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  1. #1701
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Because to say you "won" 50 levels stretches the word "winning" to a limit unheard of by mankind. You do not "win" levels, you are given them. Others earned them, most likely two years before you even had the option to be given them. To say you "won" that way is beyond laughable.
    Notice how you said stretches it. Pay to win is Pay to win. You can't just subjectively remove things because you personally don't see a problem with them. I also don't have a problem with the level boosts but they are still technically pay to win according to the usual definitions. If Blizzard sold mythic raid gear only after hall of fame closed is it still pay to win? Others earned it likely months before the option is available. To say you "won" that gear is laughable. Right?

    But you'll make some excuse up for why winning at end game is competently different. Leave the feelings out of it. Would gaining 60 levels be pay to win? Would going from 50 to 60 be pay to win? Would gaining 40 ranks of Renown be pay to win? Those all encompass levels. If buying levels in one regard is not pay to win then it has to be in all regards right? Because it is the same power being bought.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Ok so you consider being a computer programmer to be "objectively easier" than a Lumberjack? What about a drone operator Vs a Lumberjack? Is being a Drone operator objectively easier? I mean they "just sit in front of a computer screen"...One is clearly objectively more physically demanding, but to claim one is "objectively easier" than the other is not accurate, even in the scenario you presented with a Security Officer Vs a Lumberjack - most security jobs are night shift, and working nights is very challenging. It also brings with it additional stress, health issues, and depending on the job, could have very high levels of responsibility and pressure.
    So you get it. Just because it takes you 3.5 to 5 hours a day to do easy things does not mean it is hard.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  2. #1702
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But with different levels of manual labor required. Do you not understand the purpose of the examples?
    Are we now having a discussion about "my physical exhaustion is greater than your physical exhaustion"? As that is your current talking point.

    To bring it back to WoW: What is your current stance on gold obtained through tokens. Has it changed?

  3. #1703
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you get it. Just because it takes you 3.5 to 5 hours a day to do easy things does not mean it is hard.
    You are very, VERY confused. If someone was talking about a HOBBY, not something they are being paid for but a HOBBY, and I said "yeah mate, its super easy, it only takes a commitment of 25 to 35 hours every week!" they would look at me like I was having a stroke. When I explained that is repeating the same tasks 15 times every day, 7 days a week, they would get even more confused. When I then explained that this isnt even the actual hobby itself, but rather the "chore" component of said hobby, they would laugh me out of the building.

    In no reality is a 25-35 hour commitment PER WEEK "easy", even if the task itself is not particularly demanding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  4. #1704
    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro-Djinn View Post
    Are we now having a discussion about "my physical exhaustion is greater than your physical exhaustion"? As that is your current talking point. To bring it back to WoW: What is your current stance on gold obtained through tokens. Has it changed?
    If you don't know what is being talked about why are you respond and trying to refute points being made? The topic was about doing callings for 3.5 to 5 hours a day being "hard". I called it easy because callings themselves are easy. The difficulty does not change just because the time you do it increases.

    I don't believe I've ever told you my stance on tokens. Do you mind sharing who your previous account was if I did? I'm sure you can read the thread since it was stated with in the last few pages if you actually cared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    In no reality is a 25-35 hour commitment PER WEEK "easy", even if the task itself is not particularly demanding.
    The difficulty does not change just because the length changes. If it isn't demanding then it is easy. Don't call people confused if you are arguing with the wrong terminology.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  5. #1705
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The difficulty does not change just because the time you do it increases.
    Yes, it absolutely does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  6. #1706
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yes, it absolutely does.
    How does a calling get harder just because you've done it on four characters already? What part of the game changes to make it more difficult?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #1707
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The difficulty does not change just because the length changes. If it isn't demanding then it is easy. Don't call people confused if you are arguing with the wrong terminology.
    There is absolutely no doubt in any reasonable persons mind that this is false. Time investment can take an easy task and make it challenging. Flipping a coin is easy, right? Now do it non-stop for 5 hours every single day, 7 days a week, and tell me it is still just as easy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How does a calling get harder just because you've done it on four characters already? What part of the game changes to make it more difficult?
    I never once said the calling itself gets more challenging, but the process of farming the same content for 5 hours a day, 7 days a week is SUBSTANTIALLY more challenging than doing it once.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  8. #1708
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    There is absolutely no doubt in any reasonable persons mind that this is absolutely false. Time investment can take an easy task and make it challenging. Flipping a coin is easy, right? Now do it non-stop for 5 hours every single day, 7 days a week, and tell me it is still just as easy.
    The task of flipping a coin is still easy though. Are you saying you've never played WoW for 5 hours and found it physically taxing to go an hour or two at a time? Have you found it difficult to type after discussing in this thread for days?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #1709
    I am Murloc! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    You can buy token, exchange them for gold, buy boost and BOE but beyond that there is no win because you still have to account for skill in PvE and PvP. I ran into new player who boosted/bought tokens and they ain't winning because they don't know shit.

  10. #1710
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If you don't know what is being talked about why are you respond and trying to refute points being made? The topic was about doing callings for 3.5 to 5 hours a day being "hard". I called it easy because callings themselves are easy. The difficulty does not change just because the time you do it increases.

    I don't believe I've ever told you my stance on tokens. Do you mind sharing who your previous account was if I did? I'm sure you can read the thread since it was stated with in the last few pages if you actually cared.
    A question with a question while providing a lack of evidence. Well your not making your side any more reasonable.

    Anyway last talking point I remeber was pointing out how I could hypothetically use a token for a gold and buy a carry. I remember you deflected that and said I only hypothetically bought gold and didn't want to engage in the black market discussion of how people do carry runs.

  11. #1711
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I never once said the calling itself gets more challenging, but the process of farming the same content for 5 hours a day, 7 days a week is SUBSTANTIALLY more challenging than doing it once.
    The challenge remains the same if the calling itself remains the same.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro-Djinn View Post
    A question with a question while providing a lack of evidence. Well your not making your side any more reasonable.
    You stated you knew my stance so why would I have to repeat what you already knew? Which means if there is a lack of evidence you didn't know my stance to even ask if it is the same. You did only buy gold though. What you do with gold doesn't matter. Carries are not a black market. They have existed since the start of the game and is something that is not against the rules. Why do you think something 100% legit is a black market?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #1712
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The challenge remains the same if the calling itself remains the same.
    Absolutely false - and you KNOW its false. Doing something for 20 minutes is not the same as doing it for 5 hours straight. You are squirming - and trying to argue semantics and altering your argument constantly. Your initial argument was that it is "easy to make a tokens worth of gold in a week" and the example you gave was using 15 max level characters to complete callings to earn the gold.

    Now you are arguing about if you meant 150k or 190k, even though your example falls short in both scenarios. Then you tried to argue that a 20 minute average was unreasonable, so we used YOUR number of 14 minutes. Then you have tried to say that all 15 characters would be well geared, or at least over 200 ilvl, so now we are gearing all 15 as well. Even then we are at 25 - 35 HOURS every week to maintain this, you still say that is not a big deal, and that farming the same wqs fifteen times every day is not "hard", and absolutely no different to doing it once, even with such a high time investment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  13. #1713
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Absolutely false - and you KNOW its false.
    Make up your mind. Does the difficulty of a challenge change just because you've repeated it 4 times already? Does the game make it harder? Does it make it easier? Or does it remain the same? Have you never played a game for 5 hours straight? Have you never seen that PC gaming stereotype of getting lost in a game and finding out it is 8 am instead of 1 am?

    Just because you find it difficulty to repeat things does not mean the challenge actually changes. It may be hard for you to personally repeat things but that does not mean it is actually challenging. I have never argued if I meant 190k or 150k. I have always argued the same exact numbers. You are literally the one that started at 150k and change it to 200k. I only pointed out the price of the token as 190k currently since you were updating your argument based on its price. That doesn't mean I changed the numbers in my earlier posts retroactively. Lol.

