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  1. #1441
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    i played on many servers in wow europe, stormscale, bronze dragonflight, ghostlands, bladefist, and finally Twisting Nether from WoD+
    I can easily say that up to WoD time, i rarely if ever saw a gold boost sell on trade on any of those other servers, so no while there was of course some gold boost sell (I myself did one gold boost raid in ToC during wrath, since back then i was in 2nd best guild on server and best horde), it is absolutely nothing like token-wow era of sell raid boosts for gold, or a tank selling boost doing m+ as my rl friend did during Legion
    So if i wasn't clear: pre-token wow gold didn't have actual money value, i can right now tell u how much a euro can buy u gold in wow using blizz own website, that line didn't exist pre-tokens, that line is why wow became P2W, when wow gold obtained an official euro value from blizzard
    Shit dude not sure how. I was on Thrall, Illidan and Stormrage and they were flooded with it. Folks stated developing addons to block them they were so frequent. I made my first million gold hosting GDKP raids weekly on 2 different toons and always had a full raid, like more than a full raid worth of people who wanted to go. At one point we started charging to attend the GDKP lol. SOOOO much of it going on for as long as I can remember.

  2. #1442
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    You are asking an impossible question because the scenario you have presented contradicts itself. You say it can ONLY be bought with real money, but then claim it can also be exchanged in game, meaning it is not only purchasable with real money...
    It does exist. In fact there is a pretty big game that uses this system.

    Can only be bought directly with real money (total pool of that currency will never increase unless someone else makes the purchase).
    In other words, if nobody ever purchased it from devs, nobody would be able to use it or trade it.

    You can however acquire it by selling stuff (farmed in game) to other players thus making it possible to get everything from the game or shop without paying a single cent.
    In other words, someone has to buy your stuff, you cannot make "purchase" yourself. Thus you cannot technically "buy" it from other players.

    Technically nothing is ever free because time is super valuable resource that can be translated into money but that is different issue.

    So is that pay to win or not?
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  3. #1443
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It does exist. In fact there is a pretty big game that uses this system.

    Can only be bought directly with real money (total pool of that currency will never increase unless someone else makes the purchase).
    In other words, if nobody ever purchased it from devs, nobody would be able to use it or trade it.

    You can however acquire it by selling stuff (farmed in game) to other players thus making it possible to get everything from the game or shop without paying a single cent.
    In other words, someone has to buy your stuff, you cannot make "purchase" yourself. Thus you cannot technically "buy" it from other players.

    Technically nothing is ever free because time is super valuable resource that can be translated into money but that is different issue.

    So is that pay to win or not?
    Look you have acknowledged you are talking about a specific system, from a specific game, so do away with all the cryptic theatrics and just say what system you are talking about, and from what game. For the life of me I cannot understand why you wouldn't just do that in the first place, unless this is some elaborate attempt at a "gotcha!" Moment.
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  4. #1444
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So again you are only buying gold. Not BoE's from the Auction house. A player still has to put effort into earning the gold and the BoE's in order for you to purchase them. The gold provides the win and not your cash. Again, Do you consider the box price and subscription price as pay to win? Because those enable the same things a token does. What is the difference between two indirect forms of cash?

    Tokens are micro transactions. Nothing more. Nothing less. Not every single micro transaction in a game is pay to win.
    I mean.. Purchase currency with real life cash, use currency to purchase carries/mythic gear off AH. By definition, it's P2W. Doesn't matter what's inbetween. At the end of the day, you're still paying cash for power.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    If we're going to not use a term specificed by any governing body and instead are going to use the words as they are defined then yes wow is p2w, because simply buying the game as stated before = success = winning = all games p2w

    See above.

    Also, completing a raid is also winning. Paying cash, receiving gold, then spending it on someone to carry you to the end of a raid is also winning. Begins with pay, ends with win.

    /Thread
    Last edited by Stardrift; 2021-06-10 at 04:51 AM.

  5. #1445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I mean.. Purchase currency with real life cash, use currency to purchase carries/mythic gear off AH. By definition, it's P2W. Doesn't matter what's inbetween. At the end of the day, you're still paying cash for power.

    - - - Updated - - -



    See above.

    Also, completing a raid is also winning. Paying cash, receiving gold, then spending it on someone to carry you is also winning. Begins with pay, ends with win.

    /Thread
    I wouldn't bother too much with that kind of people. They seem to believe that since "you can't win anything in an MMO", the game can't possibly have P2W elements. Ever /facepalm
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  6. #1446
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Repeating a question I've already told you an answer to won't magically change anything. You can't keep complaining about dishonesty when you refuse to acknowledge the responses that you get. Saying the average is extremely generous means you were talking about a minimum rather then an average. Because you are of a firm belief that it takes longer then 20 mins when being realistic.

    World Quests only change at set times of the day. The only World Quests that would not be available across all characters would be covenant related ones. Which since you think being in 160 after 6 months is realistic they also wouldn't have unlocked. Because it requires ranks to be spent in the Anima conductor. Doing the world content in Shadowlands doesn't change much based on gear. The only things that go faster or the ones that you have to kill rares on. Even then with a little bit of ground work, which I already said is takes work to do, your characters will out gear world content.
    You haven't answered the question. You made a claim without any proof and you expect to dazzle us with words that mean nothing. Your argument of "it's easy to get a token every week" has been shot to pieces.

    Here is the math. 15 toons a day x average of 1700 gold for each calling (your estimate of up to 2500 is just wrong) x 7 days is 178,500 gold which is short of how much a token is.

    The average time for a calling is approx 20 mins. Depending on travel and what you actually have to do. This is assuming that they are not all raiders because no one has 15 raiders. That's just fantasy. So considering that, at best, the would all have the campaign finished your looking at a average ilvl of 190. Still very undergrared and scaling of the world still matters.

    15 x 20 is 5 hours.

    You are wrong. It's not easy. It's not casual. And it doesn't even hit the mark of buying a token.
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  7. #1447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    I wouldn't bother too much with that kind of people. They seem to believe that since "you can't win anything in an MMO", the game can't possibly have P2W elements. Ever /facepalm
    let's not forget that the problem in first place is in a full priced game, full priced each expansion, with monthly subscription fee, Kodick still has the audacity of making a cash shop of ANY form for ANY thing in first place
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  8. #1448
    Ye. You get the rating but you arent winning anything.
    Someone else is carrying that person in the arena.
    When they leave the arena to the open world, its just a loser with high rating.

    And buying tokens for gold to buy gear to make quests its the ultimate definition of loser. I dont understand why you worry about p2w to make quests. Since everyone can make those.

    Anyway. From your arguments I can just guess you are either to young or delusional.

    Beeing a winner its not about "getting there", its more about "how you do it".

  9. #1449
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post
    Ye. You get the rating but you arent winning anything.
    Someone else is carrying that person in the arena.
    When they leave the arena to the open world, its just a loser with high rating.

    And buying tokens for gold to buy gear to make quests its the ultimate definition of loser. I dont understand why you worry about p2w to make quests. Since everyone can make those.

    Anyway. From your arguments I can just guess you are either to young or delusional.

    Beeing a winner its not about "getting there", its more about "how you do it".
    yeah no, that's just your opinion not grounded in fact, reality or the clearly defined meaning of certain words.

  10. #1450
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    So what you mean is.. the game is pay to win lmao. Buy currency that buys you power. As in.. like.. buying something.. to win..? The stretching and strawmanning in this thread is pretty funny.
    He said while simultaneously stretching the strawman.

  11. #1451
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    Good morning, so we're now at the following within the ToS...

    ... It is direct P2W to purchase a boost from the shop.
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase a token from the shop.
    ... It is indirect P2W to sell a token from the shop.
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase a token from the auction house.
    ... It is indirect P2W to convert a token from the auction.
    ... It is indirect P2W to receive gold that has been generated from the sales of a token via the sale of a different item.
    ... It is indirect P2W to use the token to buy game-time, thus forcing your P2W opinion on people who wish to enjoy a game.
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase a service with a converted token.
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase a product with a converted token.
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase a player-operated service with gold from the token sale, or gold acquired from the sale of another item bought with token gold.
    ... It is indirect P2W to not use a credit card/debit card/Pay Pal.
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase an item from the shop with your credit card/debit card/Pay Pal.
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase 60-day game-time with credit card/debit card/Pay Pal.

