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  1. #1301
    I love how the vast majority of people saying it's not pay to win just have the argument of "I personally don't think skipping 50 level of content for $60 is an advantage so therefore it's not."

  2. #1302
    Yes, but the fanboy defense brigade will insist that it's not because you can't buy a big giant button that you push to instantly win the whole game.

  3. #1303
    Quote Originally Posted by Delano View Post
    Yes, but the fanboy defense brigade will insist that it's not because you can't buy a big giant button that you push to instantly win the whole game.
    A problem you'll have is defining "winning" when it comes to wow.
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  4. #1304
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Look, what I meant there was that what I provided (examples of other games, this game played to the max without paying etcetc) is more than just saying "pay to win".
    I'm an example guy, and I use exaggerated examples to make people to see my point (Like the meth thing, you can switch the meth to apples if you think it was an overdoing).
    I, by no means don't intent, or mean to say that my opinions(now, opinions as in green is better colour as blue) are any more valuable than other opinions.
    I'm sorry if I came up wrong, english is not my native language, but I try to make up my wrongdoings here.
    But as said, I don't think this is a discussion of opinion, or if it is, my point of every game being pay to win is valid, whereas it sure is my opinion and we can all have one, and the discussion is therefore obsolete. There's nothing to discuss, about opinions.
    This is why I say it is a fact that this is not pay to win game, because many points people here have given, I prove it wrong by telling you about my brother.


    Well we can go nitpicking about the money part and what it can buy, but it's not a thing to discuss here.
    Are you seriously asking about the street fighting guy? Ok let's make it simple once again. If I make a post here where I offer someone, anyone to play my steam account street fighter game to get me all achievements, it's pay to win just like wow boosting is. If you think otherwise please state why, why is it different?
    Why does fanboi makes me look like a nutjob? As far as I know people tend to dismiss many things including heheh, facts when they "realize" someone is a fanboi. I just don't want to wake up to 20 post quotes saying that blizz fanboi is here again, because it's just waste of space and time and everything.


    I just don't consider it a real pay to win situation because (see, I explain why I don't consider something relevant) the time consumed by this game is so large, that an 8 hour advantage is just nothing, especially it's IMO not something to say the whole game is pay to win, as it gives such marginal advantage. I'm not even sure what is the advantage here, you lvl up faster than someone else, fine, and what? But as I said earlier, I'm willing to agree this is pay-to-win if you consider instant lvl60 as win.
    Still, I don't think that this minor convenience makes the game pay to win. You paid for 8 hours, you won nothing.

    - - - Updated - - -



    More like give anus to get a carry from raidteam, or trade anus to BoE gear. "GA2W"
    GA2W is the best thing I've heard, thanks

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    I placed my definition a while back
    Doesn't matter what your definition is. I could say my definition of P2W is if you so much as look at a product and think of buying it, the game is P2W, then cite it in a discussion as if it has any weight.

    Still won't change the fact that the definition of P2W is pay money, receive power. Doesn't matter what's inbetween those two points. Because at the end of the day? You're still paying real money to get ahead of the curve in a video game.

  5. #1305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Except it was done in droves by the shady third party sites sad fact is the supply and demand are going to be there no matter what. Difference is

    1. Safer lil Timmy isn't getting his identity stolen or scammed cause he wanted to buy gold

    2. Better for Blizz (money goes to them)

    3. Better for players allows them to literally go F2P if they so choose

    The big issue is the trade chat and group finder spam....
    By that logic, Blizzard should be selling bots in the store, since people are doing it in droves anyway, potentially compromising their accounts by shady third party software. Better for the player to pay for a Blizzard-endorsed bot once, and make a nifty sum of gold (i.e. game time and other goodies) rather than resorting to questionable tools - or accepting that your in-game purse will never be on par with legal botters'.
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  6. #1306
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Look, what I meant there was that what I provided (examples of other games, this game played to the max without paying etcetc) is more than just saying "pay to win".
    I'm an example guy, and I use exaggerated examples to make people to see my point (Like the meth thing, you can switch the meth to apples if you think it was an overdoing).
    I, by no means don't intent, or mean to say that my opinions(now, opinions as in green is better colour as blue) are any more valuable than other opinions.
    I'm sorry if I came up wrong, english is not my native language, but I try to make up my wrongdoings here.
    But as said, I don't think this is a discussion of opinion, or if it is, my point of every game being pay to win is valid, whereas it sure is my opinion and we can all have one, and the discussion is therefore obsolete. There's nothing to discuss, about opinions.
    This is why I say it is a fact that this is not pay to win game, because many points people here have given, I prove it wrong by telling you about my brother.
    You provided anecdotes that in no way shape or form proved your point. As I said before you can play most P2W games without paying. It's also very clear that English isn't your native language as you often write the exact opposite of what you're trying to convey (like the street fighter guy).

    There isn't a single game in this world that's a pure P2W game. It's an aspect that can get added to games. What you're doing here is saying look at all these other parts that are not P2W and thus the game is not P2W, But things aren't simple like that, Wow can both be an MMORPG and a P2W game.

    Well we can go nitpicking about the money part and what it can buy, but it's not a thing to discuss here.
    Are you seriously asking about the street fighting guy? Ok let's make it simple once again. If I make a post here where I offer someone, anyone to play my steam account street fighter game to get me all achievements, it's pay to win just like wow boosting is. If you think otherwise please state why, why is it different?
    Why does fanboi makes me look like a nutjob? As far as I know people tend to dismiss many things including heheh, facts when they "realize" someone is a fanboi. I just don't want to wake up to 20 post quotes saying that blizz fanboi is here again, because it's just waste of space and time and everything.
    You were nitpicking about the money in your previous post. I merely refuted your claim. You again seem to misunderstand what I said your capacity for holding normal conversations and understanding even the most simple concepts seems severely impaired. And yes paying someone to win for you irl is paying to win, a genius revelation on your part. Yet again it's not relevant to the topic at hand.

    I just don't consider it a real pay to win situation because (see, I explain why I don't consider something relevant) the time consumed by this game is so large, that an 8 hour advantage is just nothing, especially it's IMO not something to say the whole game is pay to win, as it gives such marginal advantage. I'm not even sure what is the advantage here, you lvl up faster than someone else, fine, and what? But as I said earlier, I'm willing to agree this is pay-to-win if you consider instant lvl60 as win.
    Still, I don't think that this minor convenience makes the game pay to win. You paid for 8 hours, you won nothing.
    That's cool and all, but that's an irrational opinion to hold . An 8 hour advantage is an 8 hour advantage and if you paid for it it's Pay 2 Win no matter how trivial the advantage. an instant lvl 60 is a win to some people and a loss to others who can't afford it.
    Last edited by P for Pancetta; 2021-06-10 at 12:04 AM.

  7. #1307
    you can use real money to buy boosts and stuff but money doesnt give you anything you cant get in game...
    actually you need to pay to play anyway and you cant win if you cant play so yes it is pay to win

  8. #1308
    It is pay to getting BiS items, yes. At least for some slot it is the case. Those items you can buy on the auction house for ingame currency. This currency you can buy for real money!

    Those Items make your character more valuable when it comes to joining a PvE/PvP Raid or Party. Therefore it is Pay2Win. Thanks are going out to greedy Activision, who fckng up our beloved WoW more and more, year by year.

  9. #1309
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Doesn't matter what your definition is. I could say my definition of P2W is if you so much as look at a product and think of buying it, the game is P2W, then cite it in a discussion as if it has any weight. [/I]
    Oh and whose definition does? I'd like a link
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  10. #1310
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    Quote Originally Posted by P for Pancetta View Post
    You provided anecdotes that in no way shape or form proved your point. As I said before you can play most P2W games without paying. It's also very clear that English isn't your native language as you often write the exact opposite of what you're trying to convey (like the street fighter guy).


    There isn't a single game in this world that's a pure P2W game. It's an aspect that can get added to games. What you're doing here is saying look at all these other parts that are not P2W and thus the game is not P2W, But things aren't simple like that, Wow can both be an MMORPG and a P2W game.



    You were nitpicking about the money in your previous post. I merely refuted your claim. You again seem to misunderstand what I said your capacity for holding normal conversations and understanding even the most simple concepts seems severely impaired. And yes paying someone to win for you irl is paying to win, a genius revelation on your part. Yet again it's not relevant to the topic at hand.



    That's cool and all, but that's an irrational opinion to hold . An 8 hour advantage is an 8 hour advantage and if you paid for it it's Pay 2 Win no matter how trivial the advantage. an instant lvl 60 is a win to some people and a loss to others who can't afford it.
    Allright, you won mate. It's clearly pay to win.
    I'm off to play the game now, without paying a dime, while winning.
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  11. #1311
    Quote Originally Posted by bloodmoth13 View Post
    you can use real money to buy boosts and stuff but money doesnt give you anything you cant get in game...
    actually you need to pay to play anyway and you cant win if you cant play so yes it is pay to win
    lol all games you pay for are p2w, I like it
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  12. #1312
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Allright, you won mate. It's clearly pay to win.
    I'm off to play the game now, without paying a dime, while winning.


    If I want to have my BiS Ring I need to spend gold for it on some classes/specs. Same with other Items/Slots. And thanks to actiblizzard you can legaly buy gold for real cash, which is a nogo in every mmorpg.

    So stop arguing, since it is not possible to grind those items easily like you could if they would drop in a M+ Dungeon.
    Last edited by spasut; 2021-06-10 at 12:38 AM.

  13. #1313
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Allright, you won mate. It's clearly pay to win.
    I'm off to play the game now, without paying a dime, while winning.
    That's how I do it too. But I can still say it's a P2W game. Another great example is Assasins Creed (all the last ones) a single player game with amazing P2W elements.

  14. #1314
    Quote Originally Posted by Delano View Post
    Yes, but the fanboy defense brigade will insist that it's not because you can't buy a big giant button that you push to instantly win the whole game.
    Well the actual issue is people claiming that you need to "win" for something to be considered P2W, because you know, it has the word "win" in it. What it REALLY means is to gain an advantage.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I think 90% of the confusion here comes down to what P2W actually means, with many hiding behind "but you dont WIN". I would like to present a few scenarios that may or may not be considered P2W, and my opinion on them:

    1) Items that can ONLY be purchased with real money, and cannot be obtained in game, AND are equivalent or better than high end items in game. For me, this is without a doubt P2W.

    2) The same items as above, the only difference is they are obtainable through gameplay. This is still P2W in my book.

    3) Indirect item purchase from the in game store through "premium" currencies that are purchased with real money, and then used in game to purchase items. This is the same as above, just with an extra step.

    4) Indirect item purchase from other players, using a currency that can be purchased in game - this is wow - exchange your money for gold, use that gold to purchase items from other players. In this scenario not only can those items be obtained in game, but it is actually a requirement that someone obtain the item and then decide to sell it in game. This is what we are ultimately discussing now.

    5) 3rd party purchases that go directly against the TOS of the game - paying money for carries, purchasing items or characters of ebay, etc etc. This is not P2W, as it is expressly forbidden by the developers.

    6) Cosmetic only items, similar to other games offering skins, that have zero gameplay implications - a normal mount is fine, one that has vendors and auctioneers or consumables, that is a bit of a grey area.

    In all these scenarios you can replace "items" with services that allow you much faster gearing / leveling / boosting, and I don't believe that changes anything. I think the reason there is some debate about whether selling tokens and using that gold to buy items from other players is P2W is that everyone has access to those items, and for a player with millions of gold, it probably doesnt seem P2W at all, as they simply buy the items with the gold they have earned in game. The main difference between 3 and 4 is that in 3, the items are right there, on the store, ready to be purchased at any time for a fixed price by any player, while in 4, someone has to go out, complete the content, obtain the item, and decide to sell it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  15. #1315
    Can I with a wow token use the gold from that to buy ahead of the curve, gear, consumable, or the highest pvp rating? If yes, then it is p2w as I have technically completed the hardest content not through skill but with my credit card.

    With that in mind, does me skipping a large chunk of the leveling have the same affect? Yes and it is p2w. As it means I narrow the gap from having to level from 1-60 to instead 50-60 and also means I can sooner accomplish a goal of paying gold from a token for a carry of the harder content to get ahead of the curve.

  16. #1316
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    3) Indirect item purchase from the in game store through "premium" currencies that are purchased with real money, and then used in game to purchase items. This is the same as above, just with an extra step.
    And what if that premium currency can be also purchased from other players but not with money ex selling items you farm in game?

  17. #1317
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    And what if that premium currency can be also purchased from other players but not with money ex selling items you farm in game?
    I have absolutely no idea what you are asking here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  18. #1318
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    maybe, but then its p2w SINCE BOEs and carries, so since vanila...
    Yes, vanilla was P2W too. Who doesn't know someone who sold their accounts for cash? That was super common until WOTLK, when they cracked down on account-selling somewhat. My buddy sold his AQ geared lvl 60 before TBC came out, bought a motorcycle. Account buying is P2W, probably one of the earliest forms.

  19. #1319
    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro-Djinn View Post
    Can I with a wow token use the gold from that to buy ahead of the curve, gear, consumable, or the highest pvp rating? If yes, then it is p2w as I have technically completed the hardest content not through skill but with my credit card.
    You mean gold. You completed the "hardest content" not through skill but with gold. The win was paid for with gold. You bought gold as part of a microtransaction but you did not buy the win with your credit card. If that makes it pay to win the so does a subscription fee right? Because anything you do in the game is made possible by the subscription fee.

    So wouldn't the entire game be pay to win?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Yes, vanilla was P2W too. Who doesn't know someone who sold their accounts for cash? That was super common until WOTLK, when they cracked down on account-selling somewhat. My buddy sold his AQ geared lvl 60 before TBC came out, bought a motorcycle. Account buying is P2W, probably one of the earliest forms.
    The problem with that though is it was against the rules. You can cheat at any game but that doesn't mean every game is pay to win just because it is possible to do. If I pay someone to play Tetris for me that doesn't make Tetris pay to win.
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  20. #1320
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    Oh and whose definition does? I'd like a link
    The phrase itself? Lmao the term is self explanatory lmao who tf digs their own grave this far lmao

    Seriously though. Buy currency -> buy auctionhouse gear/carries with said currency = The very definition of pay to win.
    Last edited by Stardrift; 2021-06-10 at 01:27 AM.

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