    Why wouldn't all alts be reasonably geared? Item level 190 is not "well geared". You clearly haven't played the game recently to think so. It is 6 months into a patch so being resonably geared is a good expectation. Even more so if you were spending time on a scheme such as this. Right? You don't need to be over 200 item level in order to breeze through world content. When was the last time you actually played the game?

    I am curious. Have you found it hard to post responses in this thread? Because you say repetition over a week is a hard thing to do. Wouldn't the repetition of responding over all this time be increasingly hard for you? Or do you find it just as easy as the first few times you typed out a response and hit post?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #1714
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Make up your mind. Does the difficulty of a challenge change just because you've repeated it 4 times already? Does the game make it harder? Does it make it easier? Or does it remain the same? Have you never played a game for 5 hours straight? Have you never seen that PC gaming stereotype of getting lost in a game and finding out it is 8 am instead of 1 am?

    Just because you find it difficulty to repeat things does not mean the challenge actually changes. It may be hard for you to personally repeat things but that does not mean it is actually challenging. I have never argued if I meant 190k or 150k. I have always argued the same exact numbers. You are literally the one that started at 150k and change it to 200k. I only pointed out the price of the token as 190k currently since you were updating your argument based on its price. That doesn't mean I changed the numbers in my earlier posts retroactively. Lol.

    Why wouldn't all alts be reasonably geared? Item level 190 is not "well geared". You clearly haven't played the game recently to think so. It is 6 months into a patch so being resonably geared is a good expectation. Even more so if you were spending time on a scheme such as this. Right? You don't need to be over 200 item level in order to breeze through world content. When was the last time you actually played the game?

    I am curious. Have you found it hard to post responses in this thread? Because you say repetition over a week is a hard thing to do. Wouldn't the repetition of responding over all this time be increasingly hard for you? Or do you find it just as easy as the first few times you typed out a response and hit post?
    If you want to work with 190 ilvl, thats fine by me. So how much time investment did it take to get all 15 characters up to 190 ilvl? You keep hand waving away the substantial time investment just to get 15 characters to max level, but im happy to ignore that as you have acknowledged it would take "time to set up". So how much time investment per character, right now, do you think it would take to get them to 190 ilvl?

    Lastly, i never claimed 190 ilvl was "well geared", but you have claimed there is literally no difference in difficulty between doing a calling on a 160 ilvl character and a 225 one, so im not entirely convinced you have played the game at all this expansion, since one of the main complaints is that there is some gaping chasm in player power between 200 ilvl and 220, let alone 160 and 225.

    To answer your very unusual question, it is very easy for me to work while occasionally press F5 and see if there are any replies, and then reply. Maybe a grand total of 20 - 30 minutes today between phone calls and other work. Now, if i had to come into my office after work, and sit down and spam replies for 5 hours, every single day, 7 days a week? Yeah, I would find that far more challenging, especially if that's all I was doing, rather than breaking it up with other activities.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-11 at 03:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  15. #1715
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The challenge remains the same if the calling itself remains the same.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You stated you knew my stance so why would I have to repeat what you already knew? Which means if there is a lack of evidence you didn't know my stance to even ask if it is the same. You did only buy gold though. What you do with gold doesn't matter. Carries are not a black market. They have existed since the start of the game and is something that is not against the rules. Why do you think something 100% legit is a black market?
    You heard it here first folks, Rhole believes that: That someone who paid their way to complete the hardest gameplay content from Blizzard, through gold obtained through a Blizzard service, doesn't matter because the rest of the people still have to deal with it.

    But the thing is what if a portion of the 'rest' decides to buy carry runs? Then its not just one person. There is plenty of lazy players out there who think to themselves "I don't have the time to do this" and will buy tokens for carries or pay for boosts to minimize the time they actually want to engage with the game.

    While a small portion, there is also just the whales who see nothing wrong with paying blizzard for tokens and getting a bunch of gold. After all they have cash to burn. Like that one guy from Black Desert Online who blew 160k on in-game items just to have an advantage over other players through the use of gold. Sure its an extreme example but there is these kinds of players as well in addition to the lazy ones.

