Page 47 of 113 FirstFirst ...
37
45
46
47
48
49
57
97
... LastLast
  1. #921
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    No.
    This is not a question of opinion. It's simply pay to win, or not pay and win. There is absolutely no inbetween.
    Lol.

    The win criteria for a pvp player is different from the win criteria of a raider.

    For me winning in WoW is getting CE and I can get that with real money. So for me WoW is pay to win.

  2. #922
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Because people always need more or want more. A common reaction in games.

    And we're back at, if the tokens are cheating, then P2W has been existing since TCG was added.

    Boost prices exploded because of the token. P2W was no longer exclusive to people gambling.
    So it is cheating, causes a conflict of interest and inflation.

  3. #923
    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    Tokens are cheating, cause a conflict of interest and in game inflation.
    tokens did not create inflation... the dont MAKE gold, they only move it around, which was happening before token anyway...

    garrisons created huge inflation, bcs people could MAKE tons of gold out of nothing, for few minutes of time instead of hours of farming,

  4. #924
    Correct, tokens have no inflationary effect at all. Doesn't mean selling them isn't P2W, but they don't impact the economy.

  5. #925
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Correct, tokens have no inflationary effect at all. Doesn't mean selling them isn't P2W, but they don't impact the economy.
    Doesn't that just mean that WoW is trade to win? Because you can trade for services even with out paying real money. The gold and services all come from the same source. The players.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #926
    The Lightbringer vian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Random
    Posts
    3,444
    Buying currency to buy boosts, I guess that's p2w. In the modern era.
    Quote Originally Posted by bizzy View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  7. #927
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    And those players demand gold for Raid entrance, clearance and even drops. They charge a lot of gold that they later use for Account Balance + Game Time + Game Store items. WoW is a big P2W game.
    So a microtransaction. Game time or Blizzard Dollars doesn't let you win at anything. Buying gold with a token just gets you gold. You don't automatically get a boost. You don't automatically get loot. Some players have always demanded gold, or other, restrictions prior to being invited to raids. Prior to personal loot players created elaborate systems to "buy" loot during a raid run. EPGP, DKP, Loot councils, Auction runs.

    That would mean that WoW has always been pay to win and not something that started with the token right? Because the token didn't give anything new in that regards.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #928
    You can use money to buy gold to get full boosts and best gear in game. You aren't buying it off a vendor like some other P2W mmo's and therefore the gear you get would be random from the pool available, but yeah I can easily see the argument it's P2W.

  9. #929
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    So, paying tons of money (From WoW tokens and turned into gold) to enter a raid, get armor/weapons, then do the endgame content easily with that equipment, then repeat the process but now for PVP. Start winning PvP games, because your paid weapons/armor (Brought by Gold/Money) while people are not able to even harm you is not P2W?.....Are you sure is not?
    You aren't using real money to win though. You are using gold. All of what you describe is possible by simply playing the Auction House or other means of earning gold. Or if you still have a large stock pile from WoD and Legion. Look at the AH mount. Do you really think most people used tokens to buy that? That they paid thousands of dollars for the mount?

    Gold allows you to do all sorts of things in the game. The token just takes gold that someone earned and gives it to you. If no one one offers up their gold there is no way for you to trade your money for gold. A player supplied service with player supplied gold is not pay to win. It is just using the game systems as they were designed. To trade gold for stuff.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #930
    Please wait Temp name's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Under construction
    Posts
    14,087
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    And those players demand gold for Raid entrance, clearance and even drops. They charge a lot of gold that they later use for Account Balance + Game Time + Game Store items.

    WoW is a big P2W game.
    But what does paying RL money get you that someone who doesn't can't get?
    Because gold is available to earn in-game, you don't need token for it

  11. #931
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You aren't using real money to win though. You are using gold. All of what you describe is possible by simply playing the Auction House or other means of earning gold. Or if you still have a large stock pile from WoD and Legion. Look at the AH mount. Do you really think most people used tokens to buy that? That they paid thousands of dollars for the mount?

