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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The mounts are BoE. They could be bought with real cash, to sell on the AH for gold.
    Ahh-- you're right, sure, I've seen them sold. Good point.

    Much less direct than selling tokens, but certainly on the same slippery slope.

  2. #742
    I love how everyone saying it's not pay to win doesn't have legitimate reasons. It just boils down to "because I said so".

  3. #743
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Can't say I can judge considering my pokemon/mtg card buying.

    Despite never playing either anymore lol.

    I am a teensy bit jealous of those Soul Traders though.
    Used to have various collections. Cards of Pokémon, Yugioh, Warcraft TCG, and MTG, on top of that, used to collect Pogs (not the headwear, but the round discs) and few other things, hah.

    And yeah, the traders are my pride and joy.. hoping for a cheap to come on AH so I have three of them.. Haha.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    TCG was not sold by Blizzard though. It was first Upper deck. Then Cryptozoic entertainment that has ties to Blizzard but is a separate privately held company. They are still in business today. It is silly to equate all cash shop type purchases as pay to win even if some believe the token is pay to win. They are no where near the same premise.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptozoic_Entertainment
    Okay.. So, more steps, but in the end, Blizzard.

    And they are the same?

    There just, as I forgot to add, more steps to TCG, but in the end, they brought in gold, like the token. Making it more exclusive than the token because of the gambling.

    Someone in the thread stated that a real-money item from the developer (in this case commissioned out to someone else but still from Blizzard (i.e. codes and all)) which can be traded for in-game gold, is Pay2Win.

    Not to mention that TCG is legal to sell for gold, and game-time was not legal to sell for gold until we could with the token.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I love how everyone saying it's not pay to win doesn't have legitimate reasons. It just boils down to "because I said so".
    Well, as we've seen in the thread, it boils down to different opinions of what 'power' is and what 'advantage' something seems to give.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Ahh-- you're right, sure, I've seen them sold. Good point.

    Much less direct than selling tokens, but certainly on the same slippery slope.
    Both are, according to the development of this thread, indirect P2W as the gold earned could buy you gear or boosts.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  4. #744
    Would it be called p2w in any other MMO?

    YES

    The only reason its not called p2w in WoW is because people dont want to admit it.
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  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Would it be called p2w in any other MMO?

    YES

    The only reason its not called p2w in WoW is because people dont want to admit it.
    Yup, pretty much nailed it on the head here. But WoW diehards will never admit to it.

  6. #746
    Of course it is:
    Wether it’s guilds like Method buying insane amounts of gold or the average Joe buying his Thorgast/M+ shit. It doesn‘t even matter wether you buy that gold legit or not. The fact that Blizzards allows you to buy „services“ like boosts makes it pay to win.

  7. #747
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    It definitely gave the ability to buy gold to those who didn't want to risk the bans, because as you said it was far more risky to back then.

    I just do also wonder how many people use that to buy stuff like CE, because I would think it would be more popular to be like, "Oh, I'll buy a token to get a +15 done this week". At least, currently the NA token is around 180k and I'm pretty sure you could get an M+ run with that (haven't looked into the prices lately though admittedly).

    Granted, that's just more on a lower level of what you're saying anyway I believe, so less of disagreeing and more of idle curiosity.

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    The TCG was was launched in 2006. Which I don't think it's too much of a stretch to call that "legal P2W", it just had more hoops to jump through than the token does.
    I think buying runs is the most popular thing to get with the token. Ive had a few buys book runs after their pay days. I might bemoan the system but since we are stuck with it I might as well profit off it.

  8. #748
    Anything not purely cosmetic, anything that has impact on player power, is pay2win. That's the definition. So WoW is pay2win. But it isn't black and white, selling gold and level boosts like WoW is better than selling raid gear or whatever. It still sucks, though.

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Anything not purely cosmetic, anything that has impact on player power, is pay2win. That's the definition. So WoW is pay2win. But it isn't black and white, selling gold and level boosts like WoW is better than selling raid gear or whatever. It still sucks, though.
    And if the token didn't exist, would people stop doing it? I'll give you a hint: The answer is no.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    And if the token didn't exist, would people stop doing it? I'll give you a hint: The answer is no.
    Entirely irrelevant, the issue isnt that you can buy these things with gold, but that you can get the gold with money.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  11. #751
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I think buying runs is the most popular thing to get with the token. Ive had a few buys book runs after their pay days. I might bemoan the system but since we are stuck with it I might as well profit off it.
    Of all my sales of the tokens, the gold has gone to everything but boosts, though. From supporting RP events to completing that one annoying profession, or even giving money away to people who could use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Anything not purely cosmetic, anything that has impact on player power, is pay2win. That's the definition. So WoW is pay2win. But it isn't black and white, selling gold and level boosts like WoW is better than selling raid gear or whatever. It still sucks, though.
    (The bold part) That is purely how I've seen P2W always, gear, buffs, and things the bring you through current content.

