Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[rhorle]

15 x 2500g = 37,500g. Twice in a week = 75,000g in a week, making roughly HALF of a token.

It is 1.5k to 2.5k per calling. There is a new calling each day. There are 7 days in a week. 15x1,500=22,500 or 15x2,500=37,500 per day. 22,500x7=157,500 or 37,500x7=262,500 per week.

The gold earned is per calling not per set of calling. Since you can store up to 3 callings at a time you don't have to do all 15 characters each day. The start of the rotation will have you miss out on some callings by delaying some of the 15 characters. But if you work on 5 the first day, 5 the second, and 5 the third day you will be able to complete 3 callings on each of those sets. Instead of having to do 15 the first day, 15 the second day, and 15 the third day. You could do all 15 the first day and be done for 3 days as well. There are lots of ways to break it up so it isn't as burdensome as 15 characters doing 3 callings in one day.

[Lochton]

If god gives us time, some day we will see countries like Netherlands or China, Japan, etc. Banning or putting strong laws against this type of behaviors from the gaming companies. P2W no only cause unfair balance to the games, it also create an unhealthy gaming community, and just like they banned "Loot Boxes" for being nothing more than just gambling...

Maybe some day they will take a look on how these games operate, call it WoW, ESO, FinalFantasy, etc, and see that most of the game play is nothing more than just gambling.

But back to P2W, WoW is as bad as ESO with his Crown Crates. WoW Tokens is a real scheme.

The what? The only gambling WoW has from the developer is RNG and TCG packs (there are still a few), unlike other MMO's with loot boxes and the likes. Doubt there will be a ban on a game offering a service, and then if they were to once more, they would have hours of arguments as well, for then it will be back to the argument of direct, indirect, is looking pretty a win, is having real money a win, is having time a win, is saving time a win, is having the know-how to earn gold a win, is it a P2W feature to earn gold from a person who might've purchased a service sometime in the past, and so on.

[Crimson Spears]

For me, "Pay to Win" (P2W) has always required that a developer or publisher have a market that accepts actual real-world currency for statistical in-game advantages such as directly purchasing gear, consumables that grant temporary or permanent power, and/or direct advantages via shortcuts that confer similar advantages (e.g. purchasing skill ranks or talent points). In that sense I don't consider mounts, xmog, or toys to be P2W elements because none of those things can really be construed as winning. One epic mount is the same as every other epic mount, toys have no purpose insofar as in-game benefits go, and xmog is purely cosmetic and also confers no advantages.

Being able to buy gold via the token does sort of fall into the realm of P2W, but it is mitigated somewhat in the context of WoW by gold being a rather ubiquitous resource. I don't personally consider saving *time* to be P2W, as it were, but I recognize that's a purely subjective stance. I consider the idea of "winning" in WoW to be entirely confined to a given end-game scenario (e.g. raiding, Mythic+, max-level PvP, etc.) and so I don't consider leveling boosts to be P2W. I would say WoW's version of P2W is confined solely to using real-world money to buy gold, and then to turn around and use that gold to buy BoE epics on the AH - and that would qualify as P2W by my metric, but I would say that for what it is it's pretty low-key and less than game-breaking, as it were.

I mean how do you reconcile buying CE or Glad with that then. While admittedly limited to whales this market does exist and it exists via the token existing. Buying gold in those quantities tend to get the attention of blizzard or at least did in the past.

[Lochton]

You are not forced to do it, since the game already provide the means with normal gold to do it. Bank space in WoW gives you power?. Nop.

So, a person subscribed and gains a bonus is not pay2win because you can buy the perks with gold.

but...

a person gets game-time from the game with gold they can earn in the game, which is apparently P2W. Everyone can earn gold in the game, everyone can get game-time in the game.

funny...

The argument for subscription benefits in ArcheAge was called P2W.

Wrong, I'm not. Care to explain why im a P2W'er?

Funny. I believe you misread my line of text. Basically, you (the person) flags a person for being a P2W'er because they enjoy the game without using a credit card.

And you won a high level character, that other people would have to work for it. That is P2W. You paid in the WoW store for the "Sword of a thousand truths"...that is P2W (I know it doesnt exist, just an example)

But you are not getting a high-level character? And the boost is a service, you said so yourself.

Service and Purchases are Ok. You paid a Race Change, is completely ok, it doesnt provide any advantage. You paid for a mount, is ok, that mount has always been sold by real money.

Again, you brought a "visual advantage" on the table, that mount is something someone in-game might not be able to get unless credit card or getting a token. So in your example, someone buying the mount with a credit card is okay but if someone buys it with a converted token, the SAME MOUNT is P2W.

Again, participate in P2W WoW token is P2W. Simple as that. I no longer play WoW. Just here for the Forums.

So, by your standards, WoW has been Pay2Win its whole existence and you have been part of facilitating that Pay2Win mentality, not to mention all MMO's are P2W either directly or indirectly.

[TheRevenantHero]

You are not forced to do it, since the game already provide the means with normal gold to do it. Bank space in WoW gives you power?. Nop.

Wrong, I'm not. Care to explain why im a P2W'er?

And you won a high level character, that other people would have to work for it. That is P2W. You paid in the WoW store for the "Sword of a thousand truths"...that is P2W (I know it doesnt exist, just an example)

Service and Purchases are Ok. You paid a Race Change, is completely ok, it doesnt provide any advantage. You paid for a mount, is ok, that mount has always been sold by real money.

Again, participate in P2W WoW token is P2W. Simple as that. I no longer play WoW. Just here for the Forums.

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Maybe for you....But for other people its "eye candy".

I dont need a Rolex, but people love to waste tons of money on them....its up to them.

It's not an advantage though. So therefore it's not p2w.

[Lochton]

Once again, that applies to you. Is easy for you to buy it. Maybe you played MOP and got it, maybe you make gold easy because you know how to do it. Other people dont.... But other people are going to buy a Token just to buy that mount. Simple as that...

So, what you're saying is, I have my advantage of having played the content while others didn't, and now have to/want to earn gold to get the mount but if they get the mount, it is P2W?

TCG is collector item. Something that you had to purchase at a store, get a "loot card" and back then....people used to sell the card code for gold or real money. Now that is something different.

If the token is P2W, then TCG loot was exclusive P2W.

Indirect P2W Token: Sold by Blizzard directly -> Delivered in-game -> Post on the Auction -> Sell as game-time -> Get paid gold.
Indirect P2W TCG: Commissioned by Blizzard directly -> Printed, advertised, and packaged by supplier -> Sold to vendor -> Sold to player -> Gambling for a chance of a loot card -> More gambling for a chance of a tradeable loot card -> Post on auction -> Sell -> Get paid gold.

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What about the "coin" for extra loot from raid...or even your regular loot chances from Dungeons and Raids....that is not RNG=Gambling?. If you put "Luck" in a game, is a gambling game my friend.

Did you miss it? Did I not write RNG? Pretty sure I wrote RNG, which is what you are talking about now.

I dont see chess being a gambling game, is strategy.

Now, from my knowledge, there is gambling in chess, trust me, you can earn quite a lot on that.

Or Starcraft

There's gambling with StarCraft too.

GTAV single player is just to play a story.

GTA V is a single-player, there still is low levels of RNG.

Skyrim has some of it, same with other games with "chances" on it. But that is another topic....

All games have RNG almost.

P2W is the problem here...

Well, in this post, random factors of any sort were your problem.

[Aucald]

I mean how do you reconcile buying CE or Glad with that then. While admittedly limited to whales this market does exist and it exists via the token existing. Buying gold in those quantities tend to get the attention of blizzard or at least did in the past.

Buying things from other players, in my view, posits a black or gray market that's beyond services provided by Blizzard or its subsidiaries. In that sense, P2W has always and will continue to exist, as long as players can pay other players do the work for them or what have you. So that is P2W, but it's not P2W that is endorsed, sanctioned, or provided by Blizzard. The token doesn't even really matter in this context, as you could just as easily facilitate those services via direct payments (and that is how it used to be done). In that sense, the token is a safer alternative for players, but it doesn't change the black market's nature or presence.

[arkanon]

It is 1.5k to 2.5k per calling. There is a new calling each day. There are 7 days in a week. 15x1,500=22,500 or 15x2,500=37,500 per day. 22,500x7=157,500 or 37,500x7=262,500 per week.

The gold earned is per calling not per set of calling. Since you can store up to 3 callings at a time you don't have to do all 15 characters each day. The start of the rotation will have you miss out on some callings by delaying some of the 15 characters. But if you work on 5 the first day, 5 the second, and 5 the third day you will be able to complete 3 callings on each of those sets. Instead of having to do 15 the first day, 15 the second day, and 15 the third day. You could do all 15 the first day and be done for 3 days as well. There are lots of ways to break it up so it isn't as burdensome as 15 characters doing 3 callings in one day.

So what you are confirming is that for the minor inconvenience of 5-15 hours of gameplay per day, you could eventually make enough to buy a token? Pft, EASY!

[rhorle]

So what you are confirming is that for the minor inconvenience of 5-15 hours of gameplay per day, you could eventually make enough to buy a token? Pft, EASY!

Have you played the game recently? In what world does it take you 5-15 hours per day to do 3 or 4 world quests 5 or 15 times per day? It was pretty easy to clear the 11 or so Anima quests up each day in an hour of play. Even opening chests can work towards requirements on some callings to make it even faster. Like I said it isn't as easy as mission tables from garrisons and order halls but is still relatively easy once the characters are leveled. As it only takes 3-5 world quests to complete a calling.

[arkanon]

Have you played the game recently? In what world does it take you 5-15 hours per day to do 3 or 4 world quests 5 or 15 times per day? It was pretty easy to clear the 11 or so Anima quests up each day in an hour of play. Even opening chests can work towards requirements on some callings to make it even faster. Like I said it isn't as easy as mission tables from garrisons and order halls but is still relatively easy once the characters are leveled. As it only takes 3-5 world quests to complete a calling.

20 mins per calling, averaged out, including travel time, collecting and handing in, since 12-13 of these max level characters would be in questing items. 15 - 45 callings per day, with 20 mins per calling is 5-15 hours per day of solid gameplay.

You are DESPERATELY trying to present the maximum outcome, but constantly using the MINIMUM time factor. For the average player, on a 160 ilvl character, including travel, would take 20 mins, if not much more. 20 mins is actually EXTREMELY generous.

Lets not also forget the token is quickly closing in on 200,000G

[rhorle]

20 mins per calling, averaged out, including travel time, collecting and handing in, since 12-13 of these max level characters would be in questing items. 15 - 45 callings per day, with 20 mins per calling is 5-15 hours per day of solid gameplay. You are DESPERATELY trying to present the maximum outcome, but constantly using the MINIMUM time factor. For the average player, on a 160 ilvl character, including travel, would take 20 mins, if not much more. 20 mins is actually EXTREMELY generous.

You don't need to do 45 callings per day though and that is over 3 days time. 20 mins is also generous for some even with travel time. It takes less then 5 mins of travel go from the furthest flightpath in any zone to the furthest in another zone. I am not desperately trying to present anything. Stop assigning emotion to something just because you feel the need to triumph.

I provided one relatively easy way to earn enough per week to gain a token. There are other ways to supplement those numbers to need reduced characters. Mission tables can still provide a decent cash flow between materials and runes. Fish still sell for 15-20g each on my sever and one fish mission gives you 10-20 or something like that. Crystals from WQ's or mission table add a few hundred gold. Things add up. It is no where as easy as past expansions but it also isn't that difficult of a thing to do.

Twenty minutes is also not extremely generous. This is why I asked you if you have recently played the game? Maybe you just are not good at managing your time.

[Cuppy]

Have you played the game recently? In what world does it take you 5-15 hours per day to do 3 or 4 world quests 5 or 15 times per day? It was pretty easy to clear the 11 or so Anima quests up each day in an hour of play. Even opening chests can work towards requirements on some callings to make it even faster. Like I said it isn't as easy as mission tables from garrisons and order halls but is still relatively easy once the characters are leveled. As it only takes 3-5 world quests to complete a calling.

Or, you can que to a selected normal dungeons (say calling is "defend revendreth" for example) Finish that normal dungeon and it's done. Que as tank and dungeon insta pops, it's 15 minutes and done.
3 world quests? Flying from say Oribos to Ardenweald and walk to petbattle quest, 4 minutes, deal with it and walk the next 2 quests, 15 mins max = 20 minutes total. 3 callings an hour, maybe 1,5.
But yeah, I'm with you here. AND, command table also gives out gold missions. Download the app and you don't even need to log to wow.

I dont see chess being a gambling game, is strategy. Or Starcraft....GTAV single player is just to play a story. Skyrim has some of it, same with other games with "chances" on it. But that is another topic....
P2W is the problem here...

