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  1. #1461
    Any games with an Auction House, is P2W in this.

    There will always be gold sellers, if you can get stuff faster with gold.

    I really dont mind Blizzard getting a cut of the action... Its not like you can buy Full Mythic gear for £$€

  2. #1462
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Well, I'm just operating on what people have been chanting.

    Credit card -> Purchase item -> Sell item -> Advantage -> P2W
    And it's time to reconsider and start thinking for yourself.

    What you describe encompasses many many many things:

    Taking a chess lesson is P2W.
    Taking swimming classes is P2W.
    Buying WoW Gold from G2G is P2W.

    None of these things are actual P2W the first two because they're not videogames. The last one because it's not Blizzard who's selling the gold but the players who are.

    Even tho this is almost exactly the same thing as blizzard selling the gold, and even tho you're getting an unfair advantage over other players. The thing wat most clearly differentiates the two is that in P2W the exploiter of the game will try to generate extra revenue by monetizing advantages, where the other deliverer of advantages is merely hitchhiking on the success of the games exploiter (actiblizz in wows case).

    The TCG game while providing an ingame advantage follows a completely different business model.

  3. #1463
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P for Pancetta View Post
    And it's time to reconsider and start thinking for yourself.

    What you describe encompasses many many many things:

    Taking a chess lesson is P2W.
    Taking swimming classes is P2W.
    Buying WoW Gold from G2G is P2W.

    None of these things are actual P2W the first two because they're not videogames. The last one because it's not Blizzard who's selling the gold but the players who are.
    What I described only fits 1 of your three lines, but that line does not really count because it is breaking the ToS. The two others are not even close to the freaking thing you guys have been chanting. It is a mockery, and nothing more. I followed what others have discussed and soon chanted to further people. Your first two lines make zero sense to the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by P for Pancetta View Post
    Even tho this is almost exactly the same thing as blizzard selling the gold, and even tho you're getting an unfair advantage over other players. The thing wat most clearly differentiates the two is that in P2W the exploiter of the game will try to generate extra revenue by monetizing advantages, where the other deliverer of advantages is merely hitchhiking on the success of the games exploiter (actiblizz in wows case).

    The TCG game while providing an ingame advantage follows a completely different business model.
    Currently, from Blizzard's view of business, the token and TCG are active products, nothing more. We, the players, define if it is P2W, and if we go by the definitions, then even though it could be considered a different business model, it is now granting players an advantage. What in this business model makes one credit card purchase better than another? And by that phrase, we're back to around pages 5-10 of this thread, where I called it an exclusive P2W compared to Token.
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  4. #1464
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    What I described only fits 1 of your three lines, but that line does not really count because it is breaking the ToS. The two others are not even close to the freaking thing you guys have been chanting. It is a mockery, and nothing more. I followed what others have discussed and soon chanted to further people. Your first two lines make zero sense to the topic.


    Currently, from Blizzard's view of business, the token and TCG are active products, nothing more. We, the players, define if it is P2W, and if we go by the definitions, then even though it could be considered a different business model, it is now granting players an advantage. What in this business model makes one credit card purchase better than another? And by that phrase, we're back to around pages 5-10 of this thread, where I called it an exclusive P2W compared to Token.
    Where did you get this from, you working for blizzard? Yet again you're arguments are based in fantasy.

  5. #1465
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    No, it's not pay to win.

    You're always able to pay someone else to play a game for you. Nothing in the store gives power you can't get from playing the game. It is strictly not pay to win.
    Then so are a lot of mobile games according to you.

    Just because it is available in game doesn't mean paying for it isn't pay to win. If you no life this game and spend 35 hours a week you can get less than the amount you would get buying a token. What can you do with this gold? You can buy gear and achievements and prestige. It doesn't matter where those come from just the currency you use to pay for it.

