1. #1021
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    33,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    I'm pretty sure you can. You think someone from high end guild is not gonna give me a spot when I offer him 1000€? 10 000€? 100 000€?
    You can buy anything with money, still doesn't make it pay to win since it's enabled by other players, not the company.
    Well, we've come to the sliver of fact that a boost is the only real, minor P2W, as the other things are bound to subjective views, and indirect actions. Though, people seem keen to include indirect actions, even though definitions of P2W were shared earlier in the thread of that being purchases of power, gear, or ability that others could not, or had to take longer to achieve without buying from the developer. In WoW, the only direct P2W is the option of the boost.

    So, now we're at indirect and direct P2W options.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  2. #1022
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    What is it when that happens with out using a token? Is it still buying power? How do you tell the two types apart? Or do you just assume everyone better then you bought a token so you can justify hating them for no reason?

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh. So now merely buying gold is winning. Weird how now it doesn't matter what you do with the gold. Why the change?
    Gold buys you: Cosmetics (Visual superiority), Armor/Weapons (Power), Enchants/Potions (Utilities and more power), Economical power against other players (Buying carries for PvP and PvE). You call it.

    Why is now merely buying gold winning?. Because is POWER. The power to buy whatever you want. The most powerful P2W aspect of the game. Like i already explained on my first point.

  3. #1023
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    What is it when that happens with out using a token? Is it still buying power? How do you tell the two types apart? Or do you just assume everyone better then you bought a token so you can justify hating them for no reason?
    Same can be said for any other game you consider to "actually" be pay to win
    Lets say...Black Desert Online:

    You: "How do you know the person that killed you paid to win?"

    Me: "Ugh, i dont know"

    You: "Game is not pay to win then"

    ......

    Bad logic

  4. #1024
    Quote Originally Posted by Spaceboytg View Post
    We're not allowed to quote dictionary definitions of MMOC, but winning encompasses more than just the victor in a contest. If my goal in the game is to achieve KSM and I buy a boost, then for myself I have won the game. If my goal in life is to be able to afford to play WoW, then subscribing is indeed "winning", for me. You are the one confusing what you find to be important as the sole definition of "winning", other people may feel differently.
    You don't define the game rules though Blizzard does. Setting your own goals is the same reason why something being against the rules matters. Your logic says that a person can not be a cheater if their goal is to cheat. You are again confusing words. Completing a goal is not the same thing as winning. P2W has referred to power or advantages. A mount is not an advantage, it is an cosmetic.

    Your own arguments though present a paradox. If meanings change and a win is subjective then nothing is pay to win and everything is pay to win. It is a pointless term when each individual can define it differently with out anyone being able to tell before hand. If everything is redefined on the fly then words lose all meaning and it is point less to use them.

    I could say the game is pay to Apple and you can't refute that claim because to mean Apple is earning achievements. That isn't how language or anything of value works though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Gold buys you: Cosmetics (Visual superiority), Armor/Weapons (Power), Enchants/Potions (Utilities and more power), Economical power against other players (Buying carries for PvP and PvE). You call it. Why is now merely buying gold winning?. Because is POWER. The power to buy whatever you want. The most powerful P2W aspect of the game. Like i already explained on my first point.
    Visual superiority is power now? Let me guess you were one of those people that complained when others way back in WotLK could no longer tell how cool you were by shoulder models right? Because the shoulders were no longer unique to the difficulty you cleared.

    It is amusing though how you now claim buying gold is winning. Why didn't you start with that? What changed? Why spend hours saying that what you do with the gold is what determines if it is pay to win when all along it was merely having gold that is pay to win.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    Bad logic
    It isn't bad logic. What happens if a person buys a boost, or gear, with out using a token? Is it it still pay to win. Do you still considered it in your mind to be pay to win just to vilify the person that beat you? Is that what pay to win comes down to and why token buying is bad? Because others can defeat you by means you aren't willing to use?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #1025
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Because others can defeat you by means you aren't willing to use?
    By that logic there is no game in the world that is pay to win

    Can you actually tell us here one game that is pay to win on the market at the moment in your opinion?

  6. #1026
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    By that logic there is no game in the world that is pay to win
    Again that is not the logic being used. That statement is to find motivation for disliking something. As things like this often come down to emotional responses of what has occurred. It is why the definition of pay to win is so subjective. Because it isn't the actual act of paying to win but the perception of that act. Which is why some say buying a mount is pay to win because someone else perceives that as a win.

