1. #1021
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    There is IMO the underlying truth about buying power. It relies on the community, and we are the community are we not? We, ourselves have set this bar of having a boosted title and achievement is considered important and "winning the game", it's not blizzard, it's not because the game is pay to win, it's us.
    Once you stop feeling bad about not having some achievement or title, they are gone. You can even right now, join a guild and do those things yourself like they are meant to be, you can play the game like the boosters do, with a group of people with similar mindset, they want to play the game and get world firsts.
    I'm pretty sure the world first kills, season first glads etc, they are not boosted, they are played by us, the community.
    Okay I get your point. So because the boosts still rely on the community and not solely on the developers you don't define it as pay 2 win. I don't agree but I understand your argument. For me WoW is pay 2 win simply because you are able to buy achievements with rlm without breaking any rules. To me it doesn't really matter if it's bought directly from the developers or through a middle man (the community).

  2. #1022
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Okay I get your point. So because the boosts still rely on the community and not solely on the developers you don't define it as pay 2 win. I don't agree but I understand your argument. For me WoW is pay 2 win simply because you are able to buy achievements with rlm without breaking any rules. To me it doesn't really matter if it's bought directly from the developers or through a middle man (the community).
    We can have an agreement there, I despise the boosting culture and it’s a disgusting thing to have, you know spend real money to achieve something in game, I don’t think it is an achievement at all.
    But yeah, money is power and you can even get to be a president if you have enough. It is sad
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  3. #1023
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    no, it wasn't flat out give money for gold and use gold for getting gear or boosts, for start the boost scene itself barely if it did exist at all pre token era, gold didn't mean non-ending sub time, so raiders needed gold just for flasks and repairs, which a few dailies once a week enough to cover, no need to boost a whale for gold, and while every guild had its own gold herder, it still was hard to get on weekly basis 8 other guild members to boost a random whale for gold
    If u wanted to raid, u either pug or join guild, there is no gold option, want challenge mode dungeons in MoP? get gud, NO alternative (heck i organized lot of raids and even downed Garrosh on hc difficulty, back then was highest difficulty if i remember right)
    There was massive boosting running even back then, the majority was controlled by 3rd party sites. And CM Dungeons were sold a lot too in MoP, as earning gold in MoP was quite simple as well, not as high as WoD pre-token.

    And TCG was the first item that did not break the ToS to be bought for real money and sold for gold. If we include ToS breaking, then game-time was on the table too, next to gold purchases.
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  4. #1024
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    There was massive boosting running even back then, the majority was controlled by 3rd party sites. And CM Dungeons were sold a lot too in MoP, as earning gold in MoP was quite simple as well, not as high as WoD pre-token.

    And TCG was the first item that did not break the ToS to be bought for real money and sold for gold. If we include ToS breaking, then game-time was on the table too, next to gold purchases.
    i played on many servers in wow europe, stormscale, bronze dragonflight, ghostlands, bladefist, and finally Twisting Nether from WoD+
    I can easily say that up to WoD time, i rarely if ever saw a gold boost sell on trade on any of those other servers, so no while there was of course some gold boost sell (I myself did one gold boost raid in ToC during wrath, since back then i was in 2nd best guild on server and best horde), it is absolutely nothing like token-wow era of sell raid boosts for gold, or a tank selling boost doing m+ as my rl friend did during Legion
    So if i wasn't clear: pre-token wow gold didn't have actual money value, i can right now tell u how much a euro can buy u gold in wow using blizz own website, that line didn't exist pre-tokens, that line is why wow became P2W, when wow gold obtained an official euro value from blizzard
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  5. #1025
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    i played on many servers in wow europe, stormscale, bronze dragonflight, ghostlands, bladefist, and finally Twisting Nether from WoD+
    I can easily say that up to WoD time, i rarely if ever saw a gold boost sell on trade on any of those other servers, so no while there was of course some gold boost sell (I myself did one gold boost raid in ToC during wrath, since back then i was in 2nd best guild on server and best horde), it is absolutely nothing like token-wow era of sell raid boosts for gold, or a tank selling boost doing m+ as my rl friend did during Legion
    So if i wasn't clear: pre-token wow gold didn't have actual money value, i can right now tell u how much a euro can buy u gold in wow using blizz own website, that line didn't exist pre-tokens, that line is why wow became P2W, when wow gold obtained an official euro value from blizzard
    But technically, gold has had a value before the token, just hidden behind exclusive gambling, or if breaking the ToS, it had a set value by 3rd party?