    Pre token there was no pay to win as you couldn't buy the gold from Blizzard. People need to stop confusing P2W with cheating. Once the token was available then P2W came into effect. The proper definition of P2W is the ability to purchase currency that allows a player to skip time locks or power. That's what the token system is. Buying gold from Blizzard is P2W.

    Now that we have a proper definition of P2W we can discuss whether or not it is a good thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    If you consider getting gladiator title(or whatever you call ”win) by being boosted, then yea, every game is pay to win, also wow.
    i myself consider it pay to win when there is no other way to receive a 79 strenght trinket, but to buy it in blizzard store.
    Then you would be wrong. P2W is selling items that allow a player to skip time locks (boost) or to purchase power items (gold to purchase the items). Don't mistake your opinion for fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  6. #1466
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P for Pancetta View Post
    Where did you get this from, you working for blizzard? Yet again you're arguments are based in fantasy.
    Get what from? Be specific and mark it out.

    What, the part that the token and the TCG loot cards are products? That is the common sense of business, what else are they?

    Or is it the part where they are 'active' products? That is the common sense of business too, the Token is actively sold, and the product codes of the TCG loot items does not have an expiration date yet.
    Last edited by Gehco; 2021-06-10 at 09:00 PM.
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  7. #1467
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Then you would be wrong. P2W is selling items that allow a player to skip time locks (boost) or to purchase power items (gold to purchase the items). Don't mistake your opinion for fact.
    ”Don’t mistake your opinion for a fact” proceeds to state an opinion for a fact.
    I already admitted paying for the boost is pay to win(which no one but you and the hatecrew think is a win in any scenario), and at this point I hope this ”p2w scheme” makes you and bunch of others just quit the game, that would be a win-win for everyone. Quit the game, stop reading a forum dedicated to this p2w game.
    Good day sir.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  8. #1468
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    See above

    Also, there is nothing more definitive than.. purchasing power = P2W. No matter how many extra steps. If a dollar is spent on something that can buy you power, it is undoubtedly, factually P2W.
    To you, not to everyone.
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  9. #1469
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    To you, not to everyone.
    So you are claiming there are people who think swiping your credit card and buying full bis gear is NOT P2W?

    Or are you simply saying that as soon as there is an additional step, it stops being P2W? So swiping your credit card which gives you a token which can be traded at a vendor in gmae for full BIS gear is not P2W because there was one extra step?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    I repeat my question. Can you p2w these guys? I believe not. So how is it p2w if you can't win those guys who are f2p?
    Using Gladiator as an example, those peoples intention is to gain the title of glad, and get any benefits that come with it (xmogs, mounts etc), not to actually be competitive with people who earned the rank legitimately. You know how we can safely draw that conclusion? If they genuinely thought they could compete with players of that skill level, they would do it themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iinverse View Post
    Convenience. Not advantage. It will not help you to be stronger, because everyone can reach lvl 50 fast and easily.
    But that convenience can be an advantage - you are making it sound like something cannot be both. For example, having a mount that travels at 300% speed would be extremely convenient, and an advantage. Having 500% XP gains for 2 weeks would be very convenient, and an advantage. But lastly, what on earth makes you think ANYONE can reach lvl 50 "fast" and "easily"? If that was true, this discussion would not be taking place, because no one would be using the boost - they would just be leveling up because you know, its "fast and easy". Im not claiming it is impossible, or even particularly challenging, but for many people, it is not fast and easy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by This One Time At Bandcamp View Post
    Any games with an Auction House, is P2W in this.

    There will always be gold sellers, if you can get stuff faster with gold.

    I really dont mind Blizzard getting a cut of the action... Its not like you can buy Full Mythic gear for £$€
    So just to be clear, in a game where the only way to purchase gold is against the TOS of the game, and involves out of game, 3rd party transactions, you still consider that P2W?

    Low blows are not legal in boxing, but some people still do it - and are punished for doing it - that doesn't mean low blows are a legitimate part of boxing.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-10 at 09:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  10. #1470
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    ”Don’t mistake your opinion for a fact” proceeds to state an opinion for a fact.
    I already admitted paying for the boost is pay to win(which no one but you and the hatecrew think is a win in any scenario), and at this point I hope this ”p2w scheme” makes you and bunch of others just quit the game, that would be a win-win for everyone. Quit the game, stop reading a forum dedicated to this p2w game.
    Good day sir.
    It isn't an opinion. It is fact. Could you please highlight where I expressed an opinion on the merit of how blizzard has implemented P2W?

    I'll help you. It's right here. I am for blizzards implementation. It helps me in 2 ways
    1. I can buy a token for gold.
    2. Boosts allow more people to play which means more opportunity for me to play. This is TBCC specific for me.

    I'll wait for an apology.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  11. #1471
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They are not a direct link to having the carry be for cash. The carry is for gold. Payment for the carry goes to the players, not Blizzard. It does matter what is in between for the same reason why a subscription to the game does not qualify for the usual definition of pay to win.



    Gold for carries is independent of you buying them or not. It is a thing between two players. What you do with the gold after you buy it is not what qualifies the token as pay to win. Otherwise it would simultaneously be not pay to win. Because you could spend that gold on materials, on a mount, on transmog, or something else that "isn't a win". And unless you are doing a carry for KSM/CE you are not guaranteed anything. It is possible for loot to not drop for you which is why there is an up charge for guaranteed loot/trades from other players during runs.
    Again, no matter how many words you stuff into a paragraph, it all boils down to... Purchase with cash -> receive currency -> spend currency on power.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    To you, not to everyone.
    By definition.

  12. #1472
    This topic needs a poll.

  13. #1473
    Quote Originally Posted by Hauzhi View Post
    First of all. What is a win condition in this game?

    Having a mount?
    Get skilled enough for some type of content?

    Define win.
    Skipping time locks or gaining power via Blizzard sanctioned credit card transactions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    But no power unobtainable via in game methods /reopens threads
    That condition is irrelevant.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinaul View Post
    Until the gold you get with tokens and the mounts you buy with your weekly allowance also give you skills to be good in the game and not just outgear somethings so your bought ilvl makes you on par with a fresh capped toon... No, it's not pay to win
    This condition is irrelevant. Buying ilvl is buying power. That is part of what P2W is.

  14. #1474
    So if I bought one token of gold 2 years ago, but used 250k of the gold I farmed myself to buy a boost now, thats pay 2 win by some peoples definition. Thats the fucked up logic people are using.

    Which is wrong, because WoW do not use a direct transaction for power, so by definition, its not pay 2 win.

    It is as easy as that. No amount of mental gymnastics can change that.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  15. #1475
    The Lightbringer The-Shan's Avatar
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    Its pay to win in every sense of the phrase.
    thinly veiled high elf thread

  16. #1476
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    So if I bought one token of gold 2 years ago, but used 250k of the gold I farmed myself to buy a boost now, thats pay 2 win by some peoples definition. Thats the fucked up logic people are using.

    Which is wrong, because WoW do not use a direct transaction for power, so by definition, its not pay 2 win.

    It is as easy as that. No amount of mental gymnastics can change that.
    So you believe that by adding a second step into the transaction it stops being P2W?

    So by that logic, you dont pay to watch a movie in the theatre, but rather you pay for a ticket, and the ticket grants you access to the movie so movies are free?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  17. #1477
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Sure it does. The currency and the system for that currency matter. If gold was given out in a trickle and primary gained by micro transaction then it would be pay to win. If it was sourced by Blizzard it would be closer to pay to win. If the win was coming from Blizzard it would be pay to win.

    As it is the win comes from players after using a normal in-game currency. It doesn't matter the source of that currency as we all pay at some point in order to get gold. Because of the subscription price right? If the subscription price has not made the game pay to win then obviously indirect links to real money are not relevant.