    There are plenty of games that are pay to win and WoW has it in the form of level boosts. Not tokens. Tokens are merely a micro transaction and you are not buying a currency whose sole purpose is to buy power. Which is what sets it apart from other games that have a pay to win currency. The nature of the game economy is important as well. The power that you supposedly win by buying the token is part of the normal player driven economy. Even the gold you get is all player driven.

    If Blizzard was directly creating the gold then this would be an open and shut case of pay to win. But because they created the system to require a player to deposit gold in order for another to receive it then it isn't pay to win. It is a micro transaction to transfer wealth with a $5 transaction fee paid to Blizzard. Because the other player receives $15 either in balance or game time.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Again that is not the logic being used. That statement is to find motivation for disliking something. As things like this often come down to emotional responses of what has occurred. It is why the definition of pay to win is so subjective. Because it isn't the actual act of paying to win but the perception of that act. Which is why some say buying a mount is pay to win because someone else perceives that as a win.

    There are plenty of games that are pay to win and WoW has it in the form of level boosts. Not tokens. Tokens are merely a micro transaction and you are not buying a currency whose sole purpose is to buy power. Which is what sets it apart from other games that have a pay to win currency. The nature of the game economy is important as well. The power that you supposedly win by buying the token is part of the normal player driven economy. Even the gold you get is all player driven.

    If Blizzard was directly creating the gold then this would be an open and shut case of pay to win. But because they created the system to require a player to deposit gold in order for another to receive it then it isn't pay to win. It is a micro transaction to transfer wealth with a $5 transaction fee paid to Blizzard. Because the other player receives $15 either in balance or game time.
    Humm...i dont know man...
    I dont think the fact "gold is not magically created with the token and is community driven" stops it from possibly being pay to win.

    Because...
    Imagine if is possible to buy ALL mythic raid drops on auction house...
    That would be more obvious (outrage and whatnot by the community)

    Is the "token doesnt create gold fact" even important in some way for a game to be pay to win or not?

  8. #1028
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    Is the "token doesnt create gold fact" even important in some way for a game to be pay to win or not?
    Yes. Because it shows what the normal game rules are and the impact of the token on the game. Creating gold out of thin air will have different impacts then transferring wealth from one player to another. If we imagine as you say and that all mythic raid drops could be sold on the Auction House then the token still wouldn't be pay to win. Because it is a normal part of the game that can buy all forms of power. Gold still isn't a currency created to promote "pay to win" systems.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #1029
    Quote Originally Posted by Clozer View Post
    There is also no difference between someone who bought gear from the store and someone who grinded it himself? There is no point.
    We aren't discussing gear.

  10. #1030
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Finland (North of Darnassus)
    Posts
    932
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    And getting wreak in PvP by a guy with tons of Epics he got from buying carries in Battlegrounds and other PvP events is not buying power right?.

    Or what about wreaking enemies in PvE, because your item level is so high, because you paid a guy to get you into Mythics, Raids and other PvP events that landed you tons of epics?....That is Power

    And that Power is winning the game. And winning the game with an unfair advantage, like selling Tokens to get tons of gold is a serious advantage. And that is P2W

    - - - Updated - - -



    Money is power, and even in the game, having tons of gold, for what ever you may need is power. For many players it takes tons of time to make it. For a guy with a Credit card, only 2mins.
    Did you read what I wrote? I mean with a thought?
    I think not, so I make this statement again. Now read, and answer my question PLEASE:
    You bought 5 million gold with money to get this ”pay to win power”, but you did not receive anything because I paid those booster groups more money to NOT boost you.
    And here comes the question: What power did you gain?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Doesn't that just mean that WoW is trade to win? Because you can trade for services even with out paying real money. The gold and services all come from the same source. The players.
    No, because one person is trading real cash money from outside the game.

    The definition of P2W is using real money to gain an advantage inside the game. That can be in-game currency, any non-cosmetic items, "time savers", you name it. Some games let you buy special powerful ammo that non-paying players can't get, that's the most egregious example, but less offensive in-game advantages are P2W too.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2021-06-08 at 02:46 AM.

  12. #1032
    What is so sad about this is the jaded people who insist others to be as jaded as them... What gives?

    'if WOW is pay 2 win, then all games are pay 2 win'

    Come on. You don't change your world view especially something that has to do with a degree of of morality (however insignificant) just because the world is getting worse. OK! EVEN if you accept you are jaded, why go around demanding others to be as jaded as you?