    Gold allows you to do all sorts of things in the game. The token just takes gold that someone earned and gives it to you. If no one one offers up their gold there is no way for you to trade your money for gold. A player supplied service with player supplied gold is not pay to win. It is just using the game systems as they were designed. To trade gold for stuff.
    this is how P2W games work. They take your money, convert it to an currency, you use currency to buy BiS items. most of these P2W games allow you go get said currency without paying as well, doesn't make them less P2W.

  12. #932
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    this is how P2W games work. They take your money, convert it to an currency, you use currency to buy BiS items. most of these P2W games allow you go get said currency without paying as well, doesn't make them less P2W.
    Who is supplying those services and items though. The players or the developers? How can something be pay to win if you can pay and win nothing. Or want to pay but not be able to. Or pay and buy goblin gliders. Or any other number of possibilities that having gold allows.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Dude please....for the love of god....Cant you see where that gold is coming from?....That is right, Tokens. With that gold, that you paid by selling your tokens, you are buying mounts, carries (PVP and PVE), enchantments, potions....you call it!, What ever is in the AH. Is P2W!!.
    The gold comes from players not tokens. A token does not create gold. Using your definition of pay to win isn't simply paying a subscription and box price make the game pay to win? Does buy a goblin glider from the AH with a token allow you to win anything? Or is it a micro transaction? Or are you going to try and claim that all microtransactions are pay to win?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #933
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Who is supplying those services and items though. The players or the developers? How can something be pay to win if you can pay and win nothing. Or want to pay but not be able to. Or pay and buy goblin gliders. Or any other number of possibilities that having gold allows.
    I do see the argument that it's a player supplied way to win, not a developer, as mentioned in previous post, it's not a developer putting it on a vendor. But regardless you can still use RL currency to get BIS items with no effort.

  14. #934
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    I do see the argument that it's a player supplied way to win, not a developer, as mentioned in previous post, it's not a developer putting it on a vendor. But regardless you can still use RL currency to get BIS items with no effort.
    But it still required the effort of a player. Because that gold had to be earned in game in order for another player to be able to buy it. You can also skip the real money and just get those items with "pure" gold. You are also still bound by RNG. In a run you are still bound by personal loot or the lucky of group members to be traded items. From the AH it requires the luck of other players in order to get an item and outside of corruption BoE items are usually not best in slot. Upgrades? Sure.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    And who do you think is getting those US Dollars?. The player?...Nop, Blizzard. That is called Pay To Win my friend.
    Blizzard also pays $15 of that out. So they only get $5 for every transaction as a fee. Just having gold doesn't win you anything. There is no competition to the highest bank account. It is also hilarious that when your argument fails you turn to personal insults. That shows a far greater problem with yourself then anything you could accuse me of. At no point have I defend Blizzard but merely countered your argument.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #935
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But it still required the effort of a player. Because that gold had to be earned in game in order for another player to be able to buy it. You can also skip the real money and just get those items with "pure" gold. You are also still bound by RNG. In a run you are still bound by personal loot or the lucky of group members to be traded items. From the AH it requires the luck of other players in order to get an item and outside of corruption BoE items are usually not best in slot. Upgrades? Sure.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Blizzard also pays $15 of that out. So they only get $5 for every transaction as a fee. Just having gold doesn't win you anything. There is no competition to the highest bank account. It is also hilarious that when your argument fails you turn to personal insults. That shows a far greater problem with yourself then anything you could accuse me of. At no point have I defend Blizzard but merely countered your argument.
    When someone has been proven wrong repeatedly but going on about weird personal perceptions after they abandoned any factual argument like you have. The most civil thing to do is to reticule you till you stop. It is how negative actors are removed from public discourse. Now I am not going to do that as here the reverse is true normally that is how things work out.

  16. #936
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But it still required the effort of a player. Because that gold had to be earned in game in order for another player to be able to buy it. You can also skip the real money and just get those items with "pure" gold. You are also still bound by RNG. In a run you are still bound by personal loot or the lucky of group members to be traded items. From the AH it requires the luck of other players in order to get an item and outside of corruption BoE items are usually not best in slot. Upgrades? Sure.
    It required the effort of players to be get geared enough and skilled enough to be able to sell boosts, which is meaningless. It required blizzard to come up with a nice way to buy gold with money and it required blizzard to do nothing to discourage boosts. Fact is, someone can pay RL currency to get BIS items with no effort and therefore it's pay to win. There isn't enough "buts" to change that fact.

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Who cares about the level of effort of a player....You paid Blizzard US dollars to get "that guy" gold, and that gold is going to serve you to pay the AH/Other player/Guild etc...to win the game. And by winning the game means, complete a Raid, Win Rank in PvP, get that mount drop....etc.
    So you aren't paying to win. You are paying for the ability to maybe win. Effort and separation from the win are important distinctions.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #938
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    When someone has been proven wrong repeatedly but going on about weird personal perceptions after they abandoned any factual argument like you have. The most civil thing to do is to reticule you till you stop. It is how negative actors are removed from public discourse. Now I am not going to do that as here the reverse is true normally that is how things work out.
    Ridicule. If you are going to be a negative actor at least put some effort into it please. I haven't abandoned any factual arguments or a weird perception of pay to win. Pay to win is the act of buying power for real life money. Buying gold is not buying power. Gold is not a special currency that is created just for paying to win. It is not given out in a trickle to entice "free players" for partaking. The other key thing is the directness of buying that power and if it comes from normal game play or not.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    It required the effort of players to be get geared enough and skilled enough to be able to sell boosts, which is meaningless. It required blizzard to come up with a nice way to buy gold with money and it required blizzard to do nothing to discourage boosts. Fact is, someone can pay RL currency to get BIS items with no effort and therefore it's pay to win. There isn't enough "buts" to change that fact.
    Blizzard has never done anything to discourage boosts. Group play is a normal part of the game and trading that play for things is also a normal part of play. It isn't for no effort either as you just said it takes effort for the boosters to provide the service. Weird how you dismiss something as meaningless when it goes against a cornerstone of your argument.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    @beanman12345, for real. The only reason i believe these guys defend so hard WoW Tokens, is because they probably wasted tons and tons of US Dollars on that crap. And in order to avoid feeling bad about it, they defend it. They probably suffer from WoW-Addiction. Because there is no way to explain this behavior.
    So you can't win an argument on merits so you turn to insults. Including make things up just so you can feel better about yourself. I have never bought a token with real money. I have bought them with gold because the idea of saving $13 a month is nice. Shadowlands is the first time I've been able to buy tokens in a large amount since it has also be easy for me to gain "close to" passive gold. At least until the token price went higher then 130k.

    It is laughable that the only reason someone could disagree with you is that they are addicted to WoW. Stop projecting. If you dislike what Blizzard has done so much why are you still playing let alone discussing it on a fan site forum?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    @rhorle, it doesnt even make sense what you are saying. You said that is not Pay to Win just because another guy farmed the gold and used the gold to purchase a WoW-Token, and the other players get the gold and then proceed to buy tons of things with it, just because it looks like a fair play?. Don't you think is Pay to Win, to take out your wallet, use your credit card in Blizzard Web Page, purchase a Token, wait for the gold to arrive to your mail and then buy a space in the next raid + paying gold for the drops?...or even PvP rank wins?. Is Pay to Win.!
    Nope. Because buying gold is not paying for a win. It is paying for possibilities that cover far more then just a win. It is a micro transaction and not all micro transactions are pay to win. A mount? Not pay to win. A flask? Not pay to win. Trading gold for a boost, BoP, or BoE is not pay to win. Because that is gold and is a normal part of group play.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •