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  1. #1321
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    All the "Advantages" i mention on my previous posts, that is the "WIN" on this game.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Read the Thread, i mention all the ways of winning, i call them "Advantages".
    I defined my definition of p2w a few pages back

    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    "You can buy things unobtainable in game without paying that makes you more powerful than nonpaying players"
    So until Blizz adds "Cash Shop only gear" (that you also can't buy with gold) wow won't ever be p2w to me

    If your definition of p2w is simply, "you can buy it with real money" then wow will be p2w forever to those people
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  2. #1322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    The Token is an "indirect" way of P2W too. And like @Stardrift mention in such a simple way....Pay Money and Win. You pay money, you get Gold, you Win. Simple as that.
    You pay money, you get a character boost, you win (Just wanted to repeat it because you did not believe so before).

    So, this argument enforces that P2W has been, with the permission of Blizzard, a thing since October 2006. So, the token is not even a new thing, they just choose to include everyone instead of the exclusive club.

    I can live with that. Never used a boost as a direct purchase, and all tokens I've used (20 in total) have been going for charities and competitions mostly, thus I made it P2W to be charitable. I find it a win to help people. Then again, according to you, anyone that touches my gold and other people's gold is playing the game as P2W, even the poor mage who got 10g for a portal from that Draenei over there, because that gold could've been earned from the sale of an item bought with token gold.


    Do we need to create a new name, since this theory basically means that a game is P2W as soon as outside income is added to the economy. Play2Win? I mean, you can now with the token gain EVERYTHING that Blizzard has on the market, just by playing the game.
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  3. #1323
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    You pay money, you get a character boost, you win (Just wanted to repeat it because you did not believe so before).

    So, this argument enforces that P2W has been, with the permission of Blizzard, a thing since October 2006. So, the token is not even a new thing, they just choose to include everyone instead of the exclusive club.

    I can live with that. Never used a boost as a direct purchase, and all tokens I've used (20 in total) have been going for charities and competitions mostly, thus I made it P2W to be charitable. I find it a win to help people. Then again, according to you, anyone that touches my gold and other people's gold is playing the game as P2W, even the poor mage who got 10g for a portal from that Draenei over there, because that gold could've been earned from the sale of an item bought with token gold.


    Do we need to create a new name, since this theory basically means that a game is P2W as soon as outside income is added to the economy. Play2Win? I mean, you can now with the token gain EVERYTHING that Blizzard has on the market, just by playing the game.
    Ok, just please, dont feel "sorry" for the people who are not able to pay for WoW. If they are not able to pay it, they shouldn't be playing WoW in the first place. They should be working or studying or what ever important thing they have to do in their real lives. WoW is not a necessity, is a hobby. You dont eat WoW, or drink WoW. Is just one of the Most Expensive Games in the World.

    The Token and everyone involved on it, are participating on the P2W scheme. The gold seller and the Token seller. Simple as that. Like @Stardrift said: Pay Money and Win.

  4. #1324
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    It does not create gold
    I don't think there's proof of this either way. You can make a safe assumption that another player is actually purchasing your token, but the AH system does behave a bit differently when you sell a token, as you may know. If there were no real buyers for your wow token, I'm sure it's still going to sell for market value, though I have no way to prove this out 1 way or the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    nor do you buy gold from Blizzard with it.
    That's kind of what you're doing though. This isn't a closed economic system, gold is effectively endlessly generated, limited solely through player efforts.

  5. #1325
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I don't think there's proof of this either way. You can make a safe assumption that another player is actually purchasing your token, but the AH system does behave a bit differently when you sell a token, as you may know. If there were no real buyers for your wow token, I'm sure it's still going to sell for market value, though I have no way to prove this out 1 way or the other.
    There are times that there have been no tokens for sale. If the system created gold then that would be impossible right?
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  6. #1326
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There are times that there have been no tokens for sale. If the system created gold then that would be impossible right?
    And that is a big lie, because you are not Blizzard, you are not able to see the Back-end of the Token system and you just invented that answer.

    You don't know if they are selling or not.

  7. #1327
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There are times that there have been no tokens for sale. If the system created gold then that would be impossible right?
    Fair point.

