So now it is a scheme. What if I don't spend the gold? What if I gain more gold before I buy the BoE? What portion is pay to win then? What if I give away gold to a friend but then buy a BoE? Is it still a pay to win scheme just because I once bought gold? How do we know which gold is bought and which gold is earned? Do the goblins stamp them different?
The more steps you are required to employ to keep proving that something is pay to win the less legitimate the claim becomes. Buying gold with a token is a micro transaction. It isn't paying to win because you win nothing by buying that gold. It allows you the opportunity to buy normal game stuff. No part of the game is designed specifically to offer an advantage by buying gold.
Being wealthier provides advantages and is true with or with out the token. The token makes it easier to become wealthy by givings others a strong incentive to trade you their gold. But it does give you a win unless others offer it.
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
What is it when that happens with out using a token? Is it still buying power? How do you tell the two types apart? Or do you just assume everyone better then you bought a token so you can justify hating them for no reason?
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Oh. So now merely buying gold is winning. Weird how now it doesn't matter what you do with the gold. Why the change?
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
Well, we've come to the sliver of fact that a boost is the only real, minor P2W, as the other things are bound to subjective views, and indirect actions. Though, people seem keen to include indirect actions, even though definitions of P2W were shared earlier in the thread of that being purchases of power, gear, or ability that others could not, or had to take longer to achieve without buying from the developer. In WoW, the only direct P2W is the option of the boost.
So, now we're at indirect and direct P2W options.
FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..
You don't define the game rules though Blizzard does. Setting your own goals is the same reason why something being against the rules matters. Your logic says that a person can not be a cheater if their goal is to cheat. You are again confusing words. Completing a goal is not the same thing as winning. P2W has referred to power or advantages. A mount is not an advantage, it is an cosmetic.
Your own arguments though present a paradox. If meanings change and a win is subjective then nothing is pay to win and everything is pay to win. It is a pointless term when each individual can define it differently with out anyone being able to tell before hand. If everything is redefined on the fly then words lose all meaning and it is point less to use them.
I could say the game is pay to Apple and you can't refute that claim because to mean Apple is earning achievements. That isn't how language or anything of value works though.
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Visual superiority is power now? Let me guess you were one of those people that complained when others way back in WotLK could no longer tell how cool you were by shoulder models right? Because the shoulders were no longer unique to the difficulty you cleared.
It is amusing though how you now claim buying gold is winning. Why didn't you start with that? What changed? Why spend hours saying that what you do with the gold is what determines if it is pay to win when all along it was merely having gold that is pay to win.
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It isn't bad logic. What happens if a person buys a boost, or gear, with out using a token? Is it it still pay to win. Do you still considered it in your mind to be pay to win just to vilify the person that beat you? Is that what pay to win comes down to and why token buying is bad? Because others can defeat you by means you aren't willing to use?
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
Again that is not the logic being used. That statement is to find motivation for disliking something. As things like this often come down to emotional responses of what has occurred. It is why the definition of pay to win is so subjective. Because it isn't the actual act of paying to win but the perception of that act. Which is why some say buying a mount is pay to win because someone else perceives that as a win.
There are plenty of games that are pay to win and WoW has it in the form of level boosts. Not tokens. Tokens are merely a micro transaction and you are not buying a currency whose sole purpose is to buy power. Which is what sets it apart from other games that have a pay to win currency. The nature of the game economy is important as well. The power that you supposedly win by buying the token is part of the normal player driven economy. Even the gold you get is all player driven.
If Blizzard was directly creating the gold then this would be an open and shut case of pay to win. But because they created the system to require a player to deposit gold in order for another to receive it then it isn't pay to win. It is a micro transaction to transfer wealth with a $5 transaction fee paid to Blizzard. Because the other player receives $15 either in balance or game time.
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
Humm...i dont know man...
I dont think the fact "gold is not magically created with the token and is community driven" stops it from possibly being pay to win.
Because...
Imagine if is possible to buy ALL mythic raid drops on auction house...
That would be more obvious (outrage and whatnot by the community)
Is the "token doesnt create gold fact" even important in some way for a game to be pay to win or not?
Yes. Because it shows what the normal game rules are and the impact of the token on the game. Creating gold out of thin air will have different impacts then transferring wealth from one player to another. If we imagine as you say and that all mythic raid drops could be sold on the Auction House then the token still wouldn't be pay to win. Because it is a normal part of the game that can buy all forms of power. Gold still isn't a currency created to promote "pay to win" systems.
"Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."
Did you read what I wrote? I mean with a thought?
I think not, so I make this statement again. Now read, and answer my question PLEASE:
You bought 5 million gold with money to get this ”pay to win power”, but you did not receive anything because I paid those booster groups more money to NOT boost you.
And here comes the question: What power did you gain?
No, because one person is trading real cash money from outside the game.
The definition of P2W is using real money to gain an advantage inside the game. That can be in-game currency, any non-cosmetic items, "time savers", you name it. Some games let you buy special powerful ammo that non-paying players can't get, that's the most egregious example, but less offensive in-game advantages are P2W too.
Last edited by Schizoide; 2021-06-08 at 02:46 AM.
What is so sad about this is the jaded people who insist others to be as jaded as them... What gives?