    As for me, during Vanilla, I played on 4 different servers on US, and one on EU, and there were daily mentions of gold sales, gold boost, link to 3rd party websites for RMT boosts or gold boost booking, as well as sales of TCG loot (BoE's) for a high amount of gold because that was the only way to get gold with real money without breaking ToS. The token has basically made the P2W inclusive for everyone, if indirect P2W is a thing, before that, P2W was exclusively for people with money in real life, willing to hoard TCG cards in a gamble in hope of loot. And today, we have people prancing with screenshots of guild banks containing a massive amount of TCG loot that they use for easy earning of gold on the auction.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2021-06-08 at 12:04 PM.
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  6. #1026
    You pay, your toon grow much stronger than f2p ones, you can kill any boss, you can win any pvp by youself, others can barely scratch you. Thats p2w. Not happened in wow currently.

    You pay, you get boosted for raid/arena/bg. Literally other guys win it for you. Your toon do not became stronger, you still can't kill/win anyhing by yourself. Thats boosting, exists in any MMO.

    You can learn how to play, and kill boosted toons without spending real money for becaming stronger. Wow reality.

  7. #1027
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Indeed. The definition of P2W is power/benefits/buffs purchased from the developer.

    The token is a tradeable product of game-time, but then some started talking about direct and indirect P2W. P2W would be, in my opinion, directly dealt with by the developer, whereof, there are no other things in the store other than the boost, if saving time is considered a benefit/power.
    Now you are just running through the fields of mashed potatoes.

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  8. #1028
    One thing to keep in mind is that Blizzard doesn't sell raid boosts.

    By all means dunk on them for players being able to purchase a token and buy expensive BoEs on the auction house.

    But PLAYERS are selling boosts and have for much longer than they haven't.

    If buying a token makes it easier to get boosts, and buying a token is P2W as a result.

    Then so is paying for the damn sub
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2021-06-08 at 12:22 PM.
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  9. #1029
    Lowkey funny how this thread is now going on a fullblown week with people coping using advanced mental gymnastics.

  10. #1030
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    No, because one person is trading real cash money from outside the game. The definition of P2W is using real money to gain an advantage inside the game. That can be in-game currency, any non-cosmetic items, "time savers", you name it. Some games let you buy special powerful ammo that non-paying players can't get, that's the most egregious example, but less offensive in-game advantages are P2W too.
    But they are not using cash to trade for what is being called the win. They are trading cash for the gold. Which again means using your own definitions that WoW is pay to trade and not pay to win.
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  11. #1031
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But they are not using cash to trade for what is being called the win. They are trading cash for the gold. Which again means using your own definitions that WoW is pay to trade and not pay to win.
    Using your.... logic?

    If I went and released a starving lion into a preschool I wouldn't be committing murder as it was the lion killing people rather then my direct action right?

  12. #1032
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    This I can agree, that buying a boost is paying for this power to not having to level up, BUT. Haha, there's always a but here.
    IMHO(!) Everyone should ask themselves what is the "power" really there? I mean for_fucking_real, what did you win when you bought a lvl boost? 1 week of gameplay? Seriously? In a game where you spent literally a year(or 17 years) of playing, and now someone skipped 7 days and you feel so_bad about it that it became a gamebreaking thing and people are in disadvantageous situation because of this, say you couldn't join that world first rush or something?
    It may be relatively small amounts of power but it is still power. When does the power bought with real money change from being "pay to win" to "not pay to win"? When it is mythic gear? Heroic gear? What if you can buy one Mythic gear item from the store per tier? That is paying to skip at most a week because loot lockouts are a week long. Is that paying to win? Or is that similar to level skips and shouldn't be considered it.

    That is the problem you run into when you start subjectively defining buying power based on what you feel should and shouldn't be it. Are level boosts a big deal? No. I haven't even used mine because I only want to boost races that get heritage armor and boosting doesn't grant it. But they are still pay to win because it involves power no matter how small. And as the goblins say time is money.
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  13. #1033
    Yes it is, althougt with some extra steps, and not as direct as other games. You buy a token, convert it to gold, then use gold to buy anything you want. Mythic+ carries, Arena carries, Raid carries, BiS items, mounts, whatever you want and can´t or won´t get by normal means. The "good" thing is that, except for Arena carries, no one is affected by this system. If you have the money, you don´t need to play the game to "win" it.