  8. #1328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Ok, just please, dont feel "sorry" for the people who are not able to pay for WoW. If they are not able to pay it, they shouldn't be playing WoW in the first place. They should be working or studying or what ever important thing they have to do in their real lives. WoW is not a necessity, is a hobby. You dont eat WoW, or drink WoW. Is just one of the Most Expensive Games in the World.

    The Token and everyone involved on it, are participating on the P2W scheme. The gold seller and the Token seller. Simple as that. Like @Stardrift said: Pay Money and Win.
    Eh, the game-time is an example supported by the advantage of time argument, and further enforced by the advantage of the economy and real money.

    As for the token, I am more supportive of it after realizing that so what if someone gets gold, someone else gets a chance to enjoy their game, or be able to upgrade their game, a chance to enjoy time with friends or be able to buy "visual advantage" or even services to transfer to a different server and find friends. The token is actually one of the most community-supporting things Blizzard has implemented in the game, as gold is not such a challenge to get by to earn a token if you know how to play the game, the market is not even that pricy to run your game just by playing it. The token is basically including people as they, if unable to, are not required to stand by with a credit card to purchase anything in the store if they can earn it anyways. Yeah, it will take some time but that is what humans do best, find a problem and solve it.
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  9. #1329
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Except in this discussion. I say cow is a human because it has eyes, ears, brain, an organ which pumps blood into its body. Just like a human. Its human.
    You can explain me it is not human, but isnt that just semantics and arguing for the sakes of arguing?
    I’ve played the game for 17 years, havent bought gold once. Havent bought a boost once.
    Why am I here telling everyone it is not pay to win?
    My brother has played 17 years too, he has 2 million gold. Never played AH and I think he never even uses it, doesnt buy anything. Has 30k achievement points, near 500 mounts. Never bought token or gold or a boost. Now that is some facts, and that is a fucking living proof that the game is not pay to win, but you dense mot***********rs dismiss all I said, and say it is pay to win because you CAN use your goddamn money for some irrelevant stupid shit like a cool mount, transmog or an achievement or BoE item in AH.
    You havent even seen a pay to win if you say wow is one.


    And just to avoid infraction: *********** = hwingedlove
    Rofl get off your high horse dude, nobody owes you anything. If you said a cow is a human you'd be called an idiot by anyone, nobody would bother arguing semantics with someone entertaining such utterly ridiculous notions.

    Your personal experience with his game is entirely irrelevant to this discussion. You not partaking in these P2W schemes again is entirely irrelevant. These elements still exist and are P2W whether or not you use them.

    But it hits the big point you and many other zealous posters have issues with. Disconnecting your personal feeling for the game in order to hold a good faith arguments. This is a very common thing called an escalation of commitment. The more you invest your resources into something the harder it becomes to judge it fairly because you blind yourself for the possible reality that your investment doesn't pay out.

  10. #1330
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    I am happy that you have learnt reason through these past pages, and like I, have come to the agreement that the boost has a form of P2W.

    I originally did not think it did because I only saw one saving a little time, nothing more, but time means a lot to some people.

    And it seems you have finally agreed that character boost is P2W and not just a service that could be written off because you just buy it with a credit card.

    So, the boost chapter is over, it is direct P2W, as it is something you can buy for real money, from the developer, to gain an advantage in-game (how minor it may feel to some).
    C'mon Gehco, don't get swayed by subjective arguments! I was proud of you on the first pages...!
    @Necrosaro123 - your advantages are subjective; I do not care about achievements, toys or pets for example. What you consider a win, I don't.

    A boost cannot be P2W because you don't win against someone else, you are not in competition with anyone else over it. It is a quality of life improvement introduced by Blizzard so players like me, who already leveled 7 characters to max in a normal way and don't have time or just simply don't want to go through the same process again, can level the 8th character without having to go through the same boring leveling quests all over again. It is a convenience, does not give me any sort of WIN over any other player in the game.
    It's simply an option, if you want to use it.
    The same with Tokens vs Gold. I don't raid anymore so I don't have anything to spend my in game gold on; I buy game time with it via the tokens so I don't have to spend real money on the monthly fee - how is that me winning against another player? Again, it's an option.

