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  1. #1681
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I'm purchasing currency for real life cash, and then I'm spending that currency on power.

    P2W. /Thread
    It isn't exclusive to you, anyone else and doesn't require you to purchase currency for real life cash. Further you aren't buying power unless you are buying gear off the AH which in turn has been farmed by other players and sold for in game currency which also isn't required to be purchased by real life currency. Too many things don't fit in the neat little "black and white" definition.

  2. #1682
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
    The only player power there is the gear:

    1) I'm getting them earlier, as he has to wait for the tier to be cleared and sells to start going out.
    2) Same drop chance as me, there's no guarantee that either of us will get the BiS to drop first.
    3) It's ridiculously easy to make money in this game
    4) What advantage is all max level mounts? Talk about a reach lol
    1) Yes. There has to be someone to sell. The buyer uses their credit card to buy the gear from you. They have gained an advantage over every one else not in the same position as you. P2W.

    2) Not the same chance of a drop. The chance is probability it won't drop multiplied by the chance it won't drop for each individual player that an item can drop for. I e. .8 ^n where n is the number of players it can drop for. As n increases prob it won't drop decreases therefore prob it will drop somewhere is increased.

    3) For you. If we just take away the RMT part of selling boosts and pretend it doesn't happen, the amount of gold a player like you can make is huge. This argument really has no bearing on P2W.

    4) It is prestigious. Believe it or not some people will pay a lot of gold (or money) for the right vanity item. Mounts are included.

  3. #1683
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No "gotcha" moment at all, but doing it on your main is not the same as doing it on 15 different characters, many of which would be WELL below 200 ilvl. The claim was that you can "easily" make nearly 200,000G per week, and the example you provided was leveling 15 characters to max level, and completing all available callings on all 15 characters every week.
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Edited the rest out to specifically ask a question about this - how exactly does an average player make 150,000 gold per week, "easily"?
    Nope. You stated 150,000 gold per week and changed it later. Doing something on a main and the alt will be the same because world content doesn't change. I've already told you that there is no reason to expect alts to be have low gear 6 months into Shadowlands. Have you even played the expansion to know how easy it is to obtain gear? You keep trying to find any little thing you can to dismiss the entire thing.

    I never failed to acknowledge that it equates to 25 hours per week. Just because I didn't spell that out didn't mean I failed. Lol. Stop trying to find every little thing to say "Gotcha". I never said it would take "no time" in order to do. You asked how an average player could do it "easily". Once you level the alts up it can easily be done. Easy doesn't mean minimal time per week. Doing callings is relatively easy.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #1684
    Quote Originally Posted by InflaterMouse View Post
    It isn't exclusive to you, anyone else and doesn't require you to purchase currency for real life cash. Further you aren't buying power unless you are buying gear off the AH which in turn has been farmed by other players and sold for in game currency which also isn't required to be purchased by real life currency. Too many things don't fit in the neat little "black and white" definition.
    The main reason to buy power is to reach the end game goal. The only exception with gear is for transmog fashion. If you are merely buying gear but have no intention of completing the hardest content or are merely stonewalled by it, the person who paid for the end goal still has an advantage over you because they didn't have to waste their time with buying power and still achieved what you didn't.

  5. #1685
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It's not "I personally" anything.

    It is not an advantage to skip 50 levels that everyone else finished years ago. For it to be an advantage, other people have to not already have the bonus those 50 levels would have given.

    If they sold the boost off the bat, you'd have a point. They didn't.
    If the boost went to max level, you'd have a point. It doesn't.

    As such, you're not skipping anything that hasn't already been done by 99.9% of the playerbase. Nobody cares about leveling.
    You are comparing apples and oranges again. It's not an advantage over someone who is already 60. It's an advantage of someone leveling from 1. If it wasn't such an advantage then no one would buy it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So the claim wasn't wrong and I never attacked anyone. You haven't proven that it is hard. You didn't even prove anything at all let alone present something new. The main discussion was with another poster and you just copied what they said with a few accusations of attacks mixed in. I never said that it wouldn't be effort to get 150k gold with alts. I said it is relatively easy because callings are easy. I never said it would be super quick.

