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  1. #981
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Yes, I would agree with this conclusion. But, I think it's true of any multiplayer game with an economy. So long as players can use in-game currency to purchase either gear or boosts in content then a method of acquiring that currency via real life money will occur, whether with the approval of the company or not. With the introduction of the token Blizzard simply gave that approval for what had long been going on anyway.

    The distinction between what was historically considered P2W and what could now reasonably be considered P2W exists, but definitions are not static. So long as a current player can use cash to accomplish their goals in the game, they are winning via that cash, at least from their perspective. From someone else's perspective they may be winning nothing because the goals differ between those players.
    Well, with the token Blizzard permitted all to enjoy this service, before that, it was exclusively bound to gambling with TCG. So, if the token is P2W, then TCG is too, and it was worse.

    That of course means we are not including all the ToS breaking indirect P2W, since people love spouting about direct and indirect P2W. If we went with indirect only, then WoW has been P2W since its launch.
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  2. #982
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Blizzard is just about money pal.
    jeez, a company that wants to make money, how unusual... im sure you go to work just for good feeling and you work pro bono, but alas, other people are not so altruistic and they expect to get paid for their work or get profit from their investment...

  3. #983
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Is just a way for Blizzard to make money. I don't proof of this, but i started to believe they manipulate the prices of WoW Tokens since day one. Why?. The price rise and fall actually fits them correctly, like for example, when they are going to give their Annual meetings with their investors. Something smell fishy on those tokens, they have 0 regulation from the Government or any other institution that would keep people protected from bad practices.
    Blizzard has already explained that the token market is operated on supply and demand, and they do not fiddle with it, now if you have proof of otherwise, then do share, else it is conspiracies. You are of course in your freedom to not believe it.
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  4. #984
    Yeah, it is. There is one area in the game which makes it tolerable for me though - highend raiding. If mythic paid boosts were more available I wouldnt be playing.
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  5. #985
    Current state of season 1 PvP is pure P2W. Thousands of boosters in 2s, 3s and RBGs.

    People sell tokens > trade the gold for boosts that they can't get themselves > P2W

    The fact that you can buy gold with real money and boosting is absolutely fine makes the game P2W and the argument "it's not because you can do it without paying" falls flat since those people CANNOT do it without paying.
    Man often meets his destiny, on the path he takes to avoid it.

  6. #986
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    I could sell some tokens, pay a guy with my gold from my USD to get me into a raid and get the Powerful Mythic items + guarantee drops that no one is going to keep + PvP Ranks or just go to the AH and buy epics there. Is P2W, these guys says its not, but it is....
    The Auction House requires someone else to win and to share their loot with you. That isn't paying to win. The token is a micro transaction for gold but not paying to win. What you do with that gold is up to you. You can give it away. You can spend it on a mount (which isn't pay to win). You can buy gear. You can buy a boost. The transaction itself isn't paying to win because you are not winning anything.

    You are merely gaining opportunities that wealth brings.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  7. #987
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Well, with the token Blizzard permitted all to enjoy this service, before that, it was exclusively bound to gambling with TCG. So, if the token is P2W, then TCG is too, and it was worse.

    That of course means we are not including all the ToS breaking indirect P2W, since people love spouting about direct and indirect P2W. If we went with indirect only, then WoW has been P2W since its launch.
    Sorry, I may not have been clear, but this is exactly what I would assert. And I believe it to be true of any multiplayer game that contains an economy. WoW, FFXIV, ESO, etc ... have all been some form of P2W from their launch because a player could use real money to acquire in-game gear or glory. That the companies running those games did not allow gold-selling is irrelevant, we all know it happened. The only difference the Token makes to this is that it is Blizzard tacitly allowing the exchange of cash for whatever a player may determine for themselves is a "win" in the game.

    This is why I find the argument of whether any particular multiplayer game is P2W to be a pointless discussion. The only real discussion to be had on the subject is whether a person is OK with the developers allowing the transactions fully (such as with the Token) or prefer for the developers to make the P2W aspects of their game an underground affair (such as it was before the Token).

    There's just really no argument to be had. Multiplayer economies inevitably lead to cash purchases for gear/glory and for the person buying those services it counts as a win whether I, personally, felt they won anything of value.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  8. #988
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    I could sell some tokens, pay a guy with my gold from my USD to get me into a raid and get the Powerful Mythic items + guarantee drops that no one is going to keep + PvP Ranks or just go to the AH and buy epics there. Is P2W, these guys says its not, but it is....

    Same thing happens in Elder Scrolls Online. You sell your Crowns for cosmetics from the store, get all that gold and buy a powerful item from the Trade Guild and you are now deadly.
    Naw, my point is more, if the token is P2W, then WoW has been P2W since October 2006, and indirectly, since launch and the topic of the thread was over before it even started.
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  9. #989
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You can give it away. You can spend it on a mount (which isn't pay to win). You can buy gear. You can buy a boost. The transaction itself isn't paying to win because you are not winning anything.
    These things are not winning ... to you. To the person purchasing them they are the very definition of winning.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  10. #990
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Sorry, I may not have been clear, but this is exactly what I would assert. And I believe it to be true of any multiplayer game that contains an economy. WoW, FFXIV, ESO, etc ... have all been some form of P2W from their launch because a player could use real money to acquire in-game gear or glory. That the companies running those games did not allow gold-selling is irrelevant, we all know it happened.
    That is a bit silly. It matters if something is against the rules or allowed. That is also making the argument that any game that charges any amount of money is pay to win. Because someone somewhere had to pay money for the box, subscription, or whatever other price not covered. It dilutes the meaning of pay to win and defeats the purpose of having a categorical descriptor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    These things are not winning ... to you. To the person purchasing them they are the very definition of winning.
    You are confusing important with "winning". Not everything is a win just because it exists and is important to some one. That dilutes the meaning of pay to win because that is literally anything in the game. Simply subscribing to the game could be seen as a win for someone thus making subscriptions pay to win. If everything is pay to win then nothing is pay to win. It just is.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  11. #991
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    Sorry, I may not have been clear, but this is exactly what I would assert. And I believe it to be true of any multiplayer game that contains an economy. WoW, FFXIV, ESO, etc ... have all been some form of P2W from their launch because a player could use real money to acquire in-game gear or glory. That the companies running those games did not allow gold-selling is irrelevant, we all know it happened. The only difference the Token makes to this is that it is Blizzard tacitly allowing the exchange of cash for whatever a player may determine for themselves is a "win" in the game.

    This is why I find the argument of whether any particular multiplayer game is P2W to be a pointless discussion. The only real discussion to be had on the subject is whether a person is OK with the developers allowing the transactions fully (such as with the Token) or prefer for the developers to make the P2W aspects of their game an underground affair (such as it was before the Token).

    There's just really no argument to be had. Multiplayer economies inevitably lead to cash purchases for gear/glory and for the person buying those services it counts as a win whether I, personally, felt they won anything of value.
    Now we're getting on a point I mentioned far back in the thread, that any game is P2W if they have the ability to trade currency with other players, some examples of course, breaks ToS, but then someone started talking about direct and indirect P2W, and suddenly it got more fleshed out, as that would mean illegal sales of game-time would be indirect P2W.

    Then again, someone shared some definitions that P2W involves purchasing power/gear/buffs from the developer, which is a correct statement, which would categorize the boost as P2W, while the token is more in the grey - if we talk direct P2W

    But if we talk indirect P2W, then we have things such as...
    ... ToS breaking game-time sales (Purchase game-time from Blizzard to sell) for gold.
    ... ToS breaking merchandise sales (Purchase game merch from Blizzard to sell) for gold.
    ... Sale of TCG (Loot cards)
    ... Sale of Token (Game-time)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    These things are not winning ... to you. To the person purchasing them they are the very definition of winning.
    Well, we know by fact, someone claims winning is getting all achievements. But then we circle back to winning being subjective.
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  12. #992
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Lol.

    The win criteria for a pvp player is different from the win criteria of a raider.

    For me winning in WoW is getting CE and I can get that with real money. So for me WoW is pay to win.
    ALLLLLLLLLRIGHTY THEN! Let's get to it then:


    First, if we talk about winning, it's absolutely pointless as it has been pointed out a million times, everyone has their own idea of their "winning". I won the game by collecting 5 ruined pelts from lvl 1 mobs, and that's a fact no one can change. It's my win.

    Then, let's once again talk about paying to win. So, I assume you aswell say the gold-buying -> buying a boost is a pay to win, yes?
    Before I will make you(and for everyone else aswell) an example, I want to state once again, that wow is not pay to win at all.
    (Obviously at this point we have to agree atleast on some degree what the heck that "winning" means because of what I said previously about my own terms of winning, so let's say winning is getting that high-end gear, a title, achievement, a place in a raid or a gladiator title, it can be all of these, or just one)
    I hope we have an agreement here(?) So then, to the example:

    Ok, so you and many claim wow is pay to win, which I disagree strongly. You claim by buying gold, you gain power, which indirectly means wow is pay for win.
    Allright, so you and I are on the same realm, playing like normal people do, suddenly you decide to "buy that win" with money, so you purchase gold, and you are now packed with 5 million gold, whereas I sit on 3.5 gold.
    You start the process of getting yourself these "wins" you claim you can buy, BUT! Now pay close attention what is about to happen.
    I cockblock your all attempts of getting a boost, gladiator title, raidspot, and gear. I did it by paying money to all the boosters you contacted.
    Now, where is your "win"?? You paid a thousand pounds to get 5 million gold, yet still you are sitting at 158 ilvl, no title, no raidspot, no glad.
    I went through a huge effort, and paid a thousand pounds to not get you anything, so where is the pay to win aspect here? Is wow suddenly pay-to-let-others-lose?
    You gain nothing, blizzard will not give you your money back, they wont boost you or give you glads, so what did you win?
    How was this pay to win?

    You all have to understand that boosts are done by us, the players and the community of wow. We are the ones who enable it, and buy it, no one else.
    Boosting has been here pretty much always, and I'm willing to bet my left nut that someone has bought a boost in vanilla, 17 years ago.
    Also, if you consider "winning" these titles, glad, high-end gear or whatever, every game is pay to win, because in every game where there are achievements, a rank or whatever competetive shit, you can buy yourself these things. Every. Time. Even on the dredged "PONG" who someone mentioned earlier being the only game "non pay to win" has it's elements whereas one could say it's "pay to win"(Remember, "winning" is a personal thing here).

    Pay to win, means you can buy power. For example go to blizzard store, select a trinket with stats -> 8€ -> cash out and check mailbox and said trinket is there.
    That, ladies and gentlemen, is paying to win. It is not pay to win when you give basedweller Larry a handjob and he grinds 2200 rating for you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
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    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  13. #993
    Do I get to buy the top rank in any/all arenas? Epic BGs? World-first raids?

    Your answer should be no. As is the answer to this thread's question.

  14. #994
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dead Moose Fandango View Post
    Do I get to buy the top rank in any/all arenas? Epic BGs? World-first raids?

    Your answer should be no. As is the answer to this thread's question.
    I'm pretty sure you can. You think someone from high end guild is not gonna give me a spot when I offer him 1000€? 10 000€? 100 000€?
    You can buy anything with money, still doesn't make it pay to win since it's enabled by other players, not the company.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  15. #995
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Part 6: Thank you for participating in our Pay To Win scheme. Love you Blizzard!. Keep going champ, is not P2W, is just a fancy Token system that only benefits me with money, and you with fake currency.
    So now it is a scheme. What if I don't spend the gold? What if I gain more gold before I buy the BoE? What portion is pay to win then? What if I give away gold to a friend but then buy a BoE? Is it still a pay to win scheme just because I once bought gold? How do we know which gold is bought and which gold is earned? Do the goblins stamp them different?

    The more steps you are required to employ to keep proving that something is pay to win the less legitimate the claim becomes. Buying gold with a token is a micro transaction. It isn't paying to win because you win nothing by buying that gold. It allows you the opportunity to buy normal game stuff. No part of the game is designed specifically to offer an advantage by buying gold.

    Being wealthier provides advantages and is true with or with out the token. The token makes it easier to become wealthy by givings others a strong incentive to trade you their gold. But it does give you a win unless others offer it.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  16. #996
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That is a bit silly. It matters if something is against the rules or allowed.
    Why would that matter at all? The only difference it makes is in your perception of the company running the game. Even if it's not allowed, if people are still able to purchase power/glory via cash then the game is fundamentally P2W.

    That is also making the argument that any game that charges any amount of money is pay to win. Because someone somewhere had to pay money for the box, subscription, or whatever other price not covered. It dilutes the meaning of pay to win and defeats the purpose of having a categorical descriptor.
    To a very small point, yes, being required to buy the game is a little bit of winning. Someone who can't afford to buy the game loses by default But it's a win we all accept as part of a capitalist economy.

    Whether you like it or not, the meaning of P2W has been long since diluted. Meanings change over time and most people no longer accept the idea that P2W is ONLY the game directly selling power on a cash shop.

    You are confusing important with "winning". Not everything is a win just because it exists and is important to some one. That dilutes the meaning of pay to win because that is literally anything in the game. Simply subscribing to the game could be seen as a win for someone thus making subscriptions pay to win. If everything is pay to win then nothing is pay to win. It just is.
    We're not allowed to quote dictionary definitions of MMOC, but winning encompasses more than just the victor in a contest. If my goal in the game is to achieve KSM and I buy a boost, then for myself I have won the game. If my goal in life is to be able to afford to play WoW, then subscribing is indeed "winning", for me. You are the one confusing what you find to be important as the sole definition of "winning", other people may feel differently.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

  17. #997
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    And getting wreak in PvP by a guy with tons of Epics he got from buying carries in Battlegrounds and other PvP events is not buying power right?.
    What is it when that happens with out using a token? Is it still buying power? How do you tell the two types apart? Or do you just assume everyone better then you bought a token so you can justify hating them for no reason?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Why is so hard for you to understand than buying gold is Power?. And its P2W....?
    Oh. So now merely buying gold is winning. Weird how now it doesn't matter what you do with the gold. Why the change?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  18. #998
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    I'm pretty sure you can. You think someone from high end guild is not gonna give me a spot when I offer him 1000€? 10 000€? 100 000€?
    You can buy anything with money, still doesn't make it pay to win since it's enabled by other players, not the company.
    Well, we've come to the sliver of fact that a boost is the only real, minor P2W, as the other things are bound to subjective views, and indirect actions. Though, people seem keen to include indirect actions, even though definitions of P2W were shared earlier in the thread of that being purchases of power, gear, or ability that others could not, or had to take longer to achieve without buying from the developer. In WoW, the only direct P2W is the option of the boost.

    So, now we're at indirect and direct P2W options.
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  19. #999
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    What is it when that happens with out using a token? Is it still buying power? How do you tell the two types apart? Or do you just assume everyone better then you bought a token so you can justify hating them for no reason?
    Same can be said for any other game you consider to "actually" be pay to win
    Lets say...Black Desert Online:

    You: "How do you know the person that killed you paid to win?"

    Me: "Ugh, i dont know"

    You: "Game is not pay to win then"

    ......

    Bad logic

  20. #1000
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    We're not allowed to quote dictionary definitions of MMOC, but winning encompasses more than just the victor in a contest. If my goal in the game is to achieve KSM and I buy a boost, then for myself I have won the game. If my goal in life is to be able to afford to play WoW, then subscribing is indeed "winning", for me. You are the one confusing what you find to be important as the sole definition of "winning", other people may feel differently.
    You don't define the game rules though Blizzard does. Setting your own goals is the same reason why something being against the rules matters. Your logic says that a person can not be a cheater if their goal is to cheat. You are again confusing words. Completing a goal is not the same thing as winning. P2W has referred to power or advantages. A mount is not an advantage, it is an cosmetic.

    Your own arguments though present a paradox. If meanings change and a win is subjective then nothing is pay to win and everything is pay to win. It is a pointless term when each individual can define it differently with out anyone being able to tell before hand. If everything is redefined on the fly then words lose all meaning and it is point less to use them.

    I could say the game is pay to Apple and you can't refute that claim because to mean Apple is earning achievements. That isn't how language or anything of value works though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Gold buys you: Cosmetics (Visual superiority), Armor/Weapons (Power), Enchants/Potions (Utilities and more power), Economical power against other players (Buying carries for PvP and PvE). You call it. Why is now merely buying gold winning?. Because is POWER. The power to buy whatever you want. The most powerful P2W aspect of the game. Like i already explained on my first point.
    Visual superiority is power now? Let me guess you were one of those people that complained when others way back in WotLK could no longer tell how cool you were by shoulder models right? Because the shoulders were no longer unique to the difficulty you cleared.

    It is amusing though how you now claim buying gold is winning. Why didn't you start with that? What changed? Why spend hours saying that what you do with the gold is what determines if it is pay to win when all along it was merely having gold that is pay to win.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    Bad logic
    It isn't bad logic. What happens if a person buys a boost, or gear, with out using a token? Is it it still pay to win. Do you still considered it in your mind to be pay to win just to vilify the person that beat you? Is that what pay to win comes down to and why token buying is bad? Because others can defeat you by means you aren't willing to use?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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