'if WOW is pay 2 win, then all games are pay 2 win'
Come on. You don't change your world view especially something that has to do with a degree of of morality (however insignificant) just because the world is getting worse. OK! EVEN if you accept you are jaded, why go around demanding others to be as jaded as you?
Like if you still hang on to your original morality that boosting is pay 2 win YOU are a problem YOU need to change to become like ME who accept 'reality'. NO!? NO? how about NO?
Last edited by gobio; 2021-06-08 at 02:44 AM.
Boosting is clearly P2W. If you're OK with that then go for it, it's your money and there are certainly worse things you can do with it. It's not anything I would ever do personally, but I don't think you're a scumbag for paying. No judgements here.
You can state that as many times as you want but it doesn't make it more true than the first time
Some win criteria are much more universally accepted than others. More people would agree that getting CE is winning wow than getting 5 ruined pelts.
You can get the most sought achievements in the game by paying real money, so for a lot of players that is pay 2 win. Buying a CE boost from a top guild is pay 2 win.
WoW is pay 2 win in many ways.
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No that's your definition of pay 2 win.
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You couldn't buy a boost with real life money in Vanilla within the rules of the games. You can do that today via the wow token. There's a big difference.
A pay 2 win game doesnt work this way. usually in a pay 2 win game ur paying to buy items inaccessible to people that dont buy them with real money and give ridiculous amount of power/stats/domination/ call it whatever u want. here you're buying urself a boost for items that are 1- accessible to all, 2-not really needed apart from trinkets since u can get the same loot from the vault/ its just pay to save time.
Actually, that has been part of the discussion of the thread, direct or indirect. According to definitions of P2W, it is direct, aka. the token should be generating gold out of nowhere, but it is not, the token is a digital game-time product that you can sell for gold, someone else gets game-time, and if gold is winning, then this is an indirect P2W.
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Well, people insist that catch-up is power, so, yes, a boost is pay to win - and a good example of the actual definition of P2W then, as it is a direct transaction from the developer - unlike token.
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You could do the following through the old content, and still can:
Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for game-time.
Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for real money.
Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for gold purchased from a gold seller.
Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for self-farmed gold.
Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for items (Rare, but happened).
Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for future boost service.
Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for gold from TCG loot sale.
Today, you can do all of the above, and the following.
Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for gold from the game-time sale (Token).
Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for gold from TCG loot sale.
Since people in this thread started talking direct and indirect P2W, unlike today, and when the token came, there was an exclusive method of P2W since October 2006, TCG loot. And before that and with it, indirectly, the game was P2W because people traded game-time in before it was permitted as well. So, if the token is P2W, then it is the most inclusive P2W there is available.
FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..
I was selling boosts long before Blizzard introduced WoW tokens. For sure adding the WoW Token shifted things on a theoretical level but on a practical level not that much, you already could buy boosts before by playing the AH game.
If anything, it turned the game into a Win to Pay game for me. WoW Tokens allow me to never have to pay a subscription anymore.
This I can agree, that buying a boost is paying for this power to not having to level up, BUT. Haha, there's always a but here.
IMHO(!) Everyone should ask themselves what is the "power" really there? I mean for_fucking_real, what did you win when you bought a lvl boost? 1 week of gameplay? Seriously? In a game where you spent literally a year(or 17 years) of playing, and now someone skipped 7 days and you feel so_bad about it that it became a gamebreaking thing and people are in disadvantageous situation because of this, say you couldn't join that world first rush or something?
Yeap, I can and looks like I will state it in the future too. The difference here is I provide somesort of insight why I feel like this, and give examples why I feel like this.
If this is a discussion of opinion, like is green a great or a bad colour, I see absolutely no point discussing it as it is an opinion and everyone is entitled to one.
BUT, I don't think a game being "pay to win" is, or should be a question of opinion but a fact. You see it either is, or it is not.
I quote what you wrote yourself, and bold and underline the most important part there:
But once again, hear my example and answer my question in the end, please:
You said "you can get the most sought achievement in game by paying real money which is for a lot of players a pay to win"
So, let's imagine this situation where you just spent 10000£ to buy gold, and now you sit with 5 million gold, asking for these boosts and achievements ->
I paid those boosters even more gold and real-life currency to NOT boost you, and I succeeded. You did not get into any group, you gained no achievements.
So here is the question, what power you paid for yourself? You now sit with 5 million gold, unable to get into any group. I'll ask again, what did you gain?
There is IMO the underlying truth about buying power. It relies on the community, and we are the community are we not? We, ourselves have set this bar of having a boosted title and achievement is considered important and "winning the game", it's not blizzard, it's not because the game is pay to win, it's us.
Once you stop feeling bad about not having some achievement or title, they are gone. You can even right now, join a guild and do those things yourself like they are meant to be, you can play the game like the boosters do, with a group of people with similar mindset, they want to play the game and get world firsts.
I'm pretty sure the world first kills, season first glads etc, they are not boosted, they are played by us, the community.
And quoted for the truth just below:
Let's be honest, you have always been able to buy a boost. "Well it was against the rules".... OH, right, the rules...... the mighty rules.... I heard botting was too against the rules but OH, no it didn't happen ever, actually at this moment there certainly are not bots farming herbs. No, hell no! Against the rules you see...
:/