Dude, I sell chess boosting. Not joking. You know the game online-chess? You have rank 1-50 depending how much you win, and you get a medal for representing your rank. I sell the boosts. It's pay to win my friend, this chess game
Same with starcraft, I've boosted countless accounts to master and grandmaster ranks. People pay me for it. Pay. Me. For. Winning. For. Them. It's pay to win.
Same goes with GTA, especially the online part. I've finished the single player campaign for around 50 people, they couldn't finish it because they lacked the skill, so I did it for them and they paid me money, real life money (one guy also gave me a helicopter in game). Pay to win game bro.
Don't even get me started on skyrim, man! Have you played the game yourself? Skyrim I mean? Do you know Skuldafn? It's a tough battle and I know many people who couldn't get pass him. They paid me, and I did it for them. Also got a few Karstaag boosts (paid with real money too) and not joking here, one guy couldn't get past Ahzidal, so he contacted me and paid me to help him. Skyrim is the same shit as the previous mentioned, pay to win 100%

[rhorle]

Back in BFA, this mount "Created and Priced by Blizzard", created a huge change in the AH market. The prices went up, the demand for Tokens went up back then. And the price of the token went up, just like right now the Token is 190k in less than a few months, since back then, it used to cost 150k around December 2020.

https://wowtokenprices.com/extended-history

You have to put in the date ranges as you can't link to historical data. But the token prices did not drastically change just because the AH mount existed. Token prices went down for BfA from the Legion highs and have followed a similar track in prices as Shadowlands. Buying the Brutosaur mount from tokens was like $480. Sure some people likely did that but I would wager a large sum of money that most earned with out purchasing a single token.

[Mysterymask]

Don't even get me started on skyrim, man! Have you played the game yourself? Skyrim I mean? Do you know Skuldafn? It's a tough battle and I know many people who couldn't get pass him. They paid me, and I did it for them. Also got a few Karstaag boosts (paid with real money too) and not joking here, one guy couldn't get past Ahzidal, so he contacted me and paid me to help him. Skyrim is the same shit as the previous mentioned, pay to win 100%

This makes me sad since trainers are free and everywhere

Hell Skyrim has fucking CONSOLE COMMANDS

[sam86]

But technically, gold has had a value before the token, just hidden behind exclusive gambling, or if breaking the ToS, it had a set value by 3rd party?

you just answered urself, it was illegal, u can find a price for to kill someone using a hitman on darkweb, that doesn't make killing a human legal or has an official price
so until they make hitman work actual legal and government approved, it will always be illegal and not encouraged to deal with, same for wow gold pre-token era, but of course Bobby Kodick greediest CEO in usa gaming history can't accept that

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https://wowtokenprices.com/extended-history

You have to put in the date ranges as you can't link to historical data. But the token prices did not drastically change just because the AH mount existed. Token prices went down for BfA from the Legion highs and have followed a similar track in prices as Shadowlands. Buying the Brutosaur mount from tokens was like $480. Sure some people likely did that but I would wager a large sum of money that most earned with out purchasing a single token.

a LOT of ppl bought last few thousands of gold with tokens, no one bought mount purely by tokens but almost no one bought it purely farming too, anyone who basically was missing lower than 1 million in last week just bought a couple of tokens to get that mount, that simple
it is gambling addiction 101 and blizz abuse that like any shit chinese company making crap mobile games

[rhorle]

a LOT of ppl bought last few thousands of gold with tokens, no one bought mount purely by tokens but almost no one bought it purely farming too, anyone who basically was missing lower than 1 million in last week just bought a couple of tokens to get that mount, that simple
it is gambling addiction 101 and blizz abuse that like any shit chinese company making crap mobile games

That isn't gambling. Spending money on a 100% guarantee is not gambling. That type of exaggeration puts your other statistics into doubt as you have no one of proving how many people bought tokens for their mounts. It is also a safe bet that some people did buy their mount purely by farming. You so people post here, on reddit, and other wow fan sites about their gold often enough to know that plenty had more then 5 million and still do.

[Cuppy]

That is completely different, from what WoW is doing. The game company that created the Chess game doesnt have a Credit card slot right there to accept money...so, its not the same.

Errr... you dont know what you’re talking about.
Ever heard of chess piece customization? You know some play with original pieces, some have a theme set.. they even sell these sets in physical chess boards. I find it repulsive you claim a star wars themed set made with cnc machine is not better looking than a wooden piece of a shitboard

[Appelgren]

*wall of opinions stated as facts removed from quote*

But is actually a P2W

Agree to disagree

[Cuppy]

This makes me sad since trainers are free and everywhere

Hell Skyrim has fucking CONSOLE COMMANDS

Yep. Pay to win my friend

[rhorle]

Ding ding ding....And the reason is price and demand. Too many people selling Tokens (price goes down). Why? Too many people trying to get that mount, by selling Tokens

You said token prices went up though. And the prices dropped prior to the launch of BfA and the existence of the Auction House mount. So which is it prices went down or prices went up? You can't argue both ways.

The prices went up, the demand for Tokens went up back then. And the price of the token went up, just like right now the Token is 190k in less than a few months, since back then, it used to cost 150k around December 2020.