    Like if you still hang on to your original morality that boosting is pay 2 win YOU are a problem YOU need to change to become like ME who accept 'reality'. NO!? NO? how about NO?
    Last edited by gobio; 2021-06-08 at 02:44 AM.

  13. #1033
    Boosting is clearly P2W. If you're OK with that then go for it, it's your money and there are certainly worse things you can do with it. It's not anything I would ever do personally, but I don't think you're a scumbag for paying. No judgements here.

  14. #1034
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    First, if we talk about winning, it's absolutely pointless as it has been pointed out a million times, everyone has their own idea of their "winning". I won the game by collecting 5 ruined pelts from lvl 1 mobs, and that's a fact no one can change. It's my win.

    Then, let's once again talk about paying to win. So, I assume you aswell say the gold-buying -> buying a boost is a pay to win, yes?
    Before I will make you(and for everyone else aswell) an example, I want to state once again, that wow is not pay to win at all.
    You can state that as many times as you want but it doesn't make it more true than the first time

    Some win criteria are much more universally accepted than others. More people would agree that getting CE is winning wow than getting 5 ruined pelts.

    You can get the most sought achievements in the game by paying real money, so for a lot of players that is pay 2 win. Buying a CE boost from a top guild is pay 2 win.

    WoW is pay 2 win in many ways.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Pay to win, means you can buy power. For example go to blizzard store, select a trinket with stats -> 8€ -> cash out and check mailbox and said trinket is there.
    That, ladies and gentlemen, is paying to win. It is not pay to win when you give basedweller Larry a handjob and he grinds 2200 rating for you.
    No that's your definition of pay 2 win.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Boosting has been here pretty much always, and I'm willing to bet my left nut that someone has bought a boost in vanilla, 17 years ago.
    Also, if you consider "winning" these titles, glad, high-end gear or whatever, every game is pay to win, because in every game where there are achievements, a rank or whatever competetive shit, you can buy yourself these things.
    You couldn't buy a boost with real life money in Vanilla within the rules of the games. You can do that today via the wow token. There's a big difference.

  15. #1035
    A pay 2 win game doesnt work this way. usually in a pay 2 win game ur paying to buy items inaccessible to people that dont buy them with real money and give ridiculous amount of power/stats/domination/ call it whatever u want. here you're buying urself a boost for items that are 1- accessible to all, 2-not really needed apart from trinkets since u can get the same loot from the vault/ its just pay to save time.

  16. #1036
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    33,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Roanda View Post
    Is the "token doesnt create gold fact" even important in some way for a game to be pay to win or not?
    Actually, that has been part of the discussion of the thread, direct or indirect. According to definitions of P2W, it is direct, aka. the token should be generating gold out of nowhere, but it is not, the token is a digital game-time product that you can sell for gold, someone else gets game-time, and if gold is winning, then this is an indirect P2W.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Boosting is clearly P2W. If you're OK with that then go for it, it's your money and there are certainly worse things you can do with it. It's not anything I would ever do personally, but I don't think you're a scumbag for paying. No judgements here.
    Well, people insist that catch-up is power, so, yes, a boost is pay to win - and a good example of the actual definition of P2W then, as it is a direct transaction from the developer - unlike token.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    You couldn't buy a boost with real life money in Vanilla within the rules of the games. You can do that today via the wow token. There's a big difference.
    You could do the following through the old content, and still can:

    Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for game-time.
    Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for real money.
    Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for gold purchased from a gold seller.
    Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for self-farmed gold.
    Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for items (Rare, but happened).
    Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for future boost service.
    Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for gold from TCG loot sale.

    Today, you can do all of the above, and the following.

    Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for gold from the game-time sale (Token).
    Not Breaking ToS but, purchase of boost for gold from TCG loot sale.

    Since people in this thread started talking direct and indirect P2W, unlike today, and when the token came, there was an exclusive method of P2W since October 2006, TCG loot. And before that and with it, indirectly, the game was P2W because people traded game-time in before it was permitted as well. So, if the token is P2W, then it is the most inclusive P2W there is available.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  17. #1037
    I was selling boosts long before Blizzard introduced WoW tokens. For sure adding the WoW Token shifted things on a theoretical level but on a practical level not that much, you already could buy boosts before by playing the AH game.

    If anything, it turned the game into a Win to Pay game for me. WoW Tokens allow me to never have to pay a subscription anymore.

