1. #1081
    Compared to other clarified P2W MMOs the answer is an affirmative no. There are far far worse MMOs out there. If you're defining P2W by the universally accepted definition of the term - the answer is kind of/ sort of - yes. A strong argument can be made that it is and it isn't, but then again if a strong argument can be made then WOW is P2W.
    Last edited by Luxeley; 2021-06-08 at 05:09 PM.

  2. #1082
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    The average player does NOT have the gold to be buying multiple tokens. So as I said, you are being exceptionally dishonest. You are claiming someone can get a few tokens A WEEK which is just pure bull shit. Saying that buying gold with a token doesn't give you an advantage over a player needing to spend time to grind out gold is just an outright lie.
    It isn't a lie. Every token requires someone to spend time gaining gold. How do people that buy tokens with gold earn enough to sell several a week? How do people in the game earn enough to supply the thousands of people buying tokens? The average player can earn a fair amount of gold with a little work put in. Even now you can still afford a token a month with a little work to level alts to cap and doing the callings every 3 days.

    If we discount the average player though your argument loses even more weight. Because that means the above average player is so wealthy that the amount of tokens sold each week does not train their collective bank accounts. Because tokens are still being sold right? Which means those gaining the advantages of wealthy through a token are not getting any advantages over those who sell the tokens. Which means nothing but extra zeros in your bank account is earned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    Exactly someone else made that gold, not the person buying the token with IRL money to get that gold. Thus pay 2 win. Yo I can't even, after reading that i feel like im covered in bull poo, gonna go shower now. Props on being a professional shat thrower.
    You win by having gold? It is a micro transaction and not all micro transactions are pay to win. Simply having the gold doesn't allow you to win at anything. It also requires a group of players to offer a boost. Or a group of players to kill trash to earn BoE items. Lets think about a scenario. There are two people Person A and Person B. There is a group of players offering boosts, Boost X. Person A earns money from the AH and offers Boost X gold for a run. Person B buys a token and offers Boost X gold for a run but gets declined because person A paid more.

    What did person B win? Are we going to argue that loosing is not pay to win? The argument you are looking for is the token enables gambling. You can win or lose when you buy it depending on what services people are offering. But the token itself does not enable any kind of win because there is no direct power gain tied to buying a token. It all requires players to offer normal game play services.
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  3. #1083
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Does not matter that it's one step removed. Real money gives an in-game advantage, that is the definition of P2W.
    Yep, this is why I don’t like to play super mario, because it’s just pay to win.
    How you ask? Well this guy plays the game for me and I pay him. Pay(I pay to him) to win(he finishes the game for me)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goat7 View Post
    100% pay to win.

    Anyone who says otherwise is drinking that kool-aid and also I have some really good vehicle engine protection insurance I would like to sell them.

    Anytime you pay money to get ANY advantage over a player who does not pay that money = PAY 2 WIN. If you kool aid drinkers wanna call it PAY 2 ADVANTAGE, go for it. Same shit.
    Exactly. I HATE street fighter because it’s pay to win. I paid Fuji(a Japanese pro player) to play for me.
    I paid him and he won the game for me. Pay to win. P2W 110%
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
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  4. #1084
    Quote Originally Posted by Halfaheart View Post
    If items being bought can be acquired the same way naturally it is not pay to win

    Paying to get an edge? sure. But unless they lock ilvl 250 gear behind a paywall its not p2w. There is no other argument lol
    I dont think thats true.

    FIFA Ultimate Team advertises exactly your argument to say the game is NOT pay to win "because you can get everything without spending money"

    Which is TECHNICALLY true...but not realistic at all.
    It will take YEARS of gameplay to get those things without paying.

    You need to "judge" how inconvinient the "natural way" of getting it is...IMO

  5. #1085
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Not all micro transactions are pay to win. But all "pay to win" transactions are micro transactions. Just like Squares and Rectangles.
    Very simple, if it's sold for real money and isn't cosmetic, it's P2W.

    Lets not get caught up on "win", people. It's paying for any in-game advantage. That's what it means.

  6. #1086
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Very simple, if it's sold for real money and isn't cosmetic, it's P2W.

    Lets not get caught up on "win", people. It's paying for any in-game advantage. That's what it means.
    In addition WoW is still using the old artificial scarcity with vanity items and achievements. You cant even buy valuable mog in this game.

    And there is not even hope for a crack in blizzards direction. They brought classic without vanilla mounts - 16 year old vanity items and they still kept it away.

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  7. #1087
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Very simple, if it's sold for real money and isn't cosmetic, it's P2W.

    Lets not get caught up on "win", people. It's paying for any in-game advantage. That's what it means.
    Well, what is sold for real money, is game-time, not gold.

    So, if you use the description of who the hell it was in the thread, it would be indirect Pay2Win because the game-time is then sold to a player for gold. And if that is a thing, then WoW has been P2W since its existence, for and against ToS.
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  8. #1088
    Not at all, especially when compared to other MMOs.

  9. #1089
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Very simple, if it's sold for real money and isn't cosmetic, it's P2W. Lets not get caught up on "win", people. It's paying for any in-game advantage. That's what it means.
    Wouldn't gold fall under the broad "cosmetic" category though? Since it doesn't provide any direct advantage. If a token is pay to win because of an indirect advantage then wouldn't all cosmetic gear be an advantage? It could allow you to win Trial of Style. Toys would be pay to win since collecting 300 gives you a herb picking mount and that is an advantage over others.

    So is it a link to an advantage or a direct advantage? Gold can be linked to advantages but do not provide a direct advantage themselves.
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  10. #1090
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Very simple, if it's sold for real money and isn't cosmetic, it's P2W.

    Lets not get caught up on "win", people. It's paying for any in-game advantage. That's what it means.
    I disagree because the “advantage” gained from buying WoW tokens is insignificant and won’t help a player win in the game. First off, what us players consider winning varies. Some think winning is having more gold than others, having a high ilvl, getting CE Denathrius or getting R1 gladiator. I can see how someone could buy CE Denathrius with enough gold, but how does that translate into an advantage.

    Simply saying any money spent on non cosmetic items in an in game store item/service is vague. With that definition, most games are P2W and were just lining games up along a spectrum.

    From my years of playing various games that had atrocious P2W systems, there is a more definitive definition of P2W. If the advantage you’re buying provides you with an unobtainable in game advantage over other players who didn’t buy what you bought, then that’s P2W. Another example is when you’re buying an advantage that takes years of grinding to obtain naturally in game.
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  11. #1091
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Very simple, if it's sold for real money and isn't cosmetic, it's P2W.

    Lets not get caught up on "win", people. It's paying for any in-game advantage. That's what it means.
    Pay to Win (To Win the game) comes on different colors and styles, here are the details:

    - Visual Advantage (cosmetics, mounts, pets, etc).
    - PvE Power (Armor, Weapons, Potions, Enchants, etc).
    - PvP Power (Armor/Weapons that makes you superior to other players and gives you an unfair advantage over them, Example: Item level).
    - Achievement Advantage (Paying with gold that you paid with real money, for carries in order to get boss kills that unlock titles or mounts, etc)
    - Economical Advantage (For a regular person it would take them months to get 190k-200k in order to buy whatever they need).
    - Game Time (Instead of paying real money for the Game Time, players used their gold to purchase the Game Time in order to continue playing the game at the same time trading said Gold for Other people Money, in the way of Game Time).

    The only reason @rhorle and other players out there doesn't agree with this, is that they are part of this. They are buyers and providers of WoW Tokens and Gold. So stop wasting time with them, other points on this thread are actually interesting, for example: How Blizzard designed the WoW Token to appeal, less P2W, but still being a big P2W in the end.

  12. #1092
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Pay to Win (To Win the game) comes on different colors and styles, here are the details:
    All but one of the things you list as reasons for pay to win are inherent to the design of the game. The game allows you to buy cosmetics, mounts, pets. It allows you to buy armor, weapons, potions, and enchants. It allows you to buy achievements. Heck Blizzard even encouraged people to be carried to achievements by endorosing Friendship Moose runs.

    The token doesn't enable any of those things and the game wasn't specifically designed for those things once the token was implemented. I don't agree with your claims because they are flawed. It has nothing to do with me making use of tokens. A person that has excess gold would have to be a fool to not turn it into game time. It is weird how you keep trying to make that into an insult.

    Are you that angered that you no longer enjoy the game that you have to invent ways to insult those who do?
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  13. #1093
    Again, don't get caught up on the word "win". Nobody is saying you will get gladiator or beat mythic+25s by spending real money in WoW. It is very simple, you're spending real money to get anything non-cosmetic inside the game.

    Buying cosmetics is not typically called P2W. The in-game advantage is key to the distinction, and cosmetics are by definition, well, just cosmetic.

  14. #1094
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    All but one of the things you list as reasons for pay to win are inherent to the design of the game. The game allows you to buy cosmetics, mounts, pets. It allows you to buy armor, weapons, potions, and enchants. It allows you to buy achievements. Heck Blizzard even encouraged people to be carried to achievements by endorosing Friendship Moose runs.

    The token doesn't enable any of those things and the game wasn't specifically designed for those things once the token was implemented. I don't agree with your claims because they are flawed. It has nothing to do with me making use of tokens. A person that has excess gold would have to be a fool to not turn it into game time. It is weird how you keep trying to make that into an insult.

    Are you that angered that you no longer enjoy the game that you have to invent ways to insult those who do?
    Is buying Gold for Money....simple as that. Economical advantage that generate other ways to win the game. P2W right there...

  15. #1095
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Pay to Win (To Win the game) comes on different colors and styles, here are the details:

    - Visual Advantage (cosmetics, mounts, pets, etc).
    - PvE Power (Armor, Weapons, Potions, Enchants, etc).
    - PvP Power (Armor/Weapons that makes you superior to other players and gives you an unfair advantage over them, Example: Item level).
    - Achievement Advantage (Paying with gold that you paid with real money, for carries in order to get boss kills that unlock titles or mounts, etc)
    - Economical Advantage (For a regular person it would take them months to get 190k-200k in order to buy whatever they need).
    - Game Time (Instead of paying real money for the Game Time, players used their gold to purchase the Game Time in order to continue playing the game at the same time trading said Gold for Other people Money, in the way of Game Time).

    The only reason @rhorle and other players out there doesn't agree with this, is that they are part of this. They are buyers and providers of WoW Tokens and Gold. So stop wasting time with them, other points on this thread are actually interesting, for example: How Blizzard designed the WoW Token to appeal, less P2W, but still being a big P2W in the end.
    Ah, so we've gone to the section claiming that if you have game-time it is now winning?

    At least we can all feel like winners.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Again, don't get caught up on the word "win". Nobody is saying you will get gladiator or beat mythic+25s by spending real money in WoW. It is very simple, you're spending real money to get anything non-cosmetic inside the game.

    Buying cosmetics is not typically called P2W. The in-game advantage is key to the distinction, and cosmetics are by definition, well, just cosmetic.
    First time I've heard anyone talk about "Visual advantage"..
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  16. #1096
    I think what all of it comes down to is that 50% of the player base is against microtransactions in mmorpgs and and the other 50% are indifferent.

    the answer is simple.

  17. #1097
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Again, don't get caught up on the word "win". Nobody is saying you will get gladiator or beat mythic+25s by spending real money in WoW. It is very simple, you're spending real money to get anything non-cosmetic inside the game.

    Buying cosmetics is not typically called P2W. The in-game advantage is key to the distinction, and cosmetics are by definition, well, just cosmetic.
    Gold pays you everything in WoW. Including PvE and PvP content. Maybe Blizzard is not saying: "Hey dude, pay for this Token and you will get PvP and PvE content progress", but in the end, it servers that means. Selling Gold for Real money, so you can enter the game and use that money to pay what ever you want. Is still Pay to Win, even if Blizzard doesn't "Guarantee" that. The players provide that "WIN" with your gold, and Blizzard turn the eye elsewhere.