    The boosts is what PLAYERS do, not Blizzard. They can't dictate how players choose to spend their time in game, unless they are breaking the game rules.
    The fact that it all plays to Blizzard's advantage is another matter; it's their game after all. Someone would sell gold in game anyway so I rather have this kind of system where it goes through the devs than to the chinese farmers as it only encourages bots and account thefts. Think about the big picture as well!

    As long as the game has a fixed monthly fee, everyone has access to the same things in game and Blizzard does not have in shop items that affect your in-game power, it cannot be classed as a Pay-2-Win. Cosmetics are an entirely different thing that cannot even be remotely associated with the p2w model.

    It has already been explained here by multiple people why WoW is not P2W but some you are so thick and/or so upset, for whatever personal reason, that you cannot see past your own *truth*.
    @potis gave Neverwinter Online as a perfect example of P2W but it was completely missed because some of you just know better.

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  11. #1331
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    And that is a big lie, because you are not Blizzard, you are not able to see the Back-end of the Token system and you just invented that answer. You don't know if they are selling or not.
    It is not a lie. There have been times where the option to buy a token is greyed out on the Auction House. This means that the demand for tokens was greater then the supply. I can't find an article covering it from google but have found a reddit thread mentioning it. You can believe it is all some grand conspiracy for lies. It is not.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/woweconomy/...ailable_on_ah/
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  12. #1332
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I don't think there's proof of this either way. You can make a safe assumption that another player is actually purchasing your token, but the AH system does behave a bit differently when you sell a token, as you may know. If there were no real buyers for your wow token, I'm sure it's still going to sell for market value, though I have no way to prove this out 1 way or the other.



    That's kind of what you're doing though. This isn't a closed economic system, gold is effectively endlessly generated, limited solely through player efforts.
    You purchase a tradeable product, that you then put on the auction house for gold, you are paid gold by another player.

    The gold is not generated by Blizzard, if it was, you would be able to select the amount you wanted to buy.

    I mean, there have been times where you couldn't buy a token for there was no one selling it.

    Unless we are going so far off and calling it purchase of gold from Blizzard because person B farmed some mobs before paying person A for his token? For if we are that far, then it is pay2win to have a tradeable currency that can be looted from a mob in the game.
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  13. #1333
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Fair point.
    Does the WoW Token in the AH ever send you an error like: "There are no Tokens available for purchase"?. I have never seen that....That is why I'm asking.

  14. #1334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretorian View Post
    C'mon Gehco, don't get swayed by subjective arguments! I was proud of you on the first pages...!
    @Necrosaro123 - your advantages are subjective; I do not care about achievements, toys or pets for example. What you consider a win, I don't.

    A boost cannot be P2W because you don't win against someone else, you are not in competition with anyone else over it. It is a quality of life improvement introduced by Blizzard so players like me, who already leveled 7 characters to max in a normal way and don't have time or just simply don't want to go through the same process again, can level the 8th character without having to go through the same boring leveling quests all over again. It is a convenience, does not give me any sort of WIN over any other player in the game.
    It's simply an option, if you want to use it.
    The same with Tokens vs Gold. I don't raid anymore so I don't have anything to spend my in game gold on; I buy game time with it via the tokens so I don't have to spend real money on the monthly fee - how is that me winning against another player? Again, it's an option.

    The boosts is what PLAYERS do, not Blizzard. They can't dictate how players choose to spend their time in game, unless they are breaking the game rules.
    The fact that it all plays to Blizzard's advantage is another matter; it's their game after all. Someone would sell gold in game anyway so I rather have this kind of system where it goes through the devs than to the chinese farmers as it only encourages bots and account thefts. Think about the big picture as well!

    As long as the game has a fixed monthly fee, everyone has access to the same things in game and Blizzard does not have in shop items that affect your in-game power, it cannot be classed as a Pay-2-Win. Cosmetics are an entirely different thing that cannot even be remotely associated with the p2w model.