    ... It is not P2W to purchase a service from the shop, unless you have purchased a token, and converted it to Battle.net Currency, then it is indirect P2W.
    ... It is not P2W to subscribe to World of Warcraft since it is a service.

    So, after this tiresome discussion, the topic as currently concluded to have been P2W since October 2006, and since then has infected everyone, and apparently according to some, everyone who has done any form of trading has supported P2W even if they do not claim so, meaning the people who claim this, has been supporting P2W themselves by logging in.

    With this notion, the token is also the most inclusive mechanic Blizzard has included since people have the freedom to either pay the game with real money currency or with in-game currency. So you could say, inclusion is winning, so P2W too.
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  12. #1452
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Good morning, so we're now at the following within the ToS...

    ... It is direct P2W to purchase a boost from the shop.
    Yes
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase a token from the shop.
    No. this is also direct P2W.
    ... It is indirect P2W to sell a token from the shop.
    same as above, you buy a token to sell it
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase a token from the auction house.
    No this is Pay 2 play, the player buys a token in order to play the game
    ... It is indirect P2W to convert a token from the auction.
    No, you do not gain an advantage from buying a token, you either get gametime or shopmoney
    ... It is indirect P2W to receive gold that has been generated from the sales of a token via the sale of a different item.
    That depends on who are the beneficiaries
    ... It is indirect P2W to use the token to buy game-time, thus forcing your P2W opinion on people who wish to enjoy a game.
    No, and the second part of the sentence is not related to the first, this is a non argument.
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase a service with a converted token.
    No, by turning your gold into a token and converting it into money is not P2W. it doesn't provide any advantage in any game.
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase a product with a converted token.
    Nope
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase a player-operated service with gold from the token sale, or gold acquired from the sale of another item bought with token gold.
    No this is direct P2W, if the gold was used to buy items to reach a certain ilvl in order to get into a grp it would be more indirect.
    ... It is indirect P2W to not use a credit card/debit card/Pay Pal.
    No because these things aren't a game.
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase an item from the shop with your credit card/debit card/Pay Pal.
    It's direct P2W to buy an item from the ingame shop. buying a tshirt isn't P2W it's just a transaction.
    ... It is indirect P2W to purchase 60-day game-time with credit card/debit card/Pay Pal.
    No this is Pay 2 Play.
    ... It is not P2W to purchase a service from the shop, unless you have purchased a token, and converted it to Battle.net Currency, then it is indirect P2W.
    if you buy a character boost you're engaging in a P2W purchase. if you buy a tshirt you're not.
    ... It is not P2W to subscribe to World of Warcraft since it is a service.
    It's pay 2 play

    So, after this tiresome discussion, the topic as currently concluded to have been P2W since October 2006, and since then has infected everyone, and apparently according to some, everyone who has done any form of trading has supported P2W even if they do not claim so, meaning the people who claim this, has been supporting P2W themselves by logging in.

    Okay this is a very disingenuous response which clearly shows your colors. You don't have to partake in this discussion, it's not relevant, it's not going to change anything in the world. It's might be tiresome because you're arguing from a position of loose ground and each time your arguments get dismantled you have to regroup and make up new arguments, while the other side had facts to back up their opinions.

    Peoples opinions on P2W don't matter. If someone argues that trading is supporting P2W they're an idiot, this is not a solid argument it's a fallacy you don't have to give it merit. The loopy logic you employ thereafter falls into the same category of nonsense.




    With this notion, the token is also the most inclusive mechanic Blizzard has included since people have the freedom to either pay the game with real money currency or with in-game currency. So you could say, inclusion is winning, so P2W too.
    This is a false equivalency, "this notion" has no relevancy with inclusivity at all. Only people who are already playing world of warcraft have a use for tokens and boosts. they're already included. them engaging in these P2W schemes does in no way shape or form change the inclusivity. Also people who pay for their game time with gold had to have paid for their first month minimally. You cannot start this game F2P and then continue it by farming gold. (there is a gold cap on F2P accounts that's lower then the token price)
    Last edited by P for Pancetta; 2021-06-10 at 11:56 AM.