    For me it sounds like Blizzard just fool around with this, by "Pretending" that selling GOLD, is not going to cause that behavior, but it does...And once again, is a Pay To Win, provided by Blizzard first action of "Selling WoW Tokens for real money, and you get fake currency for it".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rinnegan2 View Post
    I think what all of it comes down to is that 50% of the player base is against microtransactions in mmorpgs and and the other 50% are indifferent.

    the answer is simple.
    They hate ESO because of Crown Crates...."OMG, ESO is so full of microtransactions, Thanks god i play WoW where we dont have that crap....blah...blah...blah..", but in the end, these players are using "Real Money" to buy WoW Tokens, buy gold and pay with gold to win the game = Pay To Win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Ah, so we've gone to the section claiming that if you have game-time it is now winning?

    At least we can all feel like winners.

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    First time I've heard anyone talk about "Visual advantage"..
    Game Time brought with Gold = Win, because i didnt had to pay Real money for it, other guy paid it for me. Is like the biggest lie, people in WoW love to say. "I'm saving tons of bucks using gold instead of Real Money", but in the end, they support the "Pay To Win" for the other guy who paid for the Token and got like 200k for it. Easy gold for easy AH items + carries + PvP and PvE wins paid with gold.

    Visual advantage is the biggest Pay to Win that most game companies does. You look better than anyone else, because i paid real money to look this good = Win

  18. #1098
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    They hate ESO because of Crown Crates...."OMG, ESO is so full of microtransactions, Thanks god i play WoW where we dont have that crap....blah...blah...blah..", but in the end, these players are using "Real Money" to buy WoW Tokens, buy gold and pay with gold to win the game = Pay To Win.
    World of Warcraft store is not even a fraction of the ESO store. WoW has, if we follow the thread, 2 P2W options, Direct = Boost, and Indirect = token/TCG.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Game Time brought with Gold = Win, because i didnt had to pay Real money for it, other guy paid it for me. Is like the biggest lie, people in WoW love to say. "I'm saving tons of bucks using gold instead of Real Money", but in the end, they support the "Pay To Win" for the other guy who paid for the Token and got like 200k for it. Easy gold for easy AH items + carries + PvP and PvE wins paid with gold.
    So, let me get this straight, a person who has no other way of getting game-time than with the gold for a token, is P2W? So, it is P2W to not have access to real life funds for your game? Or don't have the right payment options?

    Hey, let's go deeper, it is Pay2Win to have a subscription because the trial accounts can't get any of the stuff we have because some might not be able to afford playing the game, or have access to the right tools to pay for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Visual advantage is the biggest Pay to Win that most game companies does. You look better than anyone else, because i paid real money to look this good = Win
    By this notion, you could say, getting the next expansion is Pay2Win, because you'll look great in the gear from it while others might not have access to it?

    Collector's Editions are then of course Pay2Win, and so are the digital bundles, boost, token, mounts, pets, transmogs, and oh yeah, game-time. You know, services are also Pay2Win, not everyone can just move their characters, or change race, or faction.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2021-06-08 at 07:18 PM.
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  19. #1099
    It most certainly is not.

  20. #1100
    Quote Originally Posted by Temp name View Post
    But what does paying RL money get you that someone who doesn't can't get?
    Because gold is available to earn in-game, you don't need token for it
    Time. It saves you time. The most valuable resource in our life.

    We discuss if something is P2W, without clarification about what is considered a win in WoW, or MMOs in general. So many people consider that "win" is only killing other players (wPvP or Arenas/BGs). But in a game where PvP realms where removed, and it always was PvE oriented, that aspect is not major anymore. People farm the best equipment, just to have it and to show off, or to farm the next best equipped. Also cosmetics, play a big role for many players.
    So for me, it is not a matter of what is P2W, but what we want. How we will enjoy the game more.

    For me, anything bought with real money, is not accepted. It ruins the immersion in a fantasy game. And it isn’t fair.
    I also hate any kind of boosting for skipping content. Blizzard should make it impossible.

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