    It has already been explained here by multiple people why WoW is not P2W but some you are so thick and/or so upset, for whatever personal reason, that you cannot see past your own *truth*.
    @potis gave Neverwinter Online as a perfect example of P2W but it was completely missed because some of you just know better.

    Dear Lord, 67 pages of nonsense to discuss a non-issue...
    I let them have the win on the damn boost because I was getting tired of telling people that I did not see someone catching up with content as a win, hence my posts call it a minor P2W if anything..

    And I tried my damn hardest with the token, which by its existence, removed advantages from players because now everyone can Play2Win.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Does the WoW Token in the AH ever send you an error like: "There are no Tokens available for purchase"?. I have never seen that....That is why I'm asking.
    Yes, the Auction House tells you when there are no tokens available for purchase, and the button is greyed out. It has not happened often but I have experienced it about 3-5 times.
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  15. #1335
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    I let them have the win on the damn boost because I was getting tired of telling people that I did not see someone catching up with content as a win, hence my posts call it a minor P2W if anything..

    And I tried my damn hardest with the token, which by its existence, removed advantages from players because now everyone can Play2Win.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Yes, the Auction House tells you when there are no tokens available for purchase, and the button is greyed out. It has not happened often but I have experienced it about 3-5 times.
    That is interesting. I always believed that Blizzard kinda "lied" about the availability of these Tokens, just for the sake of always providing a guarantee sale. But since, we don't know the Back-End of it, we are not sure if its 100% fair. Maybe Blizzard provide a certain number of Tokens themselves, just to keep the sales going....or maybe not. That is not a proven fact, just crazy ideas.

    Now, the Token doesnt stop being an excelente way to get tons of gold, so is still a P2W

  16. #1336
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    That is interesting. I always believed that Blizzard kinda "lied" about the availability of these Tokens, just for the sake of always providing a guarantee sale. But since, we don't know the Back-End of it, we are not sure if its 100% fair. Maybe Blizzard provide a certain number of Tokens themselves, just to keep the sales going....or maybe not. That is not a proven fact, just crazy ideas.

    Now, the Token doesnt stop being an excelente way to get tons of gold, so is still a P2W
    If Blizzard provide tokens they are basically giving out money... just fyi.
    If blizzard puts out a token on AH and someone buys it for gold all that have happened is that the player either gained game time or 13 euro or whatever the USD equivalent is while blizzard only removed gold from the system. Reason why tokens work for Blizzard is because another players BUYS the token which gives them money and then that token is traded to players. Skipping the BUYING part is just blizzard making poor business decisions.

    So this idea that Blizzard provides some tokens is wild to me. Blizzard are literally giving out money to players if that was the case. maybe they were the good guy all along.

  17. #1337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    That is interesting. I always believed that Blizzard kinda "lied" about the availability of these Tokens, just for the sake of always providing a guarantee sale. But since, we don't know the Back-End of it, we are not sure if its 100% fair. Maybe Blizzard provide a certain number of Tokens themselves, just to keep the sales going....or maybe not. That is not a proven fact, just crazy ideas.
    That is more conspiracy then discussion for this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Now, the Token doesnt stop being an excelente way to get tons of gold, so is still a P2W
    As for the token, I am more supportive of it after realizing that so what if someone gets gold, someone else gets a chance to enjoy their game, or be able to upgrade their game, a chance to enjoy time with friends or be able to buy "visual advantage" or even services to transfer to a different server and find friends. The token is actually one of the most community-supporting things Blizzard has implemented in the game, as gold is not such a challenge to get by to earn a token if you know how to play the game, the market is not even that pricy to run your game just by playing it. The token is basically including people as they, if unable to, are not required to stand by with a credit card to purchase anything in the store if they can earn it anyways. Yeah, it will take some time but that is what humans do best, find a problem and solve it.

    So, we're at Play2Win for one half of the group and indirect P2W for the other half.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    If Blizzard provide tokens they are basically giving out money... just fyi.
    If blizzard puts out a token on AH and someone buys it for gold all that have happened is that the player either gained game time or 13 euro or whatever the USD equivalent is while blizzard only removed gold from the system.

    So this idea that Blizzard provides some tokens is wild to me. Blizzard are literally giving out money to players.
    Well, with enough conspiracy, you could believe that Blizzard gives 13 euros or 15 dollars to players for gold.
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  18. #1338
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    Of course WoW is pay to win. You pay $15/month to play the game, while anyone who can't afford that can't play. Therefore as a paying player you win by elimination.

    In all seriousness though, doesn't make sense how you could call the game "pay to win" due to the token when it gives you gold, the same currency everyone else uses. Gold isn't difficult to make if you have a very rudimentary understanding of professions and the auction house. Furthermore, the things you can buy with gold can only give you an advantage over players who are at or below your ilvl, which is completely irrelevant when those players get raid gear, enchants, consumables, etc.

    This is a dumb argument.
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  19. #1339
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    In World of Warcraft?. Well, there are several ways:
    - Achievements
    - Collections (Mounts, Transmog, Toys, Gold, Pets...etc)
    - Complete quests
    - Being able to kill other players and not dying

    There are so many points that qualify you as "Winning the Game". And all of them can be affected when you have a big pile of gold in your bank.
    Achievements are not a win condition for me.
    Mounts.... Are not a winning condition for me neither.
    Complete quests... Please be serious.
    ..and I bet all my gold that you cant put an auction house boosted character inside an arena vs some skilled characters and make him win.

    You can even pay all your way to 2400 rating and someone else is winning for you.

    Remove the booster from the equation and all the p2w guy have is ilvl and crap loads of losses.

  20. #1340
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    That is more conspiracy then discussion for this topic.


    As for the token, I am more supportive of it after realizing that so what if someone gets gold, someone else gets a chance to enjoy their game, or be able to upgrade their game, a chance to enjoy time with friends or be able to buy "visual advantage" or even services to transfer to a different server and find friends. The token is actually one of the most community-supporting things Blizzard has implemented in the game, as gold is not such a challenge to get by to earn a token if you know how to play the game, the market is not even that pricy to run your game just by playing it. The token is basically including people as they, if unable to, are not required to stand by with a credit card to purchase anything in the store if they can earn it anyways. Yeah, it will take some time but that is what humans do best, find a problem and solve it.

    So, we're at Play2Win for one half of the group and indirect P2W for the other half.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well, with enough conspiracy, you could believe that Blizzard gives 13 euros or 15 dollars to players for gold.
    Yep, is just a conspiracy crap with no proof. Just crazy ideas of mine.

    And for the token, i dont support it. It only help support other people addiction to the game, avoiding paying real money for their subscription and access to the server. Promoting unhealthy playstyle for said player who play WoW to pay it. And from the gold buyer, to boost himself with Economical Power to take advantage of the game and win. Pay to Win.

    If there are people out there who are not able to pay for the game, maybe WoW is not for them. If you want to use your time to farm gold to sell, it doesn't look like a healthy way of playing a game, sounds more like a job you are doing for other people and Blizzard. Back then, the game was about doing quests, defeat powerful enemies and complete achievements.

    I don't support Tokens or Boosts, since they are Pay to Win. You pay money, you get ingame currency. You pay money, you get power. Is P2W.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post
    Achievements are not a win condition for me.
    Mounts.... Are not a winning condition for me neither.
    Complete quests... Please be serious.
    ..and I bet all my gold that you cant put an auction house boosted character inside an arena vs some skilled characters and make him win.

    You can even pay all your way to 2400 rating and someone else is winning for you.

    Remove the booster from the equation and all the p2w guy have is ilvl and crap loads of losses.
    You said it. "for you". For other people is a win condition.

    You can even pay all your way to 2400 rating and someone else is winning for you. = Correct, pay gold and the player provide you his aid. But where is that gold coming from?. Depends....Some people get the gold fast from the Tokens, and that is the P2W scheme. The guy selling the service of giving you rating on PvP is selling his skills, if you pay to get Gold from Token, that is where the P2W start.

    If we remove the Boost, the players are left to....Play the game. And if they don't like playing quests....I'm afraid this game is not for you. Since the endgame is filled with those.

    If you use your wallet to WIN on PvP or PvE....is P2W

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