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  1. #981
    Guys, let's face the correct issue here. Are P2W ppl bad or just lazy?

  2. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Don't you think is Pay to Win, to take out your wallet, use your credit card in Blizzard Web Page, purchase a Token, wait for the gold to arrive to your mail and then buy a space in the next raid + paying gold for the drops?...or even PvP rank wins?.

    Is Pay to Win.!
    so wow wasnt p2w before token, when people bought gold from shady website and use it to buy bis item or boost from someone? or when they straight up used RL money to buy boost on internet... or bought WoW TCG cards, and then sell mounts/pets from those, some for MILIONS...
    i might see someones logic behin WoW being p2w bcs you can buy gear/ boosts (although i disagree), but then it ALWAYS, since the very begining was p2w, and it have nothing to do with token... you could buy gold, items or boost since vanila ffs, years before token was even idea...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2021-06-07 at 09:31 PM.

  3. #983
    It is definitely p2w in a sense. And seems to get worst and worst every expansion. I won't be surprised in 5 years if it's fully p2w in as in buying raid/pvp sets. I am not sure why people think buying gold through wow tokens is in no sense p2w. Competitive mythic raid teams save millions if not billions of gold to literally get a head start with boe's every new raid. Which is clearly an advantage to someone who doesn't pay. You can use gold to get carried through raids and pvp... If we had a guild go around and take $1000+ real money to get you full bis gear, that would be frowned upon. Especially if everyone did it and you did not have $1000+.... But if you play blizzard $1000+ and give the guild gold it's cool and not pay2win? I don't understand. WoW is p2w.

  4. #984
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else
    well... didnt you prove yourself wrong?
    you simply cant buy better gear than anyone else...
    at best you can buy few pieces AS GOOD as mythic raiders but no matter how much money you spend you cant buy better...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2021-06-07 at 09:32 PM.

  5. #985
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    if curve/ksm is what your after, your not paying the premium for the BIS, but still paying to win, since curve/ksm is the goal, and your paying to achieve goal with money. If your paying the premium you'll get something, maybe not useful, which unless your continuously buying boosts, it'll be useful. And if you are constinuously buying boosts, you'll be decked BiS eventually.
    So now it is pay to win eventually. So what fraction of pay to win is one token?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #986
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dvedder View Post
    Guys, let's face the correct issue here. Are P2W ppl bad or just lazy?
    Well, we've discussed and still are, what P2W truly is in WoW.

    And I've mentioned or tried to, about how long we've had P2W but people seem to believe the token was the start, others, the boost - and for me, if token is P2W, then WoW was P2W since October 2006.

    As for the people, they can be bad, lazy, busy, not caring, or unable to find people to achieve something with.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  7. #987
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So now it is pay to win eventually? So what fraction of pay to win is one token then?
    I'm happy with all your replies since they prove my assertations correct. thanks. But fact is it's p2w.

  8. #988
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    I'm happy with all your replies since they prove my assertations correct. thanks.
    I agree with you pal. They are so into this P2W thing, that they cant see how wrong they are.

  9. #989
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    so wow wasnt p2w before token, when people bought gold from shady website and use it to buy bis item or boost from someone? or when they straight up used RL money to buy boost on internet...
    i might see someones logic behin WoW being p2w bcs you can buy gear/ boosts (although i disagree), but then it ALWAYS, since the very begining was p2w, and it have nothing to do with token... you could buy gold, items or boost since vanila ffs, years before token was even idea...
    You are somewhat correct. But the problem is blizzard being okay with it being p2w. If blizzards wanted they could ban accounts for RMT. But they use it as a problem to not only save money by not hiring mods to ban RMT, but make money with WoW tokens. And they are technically still rumors so I won't get too into it but it would seem as if blizzard allowed sites to RMT to get extra money/ create a problem to "fix" with WoW tokens.. So in a sense yah as long as gearing/boosts is available for money it is p2w even before WoW token. If blizzard was like many other games*many who are way smaller companies with smaller funds* and banned people for breaking terms of service with RMT the p2w is gone. But instead Blizzard is greedy and wants to make more money at the expense of the game.

  10. #990
    Stood in the Fire Helander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    Yes, it is.
    1) You can use $$$ to buy a token which is equal to WOW gold.
    2) WOW gold can buy you: BOE gear and boosts (more gear).
    You can basically use $$$ to buy raid achieves (AOTC, KSM) and gear now.
    Blizz does nothing to stop the boosting because it drives token sales (goto line 1)
    I also have a conspiracy theory with absolutely no evidence to support it, that most of the RMT boosting services are managed by blizzard employees.

  11. #991
    Quote Originally Posted by beanman12345 View Post
    I'm happy with all your replies since they prove my assertations correct. thanks. But fact is it's p2w.
    But only pay to win eventually. It is possible you could pay and not win. Why won't you define the fraction that each token is? Shouldn't that be clear if it is pay to win? Wouldn't that mean the token is gambling rather then pay to win?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #992
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helander View Post
    I also have a conspiracy theory with absolutely no evidence to support it, that most of the RMT boosting services are managed by blizzard employees.
    Don't.. Just don't.. Some people will believe it. It is unhealthy, and conspiracy theories are not permitted on MMO-champion.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2021-06-07 at 09:41 PM.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  13. #993
    Quote Originally Posted by derekmmorgan94 View Post
    You are somewhat correct. But the problem is blizzard being okay with it being p2w. If blizzards wanted they could ban accounts for RMT. But they use it as a problem to not only save money by not hiring mods to ban RMT, but make money with WoW tokens. And they are technically still rumors so I won't get too into it but it would seem as if blizzard allowed sites to RMT to get extra money/ create a problem to "fix" with WoW tokens.. So in a sense yah as long as gearing/boosts is available for money it is p2w even before WoW token. If blizzard was like many other games*many who are way smaller companies with smaller funds* and banned people for breaking terms of service with RMT the p2w is gone. But instead Blizzard is greedy and wants to make more money at the expense of the game.
    Is just a way for Blizzard to make money. I don't proof of this, but i started to believe they manipulate the prices of WoW Tokens since day one. Why?. The price rise and fall actually fits them correctly, like for example, when they are going to give their Annual meetings with their investors. Something smell fishy on those tokens, they have 0 regulation from the Government or any other institution that would keep people protected from bad practices.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Helander View Post
    I also have a conspiracy theory with absolutely no evidence to support it, that most of the RMT boosting services are managed by blizzard employees.
    I would actually believe that too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Don't.. Just don't.. Some people will believe it.
    Blizzard is just about money pal. Is a big business. How did you think Activision/Blizzard paid Bobby Kotick his $200M bonus. With Overwatch?. Diablo 3?. Starcraft 2?....LOL, of course not. Is WoW the money factory.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But only pay to win eventually. It is possible you could pay and not win. Why won't you define the fraction that each token is? Shouldn't that be clear if it is pay to win? Wouldn't that mean the token is gambling rather then pay to win?
    That doesnt even make sense...

  14. #994
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That would mean that WoW has always been pay to win and not something that started with the token right? Because the token didn't give anything new in that regards.
    Yes, I would agree with this conclusion. But, I think it's true of any multiplayer game with an economy. So long as players can use in-game currency to purchase either gear or boosts in content then a method of acquiring that currency via real life money will occur, whether with the approval of the company or not. With the introduction of the token Blizzard simply gave that approval for what had long been going on anyway.

    The distinction between what was historically considered P2W and what could now reasonably be considered P2W exists, but definitions are not static. So long as a current player can use cash to accomplish their goals in the game, they are winning via that cash, at least from their perspective. From someone else's perspective they may be winning nothing because the goals differ between those players.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by derekmmorgan94 View Post
    You are somewhat correct. But the problem is blizzard being okay with it being p2w. If blizzards wanted they could ban accounts for RMT. But they use it as a problem to not only save money by not hiring mods to ban RMT, but make money with WoW tokens. And they are technically still rumors so I won't get too into it but it would seem as if blizzard allowed sites to RMT to get extra money/ create a problem to "fix" with WoW tokens.. So in a sense yah as long as gearing/boosts is available for money it is p2w even before WoW token. If blizzard was like many other games*many who are way smaller companies with smaller funds* and banned people for breaking terms of service with RMT the p2w is gone. But instead Blizzard is greedy and wants to make more money at the expense of the game.
    how many people got bans for missusing bugs? literaly tens of thousands every now and then, and yet when new "lucrative" bug is what people do? missuse the shit out of it... so no, baning people for selling shit wouldnt stop it, only if they gave permabans, and that would cost them WAY TOO MUCH players, so ofc they couldnt do that...

    so yes, even though it was against TOS blizz didnt care much about people selling money/items/boosts (hell my old guild we were selling for over decade), problem blizz wanted to solve with token was shady websites and people using phishing and other shit and compromising security of players, they cant have that, so they came up with token to solve this, and ofc, make some money (what a surprise, business that want to make money...)

  16. #996
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    That doesnt even make sense...
    Gambling is when you pay for a chance to win or lose. If buying a token and using it for a boost does not guarantee you a "win" then it would be gambling. Because you are paying for the chance to lose as well as the chance to win. Pay to Win requires there to be no chance to lose right? Otherwise it would just be gambling. Right?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #997
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Blizzard is just about money pal. Is a big business. How did you think Activision/Blizzard paid Bobby Kotick his $200M bonus. With Overwatch?. Diablo 3?. Starcraft 2?....LOL, of course not. Is WoW the money factory.
    Well, update, he wasn't paid 200 million, he was paid less, the stocks made it 200 million, following on another update, (most likely a media stunt) he rejected his payment offered which had been in negotiation since 2018 and agreed on a salary cut.

    Further on, don't derail an already volatile topic with bullshit like that. Conspiracy theories do not belong on MMO-champion, so take your tinfoil hat and go to some Discord with that.

    As for the income of Blizzard, yes, D3+exp, SC2+exp, Overwatch, HotS, WoW, Classic Project, Hearthstone, Warcraft. That is how a business makes money, selling a product. That is how you earn gold in WoW, selling a product. Everyone sells a product, whether you agree to it or not. A service or an item, sales, and trades.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  18. #998
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Is just a way for Blizzard to make money. I don't proof of this, but i started to believe they manipulate the prices of WoW Tokens since day one. Why?. The price rise and fall actually fits them correctly, like for example, when they are going to give their Annual meetings with their investors. Something smell fishy on those tokens, they have 0 regulation from the Government or any other institution that would keep people protected from bad practices.
    if you had some economics knowledge you would see the token price actualy moves pretty predictable and as it should with such market...

  19. #999
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Yes, I would agree with this conclusion. But, I think it's true of any multiplayer game with an economy. So long as players can use in-game currency to purchase either gear or boosts in content then a method of acquiring that currency via real life money will occur, whether with the approval of the company or not. With the introduction of the token Blizzard simply gave that approval for what had long been going on anyway.

    The distinction between what was historically considered P2W and what could now reasonably be considered P2W exists, but definitions are not static. So long as a current player can use cash to accomplish their goals in the game, they are winning via that cash, at least from their perspective. From someone else's perspective they may be winning nothing because the goals differ between those players.
    Well, with the token Blizzard permitted all to enjoy this service, before that, it was exclusively bound to gambling with TCG. So, if the token is P2W, then TCG is too, and it was worse.

    That of course means we are not including all the ToS breaking indirect P2W, since people love spouting about direct and indirect P2W. If we went with indirect only, then WoW has been P2W since its launch.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  20. #1000
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Blizzard is just about money pal.
    jeez, a company that wants to make money, how unusual... im sure you go to work just for good feeling and you work pro bono, but alas, other people are not so altruistic and they expect to get paid for their work or get profit from their investment...

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