1. #1121
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    First time I've heard anyone talk about "Visual advantage"..
    That may be the first time anyone has ever called cosmetics P2W in the history of the world, yeah. Bizarre stuff.

  2. #1122
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    FEEL THE WRATH OF MY SPANNER!!
    Posts
    33,688
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Get a job. Or stay on the game feeding this poor and unfair P2W and call it "fair", because you cant pay for the game because you are broke or maybe you are cheap, but in the end, the guy that got your gold is winning the game, thanks to you and you are still on those subs numbers helping Blizzard say: "My game is doing great" to his investors.
    Soooo, I understood you correctly. You're saying that human beings cannot have a tough life. If they cannot afford a subscription with real money, they do not work. They cannot enjoy their game because they MUST pay for it with real money because else it is.. unfair for people who pay real money? Some people scrape by with what they can, and a game that can earn itself, is a bliss to some, for they can save those dollars for something else without going into full despair because some guy with a hate boner believes they do not deserve to play the game if they cannot pay with real money.

    What game do you hide in? For all MMO's are P2W by your standards, and all MMO players support P2W by your standards, either by doing business, buying items, admiring items, touching them, or working with people who might've made a purchase some time ago..

    And as you seem to fit to flag so many, and so much, then why did you ever play WoW in the first place, since WoW has been indirectly pay2win since day one?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Cosmetics aren't p2w. So anyone who says it is? They're arguing for the sake of arguing because they're 100% wrong. The only clear cut example of p2w in WoW is the character boost.
    Whelp, Mr. Necrosaro believes that cosmetics are a "visual advantage".

    And I've already said, that I'd gladly agree that a boost is a minor form of P2W because you save time. It is funny that Necrosaro123 does not see the boost as P2W when he/she sees so much Pay2Win in the existence of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    That may be the first time anyone has ever called cosmetics P2W in the history of the world, yeah. Bizarre stuff.
    Yup, I was baffled as well when I saw that..
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  3. #1123
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Boost does not bring you to "endgame".
    But by your example, even if a player had all the gold by their own work, it is P2W because someone, somewhere, who sold you something, or boosted you, or grouped with you, got game-time, or gold from a token.


    When did you last look and compared the two stores? As well, ESO has its toxic people too, plenty of them.

    The token might open hell for you, but it opens heaven for others. "OH NO, HE GOT GOLD!?" - "OH NO, HE'S GONNA GET BOOSTED!?", "OH NO, HE HAS A CHANCE TO ENJOY HIS GAME?!" - "OH NO, HE CAN ACTUALLY BUY THE EXPANSION FOR HIS HARD-EARNED GOLD AND NOT A CREDIT CARD?!"


    Actually, everyone with the extra money has the ability to help another player with game-time and earn some gold from it. Unless you expect that people just buy game-time for each other out of good heart only? And if we use your example again, anyone that touches gold in WoW, is supporting P2W, even if they do not believe so, because one of those digital strands of code could've been part of a token transaction, or earned by someone with subscription thanks to the token.


    So, an inclusive method to give everyone a chance to enjoy the game without actually going bust in real life is P2W, gotcha.


    Any gold you may have used, or earned in WoW, is Pay2Win because it could've been paid/bought by someone who had interaction with token sales or purchases, or who might've helped someone who has game-time from the token, or boosted someone who had gold from token sales, or played with friends who managed to finally buy the newest expansion with gold because they did not have real money to buy it, is also P2W.
    All your points only makes it clear that you use and take advantage of the P2W method called "WoW Tokens".

    Is completely ok if you use it because:
    A) You don't want to pay for the Game Time
    B) You need fast gold with low time investment
    C) You want to get an advantage over other players in order to unlock those achievements in time, before the next expansion is available.

    But please...Don't try to change my mind, about this being a P2W scheme, because is still the best P2W scheme ever created by a game industry.

  4. #1124
    Yes clearly the ability to buy tokens to buy gear is pay to win.

    I don't understand why there is a 60 page topic about such an inconfusable and clear thing.

    People who argue it's not p2w are delusional.