    150k is not a new claim nor is it my claim. The 150k number was stated by the poster I was referring to. You are clearly confused if you think were discussing an entirely different claim. That is why my numbers stop at 156k for both the low and high end. Because it met the 150k outlined by the first person.
    A lot of words to try and deflect from at best, an extra part time job, as being easy. It's not. And that's without actually playing a character. It is not easy. It's almost slavery. 35 hours of play for a $15 subscription is not easy. Easy would be working an extra hour or two and buying the gold outright.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  6. #1686
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    A lot of words to try and deflect from at best, an extra part time job, as being easy. It's not. And that's without actually playing a character. It is not easy. It's almost slavery. 35 hours of play for a $15 subscription is not easy. Easy would be working an extra hour or two and buying the gold outright.
    An 8-hour shift sitting in a chair watching a computer screen is loads easier then a 8-hour shift working as a lumber jack. Callings are easy to do. If you've played the game recently you would know this. Repeating something easy is also easy to do. I never claimed that it wouldn't take a lot of time only that 20 mins was not extremely generous.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #1687
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    You are comparing apples and oranges again. It's not an advantage over someone who is already 60. It's an advantage of someone leveling from 1. If it wasn't such an advantage then no one would buy it.
    Yes, and? You're failing to explain what the bad part is.

    It is not pay to win because you're comparing it to the wrong subgroup. You literally cannot win with a boost. It has no endgame quality to it, and thus, cannot "win" you the game.

    Yes, it's obviously convenient compared to starting from 1, but your "complaint" reads more like an advertisement FOR the boost, considering it has no explanation in how it "wins" you the game. "Being convenient" is not "winning" by any stretch of the imagination.

    Enough people started from 1 and then quit long before endgame to prove value in playerbase retention to make value to the boost, hence why it exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  8. #1688
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    An 8-hour shift sitting in a chair watching a computer screen is loads easier then a 8-hour shift working as a lumber jack. Callings are easy to do. If you've played the game recently you would know this. Repeating something easy is also easy to do. I never claimed that it wouldn't take a lot of time only that 20 mins was not extremely generous.
    Comparing a white collar and a blue collar job. You want some apples with your oranges? If not then your point is low effort.

  9. #1689
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It is not pay to win because you're comparing it to the wrong subgroup. You literally cannot win with a boost. It has no endgame quality to it, and thus, cannot "win" you the game.
    Endgame quality is not the definition of power advantages. Using that logic if you can buy heroic raid gear then it isn't pay to win because it isn't the best end game loot. So you didn't win you just bought second place. A level boost is buying power and grants an advantage. It is directly bought from Blizzard. It is paying to get an advantage over others.

    In the grand scheme of things is it a big advantage? Nope. But it is still one and thus is pay to win.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro-Djinn View Post
    Comparing a white collar and a blue collar job. You want some apples with your oranges? If not then your point is low effort.
    Is that all you have to discredit it? You can't do any better then semantics? Okay. Standing in an assembly lining using your tools to tightening five bolts is easier then being a lumber jack. Weird how the point doesn't change and you've got nothing to actually discuss.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #1690
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Endgame quality is not the definition of power advantages. Using that logic if you can buy heroic raid gear then it isn't pay to win because it isn't the best end game loot.
    That's not what "endgame quality" means. It is intentionally vague, as is Blizzard's own definition.

    The boost never takes you to max level. (Unless we include prepatches, in which case, a new max level is weeks away.)
    The boost does not give you gear beyond basic gear for your level, and definitely not raid quality.

    In no way, shape, or form does Blizzard's form of the boost touch their endgame.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  11. #1691
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Nope. You stated 150,000 gold per week and changed it later. Doing something on a main and the alt will be the same because world content doesn't change. I've already told you that there is no reason to expect alts to be have low gear 6 months into Shadowlands. Have you even played the expansion to know how easy it is to obtain gear? You keep trying to find any little thing you can to dismiss the entire thing.

    I never failed to acknowledge that it equates to 25 hours per week. Just because I didn't spell that out didn't mean I failed. Lol. Stop trying to find every little thing to say "Gotcha". I never said it would take "no time" in order to do. You asked how an average player could do it "easily". Once you level the alts up it can easily be done. Easy doesn't mean minimal time per week. Doing callings is relatively easy.
    It was changed from 150k to the current price of a token, which is quickly approaching 200k. The number is irrelevant, it was always discussing the value of a token. So you are now claiming that you can complete all possible WQ in EXACTLY the same time on a 170ilvl character, compared to a 225 or higher character? That there is "no difference" between a freshly dinged character and one fully decked out in raid / pvp gear?

    So now we are spending 3 and a half hours to 5 hours EVERY DAY, after leveling FIFTEEN characters to max level, AND completing at least the full campaign, to get them to roughly 190 ilvl (still well short of a main) - that time investment alone is quite substantial. All this to obtain substantially less than the value of a token, and with a SUBSTANTIAL time investment, equal to a part time job, all the way up to a full time job. And please, stop claiming its just me pointing out how ridiculous this claim is, others have as well.

    If you think spending substantial time over WEEKS to level 15 characters to max level, completing the campaign FIFTEEN times, and playing all fifteen toons for between 3.5 hours (your estimate) and 5 hours (my + others estimate) per day, 7 days a week equals an "easy" way to get a tokens worth of gold, even though it falls well short of that target, I really dont know what else to tell you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  12. #1692
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    In no way, shape, or form does Blizzard's form of the boost touch their endgame.
    Pay to win has never required end game content. You can still gain power advantages at any level with paying to win. Buying the advantage of 50 levels directly from Blizzard is paying to win.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  13. #1693
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Pay to win has never required end game content. You can still gain power advantages at any level with paying to win. Buying the advantage of 50 levels directly from Blizzard is paying to win.
    It is not winning, because you are not winning anything.

    It is paying to catch up, at the very worst.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  14. #1694
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    An 8-hour shift sitting in a chair watching a computer screen is loads easier then a 8-hour shift working as a lumber jack. Callings are easy to do. If you've played the game recently you would know this. Repeating something easy is also easy to do. I never claimed that it wouldn't take a lot of time only that 20 mins was not extremely generous.
    Now we are just sitting at our desk watching a computer screen? Not actively playing the game? This shows how disingenuous you are being. its 3.5-5 hours of gameplay, with zero downtime other than while on flight paths, actively playing the game - not "watching a computer screen". You also have now compared it to manual labor - and one of the most physical forms of it, rather than say, a plant monitoring job where someone............sits at a desk watching a computer screen. Why did you say Lumberjack?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It is not winning, because you are not winning anything.

    It is paying to catch up, at the very worst.
    For the 400th time in this thread alone, the term P2W does not require "winning" to be valid, it simply requires gaining an advantage.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  15. #1695
    Quote Originally Posted by InflaterMouse View Post
    It isn't exclusive to you, anyone else and doesn't require you to purchase currency for real life cash. Further you aren't buying power unless you are buying gear off the AH which in turn has been farmed by other players and sold for in game currency which also isn't required to be purchased by real life currency. Too many things don't fit in the neat little "black and white" definition.
    Purchase gold with cash -> spend gold on power = P2W

    /Thread

  16. #1696
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    It was changed from 150k to the current price of a token, which is quickly approaching 200k. The number is irrelevant, it was always discussing the value of a token.
    The number only became irrelevant when you had nothing else to discredit what I said. You originally stated 150k which wasn't the price of a token at that time. The WoW token is 190k currently and was mid 180's yesterday. Because I bought a token. World Content doesn't scale and you can easily out gear it. 170 is ridiculously low for 6 months into the expansion.

    I have never said the time investment was not substantial. You keep fixating on things that was never said as if it proves the entire thing is invalid. Only a few others have pointed it out who parrot almost exactly what you keep arguing. Suspicious no? One of them even acted as if they've argued the point before when they haven't. Weird no?

    Doing callings over multiple character is an easy way to earn gold. Do you think that is hard to do? What skill does it take? What makes it hard? Do you routinely have a challenging time doing your daily callings? Have you struggled to gear past 190 in the game? Just because it takes a while to do does not mean it is also hard to do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    It is not winning, because you are not winning anything. It is paying to catch up, at the very worst.
    Hiow can you catch up if you haven't "Won" 50 levels? That is the advantage. There has never been anything about definitions for pay to win that require relevant content as part of it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Now we are just sitting at our desk watching a computer screen? Not actively playing the game? This shows how disingenuous you are being. its 3.5-5 hours of gameplay, with zero downtime other than while on flight paths, actively playing the game - not "watching a computer screen". You also have now compared it to manual labor - and one of the most physical forms of it, rather than say, a plant monitoring job where someone............sits at a desk watching a computer screen. Why did you say Lumberjack?
    Wow. That went over your head. Sitting at a screen for an 8 hour shift was not talking about playing WoW. It was talking about a job like a security guard that watches a computer monitor their entire shift and how that is objectively easier then a job like a lumber jack that requires high physical labor in a dangerous environment. It isn't dishonest to use an example of things that are easy even though it is over a long period of time when it is relevant to the discussion.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #1697
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Is that all you have to discredit it? You can't do any better then semantics? Okay. Standing in an assembly lining using your tools to tightening five bolts is easier then being a lumber jack. Weird how the point doesn't change and you've got nothing to actually discuss.
    "Doing manual labor is different from doing manual labor".

    Assembly line workers are blue collar, just like lumber jacks.

  18. #1698
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Purchase gold with cash -> spend gold on power = P2W /Thread
    What if you spend it on a mount? Is that still pay to win? What if they buy a mount with all but 10 of that gold and the remainder is earned in game. Is a boost still pay to win? When you pay real money you are paying to trade another person time spent farming gold. That is what you pay for. What you do with the gold is irrelevant to the real money being spent.

    It isn't pay to win to use that gold on normal game things.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro-Djinn View Post
    "Doing manual labor is different from doing manual labor". Assembly line workers are blue collar, just like lumber jacks.
    But with different levels of manual labor required. The reason why I switched it to an assembly worker was because they were both blue collar. Do you not remember taking issue with the collar color being different? Do you also not understand the purpose of the examples? To indicate that the time something takes does not denote the difficulty of doing that job.

    Not all 8 hour shifts of different jobs are the same effort, or "difficulty". Some jobs are easier then others.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #1699
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Hiow can you catch up if you haven't "Won" 50 levels? That is the advantage. There has never been anything about definitions for pay to win that require relevant content as part of it.
    Because to say you "won" 50 levels stretches the word "winning" to a limit unheard of by mankind.

    You do not "win" levels, you are given them. Others earned them, most likely two years before you even had the option to be given them.

    To say you "won" that way is beyond laughable.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  20. #1700
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Wow. That went over your head. Sitting at a screen for an 8 hour shift was not talking about playing WoW. It was talking about a job like a security guard that watches a computer monitor their entire shift and how that is objectively easier then a job like a lumber jack that requires high physical labor in a dangerous environment. It isn't dishonest to use an example of things that are easy even though it is over a long period of time when it is relevant to the discussion.
    Ok so you consider being a computer programmer to be "objectively easier" than a Lumberjack? What about a drone operator Vs a Lumberjack? Is being a Drone operator objectively easier? I mean they "just sit in front of a computer screen"...One is clearly objectively more physically demanding, but to claim one is "objectively easier" than the other is not accurate, even in the scenario you presented with a Security Officer Vs a Lumberjack - most security jobs are night shift, and working nights is very challenging. It also brings with it additional stress, health issues, and depending on the job, could have very high levels of responsibility and pressure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

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