  13. #1453
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    Quote Originally Posted by P for Pancetta View Post
    This is a false equivalency, "this notion" has no relevancy with inclusivity at all. Only people who are already playing world of warcraft have a use for tokens and boosts. they're already included. them engaging in these P2W schemes does in no way shape or form change the inclusivity. Also people who pay for their game time with gold had to have paid for their first month minimally. You cannot start this game F2P and then continue it by farming gold.
    The list is literally built up of statements recently made or developed within the discussion of this thread where statements such as using the token to play the game was P2W, and using currency coming from a sale of the token, was P2W, and so on.

    As well, direct P2W means Blizzard gives you the advantage/benefit/power/whatever - indirect means you take your token, and trade it for gold and use it on something else - and someone then made the follow-up, that it is Pay2Win to receive that gold in a trade or service.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2021-06-10 at 11:57 AM.
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  14. #1454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Do not fret. I hate editing MMO-C posts on the phone as well.


    Well, if all the TCG items are just BoP it wouldn't be included in P2W unless you believe in "visual advantages" but it is the part that some TCG loot is made specifically with trading in mind (BoE's).


    Well, Blizzard doesn't advertise their tokens, though. That is one of the interesting things. Considering how hostile and invasive 3rd parties were, and we're talking real players and 'companies' trying to pawn off what they can.
    I suppose it maybe depends on what the “win” is then? I know I raid mythic not for powerful gear but for transmog (as well as the sense of cooperating, something WoW seems to have lost with a shift to competitive but that’s a different topic). Like if my CM gear and CM weapons, alongside with MT weapons went on the store I would be pissed. Getting that gear for transmog was my win, and if someone can just buy that, to me that is the P2W. Maybe I am just moving the goal posts? But that’s the way I see it.

  15. #1455
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    The list is literally built up of statements recently made or developed within the discussion of this thread where statements such as using the token to play the game was P2W, and using currency coming from a sale of the token, was P2W, and so on.

    As well, direct P2W means Blizzard gives you the advantage/benefit/power/whatever - indirect means you take your token, and trade it for gold and use it on something else - and someone then made the follow-up, that it is Pay2Win to receive that gold in a trade or service.
    Who cares if that's what people have said? doesn't make them right. Nor do these unfounded opinions prove that you are right, and neither do they disprove the P2W schemes present in WoW.

    The buying of gold is already a direct P2W, even if you turn it all into grey items and delete them you still engaged in a direct P2W scheme.

  16. #1456
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    Quote Originally Posted by choom View Post
    Yes, vanilla was P2W too. Who doesn't know someone who sold their accounts for cash? That was super common until WOTLK, when they cracked down on account-selling somewhat. My buddy sold his AQ geared lvl 60 before TBC came out, bought a motorcycle. Account buying is P2W, probably one of the earliest forms.
    I don't think this fits even the broadest of P2W definitions. IMO, P2W needs to have some officially sanctioned aspect.
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  17. #1457
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    Quote Originally Posted by P for Pancetta View Post
    Who cares if that's what people have said? doesn't make them right. Nor do these unfounded opinions prove that you are right, and neither do they disprove the P2W schemes present in WoW.
    I did not say I was right, it was an overview of the discussions developed.

    In my own book, boost is direct P2W (though minor) and the token would be at a stretch, indirect P2W (as it was brought in about 50 pages ago in the thread, else, it wouldn't have been P2W at all, unless we used the 'indirect' term) but opens up to way too many variables.

    Literally, the main reason I joined in this discussion, but I knew some would be in an uproar of the token, and reminiscence of the 'old days' yet it was P2W there too, except from launch in 2004, to September 2006.