  5. #1125
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Soooo, I understood you correctly. You're saying that human beings cannot have a tough life. If they cannot afford a subscription with real money, they do not work. They cannot enjoy their game because they MUST pay for it with real money because else it is.. unfair for people who pay real money? Some people scrape by with what they can, and a game that can earn itself, is a bliss to some, for they can save those dollars for something else without going into full despair because some guy with a hate boner believes they do not deserve to play the game if they cannot pay with real money.

    What game do you hide in? For all MMO's are P2W by your standards, and all MMO players support P2W by your standards, either by doing business, buying items, admiring items, touching them, or working with people who might've made a purchase some time ago..

    And as you seem to fit to flag so many, and so much, then why did you ever play WoW in the first place, since WoW has been indirectly pay2win since day one?

    - - - Updated - - -


    Whelp, Mr. Necrosaro believes that cosmetics are a "visual advantage".

    And I've already said, that I'd gladly agree that a boost is a minor form of P2W because you save time. It is funny that Necrosaro123 does not see the boost as P2W when he/she sees so much Pay2Win in the existence of the game.


    Yup, I was baffled as well when I saw that..
    Also dont turn into a drama queen on that first point.

    Mr. Necrosaro believes that using WoW Tokens to buy "Transmog, Mounts, Pets...etc" with said gold, is P2W.

    Cosmetic on the store, are not P2W.

  6. #1126
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    37,022
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post


    The only person reaching is you. And advantage is an advantage no matter how much you try to trivialize it. Just because you're saying it only take 16 hours to do doesn't mean it's not paying money to buy player power.

    But it's clear you're not interested in being logical or honest about this discussion considering your use of ad hominem.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Calling it a service does nothing but try to avoid saying it's not p2w. Because by that logic, p2w doesn't exist because we can just call it all a service and therefore not p2w.
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Get a job. Or stay on the game feeding this poor and unfair P2W and call it "fair", because you cant pay for the game because you are broke or maybe you are cheap, but in the end, the guy that got your gold is winning the game, thanks to you and you are still on those subs numbers helping Blizzard say: "My game is doing great" to his investors.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Then keep supporting this Pay to Win scheme, and keep defending it, even when you know its a wrong model for a Gaming Company. No wonder why they give those huge bonus to CEOs.

    From me, I dont like it at all. Not even if i get Game Time from it. It's not free, it provide an unfair advantage to the WoW Token seller in terms of Economical advantage, and create a more poorly balance gameplay for others.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Is P2W fair to you? Is it Ok to you?

    If you think is good, then its up to you....
    Well then honeybunnies - what if I said..."Great...you convinced me...the game is pay to win"?

    Then what? All your dramatic "keep on defending it" - what is it worth? I play the game...and it is fine to me. My toons are ilv 200...I have three boosts from my CEs that I didn't use..so even your piss poor "argument" how CEs are "P2W" don't apply to me. I bought AoC two times...I think...yay me...I won. I am such a bad person.

    And you? You think you have some moral high ground? Well...one thing I don't see in your replies is this...a reply to the question that I keep on asking:

    Do you guys actually still play the game?
    That is the one thing you just skirt around. The one thing you don't answer. Because boy...if you guys play this game and still give Blizzard your money...you have some serious questions to answer to. I mean...if p2W is such a bad bad thing as you try and keep telling us over 50 pages and over 1100 replies.

    ...and I am baffled how you can still attack me if you pay and play.
    Last edited by det; 2021-06-08 at 08:29 PM.

  7. #1127
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Also dont turn into a drama queen on that first point.

    Mr. Necrosaro believes that using WoW Tokens to buy "Transmog, Mounts, Pets...etc" with said gold, is P2W.

    Cosmetic on the store, are not P2W.
    Buying mounts and transmog isn't pay to win. Even if you are using tokens to do it. Using the tokens to buy gear and boosts through raids/mythic dungeons? Absolutely indirect p2w.

  8. #1128
    Quote Originally Posted by P for Pancetta View Post
    Yes clearly the ability to buy tokens to buy gear is pay to win.

    I don't understand why there is a 60 page topic about such an unconfutable and clear thing.

    People who argue it's not p2w are delusional.
    Yes, you are right. So i'm going to stop right here for now. Since is clear that this discussion is more with people who are using this P2W scheme in order to avoid paying USD on Game Time. But that is ok, its their time and gold they are selling to other player so he/she can win the game.

    Boosts are P2W too. 16hrs or less, is still a Time advantage.

    WoW Token gold that provide all kind of advantages like Visual, Economic, Progression in the game, Time, etc. Is P2W too.

  9. #1129
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Well then honeybunnies - what if I said..."Great...you convinced me...the game is pay to win"?

    Then what? All your dramatic "keep on defending it" - what is it worth? I play the game...and it is fine to me. My toons are ilv 200...I have three boosts from my CEs that I didn't use..so even your piss poor "argument" how CEs are "P2W" don't apply to me. I bought AoC two times...I think...yay me...I won. I am such a bad person.

    And you? You think you have some moral high ground? Well...one thing I don't see in your replies is this...a reply to the question that I keep on asking:

    Do you guys actually still play the game?
    That is the one thing you just skirt around. The one thing you don't answer. Because boy...if you guys play this game and still give Blizzard your money...you have some serious questions to answer to.

    ...and I am baffled how you can still attack me if you pay and play.
    "this doesn't apply to me so therefore it's not p2w" is hands down the most asinine comment I have seen so far in this thread.

  10. #1130
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Buying mounts and transmog isn't pay to win. Even if you are using tokens to do it. Using the tokens to buy gear and boosts through raids/mythic dungeons? Absolutely indirect p2w.
    Mounts, transmog and other Visual advantages, specially super rare mounts, transmog etc. Is an advantage to win vs other players. Is P2W.

    My work here is done for now. I have things to do....

  11. #1131
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Mounts, transmog and other Visual advantages, specially super rare mounts, transmog etc. Is an advantage to win vs other players. Is P2W.
    No it's not. There is no fucking advantage because you're not buying player power. Mounts/pets/transmog being bought are NOT an advantage. Are you stronger than another player with those items? Absolutely not.

  12. #1132
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    The forums
    Posts
    37,022
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    "this doesn't apply to me so therefore it's not p2w" is hands down the most asinine comment I have seen so far in this thread.
    So when will you answer if you actually still play the game? Because YOUR definition of p2W NOt applying to me is the most natural thing. Who died and made you the guy to decide what is P2W and what is not.

    And if you quit...I'd like to know out of curiosity what keeps you up all night on your crusade against WoW?

    Also I love it how you two guys who were up in arms against me are also now fighting against each other about the definition of p2w...it is actually priceless.

    With this I am also out of this.....before I wake up in the morning to some infraction about..something.

    But I certainly will be back to check if any of you finally owned up if they still pay Blizzard for this bad...bad and morally highly corrupt P2W game.
    Last edited by det; 2021-06-08 at 08:35 PM.

  13. #1133
    No its not.. Anyone can make gold.

    Besides, goldfarmers make way more gold than the average player is willing to buy tokens for.
    Its pretty rare to see average players buy 25tokens (Thats 500euro, to buy 1 mount)

    On my server you can get around 2 boost, for one token.. Thats 2 tokens a month, just to get the weekly done.
    So 40euro extra a month, for content which is expected for average players to achieve anyway.


    Having the WoW token is NOT pay to win, because;

    1. You can easily make the tokens worth of gold in a week. So there is no real incentive to buy gold.
    2. There will always be gold sellers, farming insane amounts of gold and selling on sketchy websites.

  14. #1134
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Again, don't get caught up on the word "win". Nobody is saying you will get gladiator or beat mythic+25s by spending real money in WoW. It is very simple, you're spending real money to get anything non-cosmetic inside the game. Buying cosmetics is not typically called P2W. The in-game advantage is key to the distinction, and cosmetics are by definition, well, just cosmetic.
    But the word win is the main factor here. You say cosmetics are just cosmetic but I outlined cases where they were not just cosmetic and offered a possible advantage. Yet you dismiss by saying the word win isn't important. It is easy to say you are correct when you ignore irrefutable proof of flaws in your argument.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #1135
    Quote Originally Posted by P for Pancetta View Post
    Yes clearly the ability to buy tokens to buy gear is pay to win.

    I don't understand why there is a 60 page topic about such an inconfusable and clear thing.