    As for the boost, eh, that is the grey zone. You do not get an advantage in current content but you do get to skip old content, so it is a bit 50/50..

    And I'm just going to be the prick and say, you aren't buying gold from Blizzard, though. This is why I don't see the token as P2W.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Entirely irrelevant, the issue isnt that you can buy these things with gold, but that you can get the gold with money.
    So, like you've been able to do even before the token, both following the ToS and breaking the ToS.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  12. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    Yes, it is.
    1) You can use $$$ to buy a token which is equal to WOW gold.
    2) WOW gold can buy you: BOE gear and boosts (more gear).
    You can basically use $$$ to buy raid achieves (AOTC, KSM) and gear now.
    Blizz does nothing to stop the boosting because it drives token sales (goto line 1)
    Alydael already typed what I wanted to in a more coherent way so i'll just quote them.

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Entirely irrelevant, the issue isnt that you can buy these things with gold, but that you can get the gold with money.
    Oh okay, so anything that detracts from the fact that the game has been loosely "pay2win" since the beginning of time is irrelevant! No, the only thing that matters is EVIL MR. BLIZZARD is using BAD CAPITALISM to profit from something that people did anyway. EVIL BLIZZARD SUCKS! GRR I HATE CAPITALISM!!!

  14. #754
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Of all my sales of the tokens, the gold has gone to everything but boosts, though. From supporting RP events to completing that one annoying profession, or even giving money away to people who could use it.


    (The bold part) That is purely how I've seen P2W always, gear, buffs, and things the bring you through current content.

    As for the boost, eh, that is the grey zone. You do not get an advantage in current content but you do get to skip old content, so it is a bit 50/50..

    And I'm just going to be the prick and say, you aren't buying gold from Blizzard, though. This is why I don't see the token as P2W.

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    So, like you've been able to do even before the token, both following the ToS and breaking the ToS.
    The boost absolutely is not a gray area. It is blatantly increasing character power for money. Just because you or other people view it as trivial doesn't change the fact you are buying player power. Nothing in game allows you to skip 50 levels of content like the boost does.

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Of all my sales of the tokens, the gold has gone to everything but boosts, though. From supporting RP events to completing that one annoying profession, or even giving money away to people who could use it.


    (The bold part) That is purely how I've seen P2W always, gear, buffs, and things the bring you through current content.

    As for the boost, eh, that is the grey zone. You do not get an advantage in current content but you do get to skip old content, so it is a bit 50/50..

    And I'm just going to be the prick and say, you aren't buying gold from Blizzard, though. This is why I don't see the token as P2W.

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    So, like you've been able to do even before the token, both following the ToS and breaking the ToS.
    Its something blizzard should have fought rather than roll over and accept.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  16. #756
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    The boost absolutely is not a gray area. It is blatantly increasing character power for money. Just because you or other people view it as trivial doesn't change the fact you are buying player power. Nothing in game allows you to skip 50 levels of content like the boost does.
    Ah yes, can we get @Rhole to dispense his knowledge of all things leveling boost related? I think we need to rehash that argument for the next 12 pages.

  17. #757
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Oh okay, so anything that detracts from the fact that the game has been loosely "pay2win" since the beginning of time is irrelevant! No, the only thing that matters is EVIL MR. BLIZZARD is using BAD CAPITALISM to profit from something that people did anyway. EVIL BLIZZARD SUCKS! GRR I HATE CAPITALISM!!!
    No, blizzard should have fought their game being p2w, instead of embracing gold selling they should have kept fighting it. You're applauding them not giving a fuck.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  18. #758
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Its something blizzard should have fought rather than roll over and accept.
    Right, I forgot. They're a multi dollar game company. If they wanted to they could just make buying WoW gold a bannable offense and then instantly everybody would stop doing it!

  19. #759
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Ah yes, can we get @Rhole to dispense his knowledge of all things leveling boost related? I think we need to rehash that argument for the next 12 pages.
    You are still that salty and can't even get my username correct. Lol.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    Right, I forgot. They're a multi dollar game company. If they wanted to they could just make buying WoW gold a bannable offense and then instantly everybody would stop doing it!
    So you are, regardless, admitting its p2w. You're just defending p2w as being fine.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

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