    Quote Originally Posted by P for Pancetta View Post
    The buying of gold is already a direct P2W, even if you turn it all into grey items and delete them you still engaged in a direct P2W scheme.
    The token is not direct P2W, if you purchased your gold directly from Blizzard it would be direct. All you purchase is tradeable game-time.

    The only thing I know I'm right about is if the token is a form of P2W, then the tradeable TCG loot is as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by tacoloco View Post
    I don't think this fits even the broadest of P2W definitions. IMO, P2W needs to have some officially sanctioned aspect.
    Nah, if we stay within the ToS, it was P2W since October 2006.
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  18. #1458
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    I did not say I was right, it was an overview of the discussions developed.

    In my own book, boost is direct P2W (though minor) and the token would be at a stretch, indirect P2W (as it was brought in about 50 pages ago in the thread, else, it wouldn't have been P2W at all, unless we used the 'indirect' term) but opens up to way too many variables.

    Literally, the main reason I joined in this discussion, but I knew some would be in an uproar of the token, and reminiscence of the 'old days' yet it was P2W there too, except from launch in 2004, to September 2006.


    The token is not direct P2W, if you purchased your gold directly from Blizzard it would be direct. All you purchase is tradeable game-time.

    The only thing I know I'm right about is if the token is a form of P2W, then the tradeable TCG loot is as well.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Nah, if we stay within the ToS, it was P2W since October 2006.
    The token is direct P2W your opinion is irrelevant.
    The TCG lootcards are more complicated, Tcg cardpacks did not guarantee a lootcard. It's not P2W but it is a form of gambling. Peer reviewed research has shown a clear correlation between spending patterns on booster style games and problematic gambling behavior
    Last edited by P for Pancetta; 2021-06-10 at 12:35 PM.

  19. #1459
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Winning is many things on the game, it has been described many times on this Thread. Winning can be anything the player desires and can be paid in Gold to the AH and other players to achieve it.
    Except for all the things I described that can't be bought...

  20. #1460
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I mean.. Purchase currency with real life cash, use currency to purchase carries/mythic gear off AH. By definition, it's P2W. Doesn't matter what's inbetween. At the end of the day, you're still paying cash for power.
    Sure it does. The currency and the system for that currency matter. If gold was given out in a trickle and primary gained by micro transaction then it would be pay to win. If it was sourced by Blizzard it would be closer to pay to win. If the win was coming from Blizzard it would be pay to win.

    As it is the win comes from players after using a normal in-game currency. It doesn't matter the source of that currency as we all pay at some point in order to get gold. Because of the subscription price right? If the subscription price has not made the game pay to win then obviously indirect links to real money are not relevant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    You haven't answered the question. You made a claim without any proof and you expect to dazzle us with words that mean nothing. Your argument of "it's easy to get a token every week" has been shot to pieces.
    "I also told you that I can't estimate the times but told you that I can sometimes clear a zone of Anima quests before my HS is off cool down"
    "It was pretty easy to clear the 11 or so Anima quests up each day in an hour of play. Even opening chests can work towards requirements on some callings to make it even faster."

    I answered it. I just didn't give the answer you and him were apparently looking for. My estimate of up to 2,500 is not wrong. You can get 1,500 to 2,500 so when talking about ranges you include the low end and the top end. Right? Both you and him are looking for any little detail so you can shout at the top of your lungs how wrong it is. When it still doesn't change that there is a relatively easy way to get at least 150k a week.

    Is it practical for everyone? Nope. But that wasn't the original question was it? Let me guess you don't even know the original question right? Why didn't you attack the other poster for not answer questions as well? Weird right?

    Have you played the game recently to time how long it takes to do a calling? You don't need to be a raider in order to do World Quests quick. World Content gear tops off at 194 with Covenant gear at 196. It is extremely easy to gear alts to out gear world content. 190 is not very under geared for world content. You clearly have not played the game recently at all if you think that is the case. I also never said it was casual. I said after set up it is relatively easy to do a calling which it objectively is. 3 chests or rares is easy. 4 to 5 world quests is easy. Two floors of Torghast is easy (layer 1). All of the callings are easy.

    If you struggle, even at 190 gear, to finish any calling then the problem is skill level of the player and not the game.
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