  14. #1034
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    Using your.... logic? If I went and released a starving lion into a preschool I wouldn't be committing murder as it was the lion killing people rather then my direct action right?
    That is a rather direct action. Buying a token in your scenario would be similar to buying a lion. Buying the lion doesn't require you to release it in a preschool. Just as buying a token doesn't guarantee you a win or get you a win. It just gets you gold which is the lion in your scenario. If using gold to buy a boost is pay to win then it means it is also pay to win if you never bought a token.

    Because the gold is being used regardless. Gold is not a currency specifically set up to encourage "pay to win" like some games use.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #1035
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    That is a rather direct action. Buying a token in your scenario would be similar to buying a lion. Buying the lion doesn't require you to release it in a preschool. Just as buying a token doesn't guarantee you a win or get you a win. It just gets you gold which is the lion in your scenario. If using gold to buy a boost is pay to win then it means it is also pay to win if you never bought a token.

    Because the gold is being used regardless. Gold is not a currency specifically set up to encourage "pay to win" like some games use.
    True but its the lion that is killing people not the direct actions of me buying a lion so clearly it isn't murder as it isn't a 1 to 1 correlation.

    Honestly... are you just arguing to argue? I can't believe you actually hold the thoughts you do.

  16. #1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    True but its the lion that is killing people not the direct actions of me buying a lion so clearly it isn't murder as it isn't a 1 to 1 correlation. Honestly... are you just arguing to argue? I can't believe you actually hold the thoughts you do.
    But not all lions are going to kill preschoolers. Some can live peacefully in a sanctuary. What you do with the lion (gold) is what is being discussed. But merely having the ability to use it to win doesn't make buying that gold pay to win. The only one arguing to argue here is yourself who has admitted to being a bad actor and who routinely insults and derails any actual discussion taking place.

    It is amusing that you can't understand how others can hold a different view then yourself though. Maybe see some of the world.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  17. #1037
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But they are not using cash to trade for what is being called the win. They are trading cash for the gold. Which again means using your own definitions that WoW is pay to trade and not pay to win.
    Does not matter that it's one step removed. Real money gives an in-game advantage, that is the definition of P2W.

  18. #1038
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But not all lions are going to kill preschoolers. Some can live peacefully in a sanctuary. What you do with the lion (gold) is what is being discussed. But merely having the ability to use it to win doesn't make buying that gold pay to win. The only one arguing to argue here is yourself who has admitted to being a bad actor and who routinely insults and derails any actual discussion taking place.

    It is amusing that you can't understand how others can hold a different view then yourself though. Maybe see some of the world.
    Any good inventor understands that if you want to invent something from a moral stand point you have to approach it from the perspective of "what is the most harm could cause in the wrong hands".

    I know people are buying tokens for boosts... I have people who schedule a run with me on their pay days (their words not mine)... You can refuse to accept the situation we are in. I can't force you to accept it but there is a reason why you have hundreds of posts explaining why your reasoning is wrong and it isn't them simply trolling you.

  19. #1039
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Does not matter that it's one step removed. Real money gives an in-game advantage, that is the definition of P2W.
    So a subscription is pay to win? A box price? Those all give advantages over the WoW free play option.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I know people are buying tokens for boosts... I have people who schedule a run with me on their pay days (their words not mine)... You can refuse to accept the situation we are in. I can't force you to accept it but there is a reason why you have hundreds of posts explaining why your reasoning is wrong and it isn't them simply trolling you.
    Hundreds of post from the same few people doesn't prove anything. Just as people saying they use their payday to buy tokens doesn't prove anything. They user their paydays to buy gold. What they use their gold on after that is irrelevant to the RMT. Of course you are simply trolling. You pick out random posts and come at them with stupid logic. You even admitted to trolling in an earlier post. Lol. You always turn the discussions to me, the poster, rather then sticking to the ideas. And you seem to make it a personal mission to do so to a lot of posts I make.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  20. #1040
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    True but its the lion that is killing people not the direct actions of me buying a lion so clearly it isn't murder as it isn't a 1 to 1 correlation.

    Honestly... are you just arguing to argue? I can't believe you actually hold the thoughts you do.
    To make your lion example fit the token discussion it would be that you buy the lion from a company, then sell it to another guy, who then sets it free.
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