  18. #1038
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Finland (North of Darnassus)
    Posts
    932
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Well, we've come to the sliver of fact that a boost is the only real, minor P2W, as the other things are bound to subjective views, and indirect actions. Though, people seem keen to include indirect actions, even though definitions of P2W were shared earlier in the thread of that being purchases of power, gear, or ability that others could not, or had to take longer to achieve without buying from the developer. In WoW, the only direct P2W is the option of the boost.

    So, now we're at indirect and direct P2W options.
    This I can agree, that buying a boost is paying for this power to not having to level up, BUT. Haha, there's always a but here.
    IMHO(!) Everyone should ask themselves what is the "power" really there? I mean for_fucking_real, what did you win when you bought a lvl boost? 1 week of gameplay? Seriously? In a game where you spent literally a year(or 17 years) of playing, and now someone skipped 7 days and you feel so_bad about it that it became a gamebreaking thing and people are in disadvantageous situation because of this, say you couldn't join that world first rush or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    You can state that as many times as you want but it doesn't make it more true than the first time

    Some win criteria are much more universally accepted than others. More people would agree that getting CE is winning wow than getting 5 ruined pelts.
    Yeap, I can and looks like I will state it in the future too. The difference here is I provide somesort of insight why I feel like this, and give examples why I feel like this.
    If this is a discussion of opinion, like is green a great or a bad colour, I see absolutely no point discussing it as it is an opinion and everyone is entitled to one.
    BUT, I don't think a game being "pay to win" is, or should be a question of opinion but a fact. You see it either is, or it is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    You can get the most sought achievements in the game by paying real money, so for a lot of players that is pay 2 win. Buying a CE boost from a top guild is pay 2 win.

    WoW is pay 2 win in many ways.
    I quote what you wrote yourself, and bold and underline the most important part there:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    No that's your definition of pay 2 win.
    But once again, hear my example and answer my question in the end, please:

    You said "you can get the most sought achievement in game by paying real money which is for a lot of players a pay to win"
    So, let's imagine this situation where you just spent 10000£ to buy gold, and now you sit with 5 million gold, asking for these boosts and achievements ->
    I paid those boosters even more gold and real-life currency to NOT boost you, and I succeeded. You did not get into any group, you gained no achievements.
    So here is the question, what power you paid for yourself? You now sit with 5 million gold, unable to get into any group. I'll ask again, what did you gain?


    There is IMO the underlying truth about buying power. It relies on the community, and we are the community are we not? We, ourselves have set this bar of having a boosted title and achievement is considered important and "winning the game", it's not blizzard, it's not because the game is pay to win, it's us.
    Once you stop feeling bad about not having some achievement or title, they are gone. You can even right now, join a guild and do those things yourself like they are meant to be, you can play the game like the boosters do, with a group of people with similar mindset, they want to play the game and get world firsts.
    I'm pretty sure the world first kills, season first glads etc, they are not boosted, they are played by us, the community.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    You couldn't buy a boost with real life money in Vanilla within the rules of the games. You can do that today via the wow token. There's a big difference.
    And quoted for the truth just below:
    Quote Originally Posted by Senen View Post
    I was selling boosts long before Blizzard introduced WoW tokens.
    Let's be honest, you have always been able to buy a boost. "Well it was against the rules".... OH, right, the rules...... the mighty rules.... I heard botting was too against the rules but OH, no it didn't happen ever, actually at this moment there certainly are not bots farming herbs. No, hell no! Against the rules you see...
    :/
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  19. #1039
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    33,668
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    This I can agree, that buying a boost is paying for this power to not having to level up, BUT. Haha, there's always a but here.
    IMHO(!) Everyone should ask themselves what is the "power" really there? I mean for_fucking_real, what did you win when you bought a lvl boost? 1 week of gameplay? Seriously? In a game where you spent literally a year(or 17 years) of playing, and now someone skipped 7 days and you feel so_bad about it that it became a gamebreaking thing and people are in disadvantageous situation because of this, say you couldn't join that world first rush or something?
    According to members in this thread, you win saving time, 8-10 hours of played time leveling. (I find it a bit of a joke, hence I call it minor).

    I am not 100% agreeing on the boost being P2W but it is the only close example of direct P2W service according to the P2W definitions of purchasing powers/benefits/buffs from the developer.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  20. #1040
    P2W no
    Pay To Catch Up - yeah probably,

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •