constant projection anymore, man. Like I said a long time ago, gaslighting isn't an argument, I was far more polite to you than needed. Look at your way of responding to an apology, and look at the way you're snipping most of my post out to mock me for agreeing on one thing, while ignoring that I still disagreed. Have a good one.
    I just respond how you respond. If you don't want project then don't do it yourself. If you don't want gaslighting then don't do it yourself. You are the one that kept calling people dishonest, kept dismissing, kept label things as poor arguments, kept gate keeping who could respond, and every other thing you can think of. Then you deny. Then you demand an apology after one was given yet have never once apologized yourself.

    You are just as much of the problem. And holy shit dude. You agree with what I originally stated and still can't accept you were wrong and have to point out how you actually disagree even though you stated you agree. Lol. LoL How can I react poorly to an apology when you never gave one? Like Dude stop being so arrogant.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-06-04 at 03:59 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #715
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Then you demand an apology after one was given yet have never once apologized yourself..
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    If you still feel insulted, well, I apologize. Again it wasn't intended to be one.
    Sure. Sure I didn't.

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    This is the most accurate answer to this question: You CAN get ahead of little Timmy who plays without money by buying gold and buy items with the gold, but you can't get in the Leaderboards like Sven who plays hardcore this game and is in one of the top Progress Guilds.

    Except you buy a professional WoW Progress Guild and pay them to play for and with you. But this could probably be done on every game, so every game is P2W.
    To an extent yes... though I think people really underplay the effects of the wow token and current boost culture. The genie is out of the bottle now but before the token boosting was fairly rare.

    Outside of CM and mythic (and back then heroic raiding) you didn't really ever see it. Now its become popularized to the extent its hard to find actual groups in the group finder. I wish blizzard didn't take such a hands off approach to combating it. One GM who is paid to monitor LFG could remove all of the ads in real time.

  17. #717
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Sure. Sure I didn't.
    As you keep insulting with the next post. That isn't an appology if you carry on doing the same thing. You also didn't apologize for your actions but for my feelings. You know just like you said you agree but actually disagree with what I said. You can't have things both ways. Pick one.

    Not to mention I couldn't react poorly to that if I never reacted at all. You projected and gas lighted but felt the need to assign that reaction to me simply because you reacted poorly to me not groveling at your fight because you apologized. Weird right?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    To an extent yes... though I think people really underplay the effects of the wow token and current boost culture. The genie is out of the bottle now but before the token boosting was fairly rare.

    Outside of CM and mythic (and back then heroic raiding) you didn't really ever see it. Now its become popularized to the extent its hard to find actual groups in the group finder. I wish blizzard didn't take such a hands off approach to combating it. One GM who is paid to monitor LFG could remove all of the ads in real time.
    To be fair, I'm not quite sure I'd pin that on the token alone. Before as you've said, there was CM and Mythic to be boosted through. Both are really one time events if you're paying for the mount from Mythic especially. I would venture as far to say the people buying the boosts for this weren't interested in gear really, but the cosmetic rewards.

    Now we have M+, which not only attracts the people who were buying CM boosts so they can get their KSM, but also people who are looking to gear up alts quickly since generally speaking buying a single +15 run isn't too out of the realm of possibilities, unlike Mythic raid boosts which are a hell of a lot more expensive.

    To top it off, SL has the unique issue of PvP being the most reliable way to gear up, encouraging people to also look for PvP boosts rather than spending the time invested in it.

    The token does end up drawing quite a bit of attention in that case for people looking for that quick gold though.

  19. #719
    I've seen a lot of people in this thread discussing the WoW Token. The token is the way Blizzard is trying to regulate and disincentivize people using external sites to exchange real life money for in game items or services. Even if you end the Token, people will sell thing for real money. And the token is actually pretty smart and non intrusive way to mitigate scams and shady sites. So, the game is not made more or less p2w because of the WoW token.

    You could argue in favor of limiting player's interactions and ways to get loot, like eliminating BoEs or banning players from selling services. But, in a way, it would detract from the experience of WoW being an mmo where people can feel like they have different ways to play. The token itself is just a method to make it safer to exchange money for gold, it is not the cause of people trading money for gear, simply because it has existed from long ago and it will exist even if we don't have a token.

  20. #720
    They could have just locked out mythic/heroic raid BOE until world first have been obtained. That would at least make it more interesting and make it feel like you can have a chance in getting world first just as much as the top guilds without having to drop shit tons of gold.

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