    People who argue it's not p2w are delusional.
    From skimming the thread, it looks like a lot of people are getting caught up on the word "win", like P2W means you're buying gladiator or mythic raid loot. I tried to disabuse them of that but you know, it's the internet.

    @rhorle: Sorry, I must have missed your post. Which cosmetics offer an in-game advantage? If you point to (for example) a usable item that makes you as short as a gnome so you're harder to see in PvP, I wouldn't classify that as cosmetics and it would count as P2W to me.

  16. #1136
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    From skimming the thread, it looks like a lot of people are getting caught up on the word "win", like P2W means you're buying gladiator or mythic raid loot. I tried to disabuse them of that but you know, it's the internet.
    Because it's the Win part that is important. It doesn't matter what anyone else here think when the definition is that you buy advantages that trumps skill or time. Like, buying abilities or spells no one else can use unless they buy them.

    Nothing in WoW is P2W by definion. People can create their own definition of the word if they'd like, but that doesn't really make them right except within their own reality with their own personal defintion of the word.

    And if they hate P2W and WoW is P2W according to them, just log out of MMO-champ and quit WoW lol.

  17. #1137
    Quote Originally Posted by Askyl View Post
    Because it's the Win part that is important. It doesn't matter what anyone else here think when the definition is that you buy advantages that trumps skill or time. Like, buying abilities or spells no one else can use unless they buy them.

    Nothing in WoW is P2W by definion. People can create their own definition of the word if they'd like, but that doesn't really make them right except within their own reality with their own personal defintion of the word.

    And if they hate P2W and WoW is P2W according to them, just log out of MMO-champ and quit WoW lol.
    You can't just skip 50 levels of content in WoW without spending money. therefore, WoW is p2w because you are spending real money to purchase player power and are gaining an advantage over players NOT spending real money.

  18. #1138
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Yes, you are right. So i'm going to stop right here for now. Since is clear that this discussion is more with people who are using this P2W scheme in order to avoid paying USD on Game Time. But that is ok, its their time and gold they are selling to other player so he/she can win the game.

    Boosts are P2W too. 16hrs or less, is still a Time advantage.

    WoW Token gold that provide all kind of advantages like Visual, Economic, Progression in the game, Time, etc. Is P2W too.
    Yes exactly that's the definition of P2W

    This is a game. The visual, economic and progress parts are all parts of the game, getting any of this without playing and thus paying is P2W.

  19. #1139
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Cosmetics aren't p2w. So anyone who says it is? They're arguing for the sake of arguing because they're 100% wrong. The only clear cut example of p2w in WoW is the character boost.
    Not even ones that offer an in-game advantage? Trial of style has other players in the group rate your transmog. So cosmetic gear bought from the store can offer an advantage in that case. Buying the toys can help you get enough to get the achievement for a herb-picking mount. Store pets offer a distinct advantage in pet battles. Those battles can reward XP or be done for world quests. There are even some store pets that are no longer sold that offer a big advantage.

    That is the problem when you have subjective definitions for pay to win or overly broad definitions.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #1140
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    Yes, you are wrong.

    Boosts are irrelevant because you buy boosts from people that have completed the challenging, co-operative content before you.
    Who cares if ArthasdkLoL buys a boost from a guild that killed the end-boss a month ago.

    The same goes for M+. You can't buy your way to the world 1st 22 key for a specific dungeon.
    Buying your way to KSM isn't pay to win it is Pay to Mediocrity. Which is a fitting description for the idiots who buys such boosts.

    The only thing that could be argued that is P2W are BOEs. But it should be noted that all top-end guilds hate BOEs and constantly appeal to Blizzard to lessen the amount of BOEs that you can equip.
    But still it requires the absolute best of the best player to use the advantage of a couple of BOEs in order to get world 1st.

    Can you pay your way to mediocrity in WoW? Yes
    Can you pay your way to world 1st in raids, PvP or M+? No

    WoW is not P2W
    Laughably dumb take. WoW is pay to win by definition that you can use real money for in-game goods and services via a sponsored method given by Blizzard and the paid boosts.

    In fact, the paid boosts alone are a pay to win mechanic.

    Just because the game doesn't have some gimmick loot box gacha system in place doesn't mean it's not pay to win.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •