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  1. #1641
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    I find it a positive change. Means that, by discussion, people are actually zoning in on the concept and giving it a name that people can generally agree with.

    "P2W" is definitely a giant umbrella, with multiple shades of severity - and it's probably why the topic is so divisive.
    Indeed.

    This is also why the thread is going as it is.

    Just for me, I find it weird to calculate other players as being P2W, that something is P2W because other players exist.

    But as we have it now by the development of the thread,

    we have direct P2W by boost (Though, subjective to people if you actually gain power or if you just are able to actually play new content)
    we have indirect P2W by token/TCG (Though, subjective once as well but they are hand in hand, if one is P2W, then the other is too)

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    True it is trade infaltion, but its infaltion never the less caused by an outside influence namely the token.
    Well, it helps the market more than the two other options which are, ToS breaking gold and ToS breaking game-time.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  2. #1642
    Quote Originally Posted by Vampyrr View Post
    You arent buying POWER you are buying currency. Then you have to rely on players willing to do things for you for that currency. It is 100% the playerbase giving you "power" not Blizzard. Thus it does not meet the criteria. And you dont have to buy tokens to get gold. In fact for people who really want to make money, tokens are one of the most inefficient and expensive routes to do so. You can make substantially more money in game then buying tokens.
    But I'm buying currency to buy power. P2W /Thread

  3. #1643
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    But I'm buying currency to buy power. P2W /Thread
    Internet Service Providers - they sell you a service aka internet access which you can use for learning good things or performing criminal activities.

    This means your ISP are criminals, right...?!

    You've been posting the same crap short sentences over many pages... you should really not be allowed to post online.
    “Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein”
    -------------------------------------------------

  4. #1644
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampyrr View Post
    You arent buying POWER you are buying currency. Then you have to rely on players willing to do things for you for that currency. It is 100% the playerbase giving you "power" not Blizzard. Thus it does not meet the criteria. And you dont have to buy tokens to get gold. In fact for people who really want to make money, tokens are one of the most inefficient and expensive routes to do so. You can make substantially more money in game then buying tokens.
    Currency is power because it gives you everything in the game. Literally everything. You can get boosts for everything.
    Blizzard openly selling you that power for cash is as pay2win as it can be.

    You don't rely on anything. You know others will give you what you want 100% for the right amount of gold.
    You are not giving that cash to your "playerbase" , you give it to Blizzard. You don't have to buy tokens but its more convenient to do so , another definition of pay2win design. Whales that throw thousands a month don't care about efficiency in gold acquisition.
    Lets take a time frame of 1 hour . I can "make" a million in the few minutes it takes to process the payment can you do more in game ?

  5. #1645
    Quote Originally Posted by Pretorian View Post
    Internet Service Providers - they sell you a service aka internet access which you can use for learning good things or performing criminal activities.

    This means your ISP are criminals, right...?!

    You've been posting the same crap short sentences over many pages... you should really not be allowed to post online.
    There is no legit use that isnt p2w with token. Too stupid to understand the argument but still talking shit about other posters.

  6. #1646
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    You are not giving that cash to your "playerbase" , you give it to Blizzard. You don't have to buy tokens but its more convenient to do so , another definition of pay2win design.
    The token does give most of the money to the player base just as the gold comes from the player base. $15 of every token has to go to a player. Blizzard only makes $5 as a service fee. The gold and remaining money is given to the players involved. Blizzard isn't openly selling the currency, what you call power, because it is the players that are selling it. They are just using Blizzard as the middle man. The same as ebay/paypal.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #1647
    How is this thread still going? It's the same people posting from 2 weeks ago, saying the same stuff over and over. I quickly got tired of it and stepped away, but man, you guys have got perseverance!

  8. #1648
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    There is no legit use that isnt p2w with token. Too stupid to understand the argument but still talking shit about other posters.
    I've stated before how I used the token to either buy mounts from the shop or pay for the monthly subscription with gold; never boosts from other players.
    “Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein”
    -------------------------------------------------

  9. #1649
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Can i pay to win professional players to help me score high level ranks?. Only if they agree and also agree to ask for "Gold" for their time. If i don't have the gold and i pay to for Token = Pay to Win.
    A gold for service transaction is not pay to win just because you can link real money somewhere down stream. That means the subscription can be linked to any gold and thus anything in the game is pay to win. You keep changing definitions or creating new exceptions in order to keep your definition is the only "true" one. A token is a service that trades $15 for X gold. Blizzard charges $5 to facilitate that service in a safe manner.

    What you do with gold after that is independent of how you got that gold.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #1650
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    What i do with gold after that, is using the gold to win in an unfair economical advantage.
    But it isn't an unfair economical advantage because other players have had to earn that gold to begin with. Everyone has the same chance at earning gold in the game and offering it for sale through the token. What they do with the gold or what you do with the $15 is not related to the initial transaction which was a trade. Using your logic if I person that buys a token buys my BoE and I then buy a carry I am also paying to win.