    - - - Updated - - -



    "I also told you that I can't estimate the times but told you that I can sometimes clear a zone of Anima quests before my HS is off cool down"
    "It was pretty easy to clear the 11 or so Anima quests up each day in an hour of play. Even opening chests can work towards requirements on some callings to make it even faster."

    I answered it. I just didn't give the answer you and him were apparently looking for. My estimate of up to 2,500 is not wrong. You can get 1,500 to 2,500 so when talking about ranges you include the low end and the top end. Right? Both you and him are looking for any little detail so you can shout at the top of your lungs how wrong it is. When it still doesn't change that there is a relatively easy way to get at least 150k a week.

    Is it practical for everyone? Nope. But that wasn't the original question was it? Let me guess you don't even know the original question right? Why didn't you attack the other poster for not answer questions as well? Weird right?

    Have you played the game recently to time how long it takes to do a calling? You don't need to be a raider in order to do World Quests quick. World Content gear tops off at 194 with Covenant gear at 196. It is extremely easy to gear alts to out gear world content. 190 is not very under geared for world content. You clearly have not played the game recently at all if you think that is the case. I also never said it was casual. I said after set up it is relatively easy to do a calling which it objectively is. 3 chests or rares is easy. 4 to 5 world quests is easy. Two floors of Torghast is easy (layer 1). All of the callings are easy.

    If you struggle, even at 190 gear, to finish any calling then the problem is skill level of the player and not the game.
    Clearing 11 anima quests in an hour is like doing 4 WQ in 20 mins. Thanks for confirming that it's approx 20 mins for a calling.

    No one said clearing WQ on a 190 was hard. I said that scaling is still a factor at that ilvl and can contribute to it taking longer than a raid character where scaling doesn't really matter.

    Being wrong is no excuse to attack others. The claim was getting a token with little effort in a weeks play with 15 characters. I have proven that it isn't. 35 hours a week is effort. 150k which is your new claim you have added right now is not a token.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  18. #1478
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Clearing 11 anima quests in an hour is like doing 4 WQ in 20 mins. Thanks for confirming that it's approx 20 mins for a calling.

    No one said clearing WQ on a 190 was hard. I said that scaling is still a factor at that ilvl and can contribute to it taking longer than a raid character where scaling doesn't really matter.

    Being wrong is no excuse to attack others. The claim was getting a token with little effort in a weeks play with 15 characters. I have proven that it isn't. 35 hours a week is effort. 150k which is your new claim you have added right now is not a token.
    I'm really surprised there has been any pushback at all on the approximation of 20minutes to complete the WQ for a calling - i think its a very fair and even generous estimate. Considering if you get an unfortunate bunch of WQ spread out, there would EASILY be 5-10 mins of travel alone, by the time you start the calling, travel to the right area, travel between the WQ, then return - I think 20 mins is extremely fair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  19. #1479
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you believe that by adding a second step into the transaction it stops being P2W?

    So by that logic, you dont pay to watch a movie in the theatre, but rather you pay for a ticket, and the ticket grants you access to the movie so movies are free?
    Thats not the same logic. Like, come on.

    And yes, its not pay 2 win because if you buy the token, its not straight forward that you use it to win anything. If you buy the ticket in the cinema to watch Avengers: Paid Ultron to Win, the ticket is for that movie. You bought it to watch that spesific thing.

    So your analogy is horrible.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  20. #1480
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Thats not the same logic. Like, come on.

    And yes, its not pay 2 win because if you buy the token, its not straight forward that you use it to win anything. If you buy the ticket in the cinema to watch Avengers: Paid Ultron to Win, the ticket is for that movie. You bought it to watch that spesific thing.

    So your analogy is horrible.
    So just to be very clear, you honestly believe that adding an extra step between the credit card and the gold somehow fundamentally changes the transaction? Even when that system is full automated, including price?

    Because yes, you bought the ticket to watch Avengers, and that is fixed..................just like you paid for the token to obtain gold...............Are you suggesting that some people exchange their money for gold with no intention of spending any of that gold? Just to........spend money?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

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