    Right? Because it is linked to real money. Where does that link end? It also means that you can't tell a pay to win gold transaction from a non-pay to win gold transaction since gold mixes. It is not kept separate.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #1651
    Quote Originally Posted by Pretorian View Post
    I've stated before how I used the token to either buy mounts from the shop or pay for the monthly subscription with gold; never boosts from other players.
    In that case you aren't a buyer, you're the seller and not part of the group people discussed here.
    Secondary your participation is never the less part of the issue. Devs need the whales to continue funding your sub so they have to continue including more things to swipe for to keep the whales paying. That means more paywalls and mandatory tolerance for boosting as its driving sales. There is no way to participate in this without negatively affecting other players.

    edit - for the record i got my tokens too, im no moral apostle telling anyone to stop but i believe in calling things how they are.
    Last edited by mbit; 2021-06-14 at 06:02 PM.

  12. #1652
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    It is unfair, when a dude comes to the game, Pays Blizzard real money, get tons of gold, and is able to pay his way with that gold to win in whatever he likes.
    For every token sold a player already had that advantage over others. Because gold is not created it is only transferred. All the person is doing is paying another person for their time. Every player has the opportunity to buy a carry with gold. Every person then buys a token with gold already had that opportunity and choose not to.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #1653
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Gold is being transfer thanks to USD spent on them....Used to give economical power to the player, and take advantage from it....P2W
    It takes that power from one player and gives it to another. It is a micro transaction but what you do with the gold after that has no bearing on real cash being used.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #1654
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    It "sells" gold to another player, so he can achieve Power easily by just using the credit card. = P2W
    A pay-to-win model is one where transactions made with real money give you access to gameplay advantages, which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself.
    Power that another player had to willingly give up. Having gold doesn't give you anything it is what you do with the gold that matters. Your own definition provided contradicts your claim. The advantage you say another is getting is equaled by the person choosing to sell the gold. Because they already had it. You can gain gold with reasonable but not excessive effort through the game play itself.

    The sale of gold is a micro transaction and not pay to win. Gold inherently has the ability to buy wins regardless of RMT being involved.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #1655
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    In that case you aren't a buyer, you're the seller and not part of the group people discussed here.
    Secondary your participation is never the less part of the issue. Devs need the whales to continue funding your sub so they have to continue including more things to swipe for to keep the whales paying. That means more paywalls and mandatory tolerance for boosting as its driving sales. There is no way to participate in this without negatively affecting other players.

    edit - for the record i got my tokens too, im no moral apostle telling anyone to stop but i believe in calling things how they are.
    Alas, there are a few believing that any connection to the token is P2W. Buying, selling, paying people with the gold from the token, upgrading the game with the token, buying random stuff on the auction house with the gold from the token, receiving gold from a random sale of a buyer who sold a token for gold..

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    It "sells" gold to another player, so he can achieve Power easily by just using the credit card. = P2W

    A pay-to-win model is one where transactions made with real money give you access to gameplay advantages, which cannot be equaled or counteracted with a reasonable but not excessive amount of effort through the gameplay itself.
    Honestly. I've repeated this before. It literally only sells you legal to trade game-time. Nothing more. @rhorle 's example is correct. Another person trades you.

    And this is why the indirect P2W argument was added because people couldn't flag it as direct P2W, like the boost could be (though, minor).
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  16. #1656
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    But I'm buying currency to buy power. P2W /Thread
    Buying food and soda at a store gives you energy to play therefor grocery stores are p2w

  17. #1657
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    By paying "Cash" for it.

    Having gold gives you the economy power to buy from the AH or other players "progression".
    Yeah you won the forums. You. Win. Its all a scam and pay to win. Yes, we all admit it.
    Now go on and do something else. Kkthxbye
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  18. #1658
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    By paying "Cash" for it. Having gold gives you the economy power to buy from the AH or other players "progression".
    But another player is choosing to give you their "economy power". Because they had the gold you are buying.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    @rhorle example is incorrect. You are paying (even if you are trading gold from other player to you) for gold. You are not farming that gold, you are not putting the time and effort to achieve that "economical status". You paid in cash to win it.
    You play the other player that already "won" that gold and had that "economical status". Because another player has to farm for it putting in the time and effort to achieve it. $15 of that $20 goes to the player for their gold. You pay for the gold and not what you do with the gold.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #1659
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    @rhorle example is incorrect. You are paying (even if you are trading gold from other player to you) for gold. You are not farming that gold, you are not putting the time and effort to achieve that "economical status". You paid in cash to win it.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Pay "Real Money" to get gold instead of farming it = Pay to Win
    Token is slow and a bad way to make money. The people with money arent buying tokens to get it lol... the "free2play" person will be able to make substantially more money and faster and cheaper other ways if that is the only concern. Not p2w

  20. #1660
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    You Paid USD to get an advantage is still Pay to Win. Even if the other player got it legally, farming it, using his time for it....But Blizzard put a price ticket on it and sold it. That is I Paid Cash and Won.
    How is it pay to win? It doesn't even fit the definition you gave earlier. You have moved back from "Buying a carry is pay to win" to "Simply having gold is pay to win". Blizzard only put a price of $5 on it. You pay more to the player then you do to Blizzard because every token is required to pay out $15 either in game time or balance. It is still a player to player transaction that Blizzard facilitates to stop scams/fraud.

    You don't win anything by having gold. Even if you did another player is giving up their win in order for you to have it so the advantage you get is an advantage lost by another player. You paid cash for gold. There is no inherent win.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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