  16. #1716
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    For the 400th time in this thread alone, the term P2W does not require "winning" to be valid, it simply requires gaining an advantage.
    And, as mentioned in response, it is not an "advantage" to be caught up to a position BEHIND current content.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  17. #1717
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And, as mentioned in response, it is not an "advantage" to be caught up to a position BEHIND current content.
    Even if it puts you ahead of those who cannot or choose not to pay for the levels?

    Just to be clear this is obviously more of a factor in TBCC than Retail, as the investment to get from 1-58 is much higher than 1-50 in retail. This is not the classic forum, so im not only talking about classic, but i just wanted to make that clear.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-11 at 03:20 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  18. #1718
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    If you want to work with 190 ilvl, thats fine by me. So how much time investment did it take to get all 15 characters up to 190 ilvl? You keep hand waving away the substantial time investment just to get 15 characters to max level, but im happy to ignore that as you have acknowledged it would take "time to set up". So how much time investment per character, right now, do you think it would take to get them to 190 ilvl?
    I have never hand waved away the investment needed to get the operation set up. I have always said it takes work for the initial investment to get all the characters to level 60. The time to get to 190 is irrelevant. It doesn't change anything about any of the points made. You are again looking for a "gotcha" moment to dismiss everything when nothing else has worked. 190 is not hard to get. World Quests max at 194 and Covenant at 196.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hydro-Djinn View Post
    But the thing is what if a portion of the 'rest' decides to buy carry runs? Then its not just one person. There is plenty of lazy players out there who think to themselves "I don't have the time to do this" and will buy tokens for carries or pay for boosts to minimize the time they actually want to engage with the game.
    But that can occur with out the tokens. Because the tokens do not enable that to happen in the game. It doesn't matter how many lazy players there are. If a person wants to use their gold for a boost why is that bad? The token is a trade between two players involving gold and $15 gift card to Battle.net. It is never a transaction to win because that is what happens after the fact. Gold already has that ability with out a token. The token doesn't enable it.

    The BDO player wasn't just about an advantage through gold. If you are going to bring in something else why lie about it? Whales will find a way to spend money regardless of the token existing. They would find other ways to get carries. You act as if boosting was first introduced to the game at the same time the token was. When did you start playing WoW? Because you don't seem to know anything about the history of boosting.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    And, as mentioned in response, it is not an "advantage" to be caught up to a position BEHIND current content.
    Here is a question for you. If Blizzard sold XP boosting potions for money would that be pay to win? What if they sold damage boosts while below max level? What if they sold old style heirlooms that were super OP for while below max level? Why is it that the only advantages that exist are end-game related? Could Blizzard sell gear for end-game but as long as it is something easily obtainable it would not be pay to win?

    What if they sold normal level raid gear. Is that pay to win? There is no real advantage to be behind current max item level.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #1719
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Even if it puts you ahead of those who cannot or choose not to pay for the levels?

    Just to be clear this is obviously more of a factor in TBCC than Retail, as the investment to get from 1-58 is much higher than 1-50 in retail. This is not the classic forum, so im not only talking about classic, but i just wanted to make that clear.
    You are comparing "losers" to "losers" anyways. So if anything that would be "pay to be a less of a loser". Doesn't make it a win nor even advantage since race is long over, ship has sailed, crew left.
    BfA > Wotlk > Cata > ... > WoD ~ TBC > Vanilla > ................ ? .............. > Legion > ... > Eating Dust > .... > SL
    You said corruption was great system. Can't find it and proceeds to lie again.
    Legendaries were such a great system I had them all before blizz lifted softcap

  20. #1720
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Even if it puts you ahead of those who cannot or choose not to pay for the levels?

    Just to be clear this is obviously more of a factor in TBCC than Retail, as the investment to get from 1-58 is much higher than 1-50 in retail. This is not the classic forum, so im not only talking about classic, but i just wanted to make that clear.
    Yes, because those people are ALSO behind.

    WoW is based on current content. Current content includes the current expansion. If you're behind current content - You're behind. Period.

    The boost NEVER takes you to the endgame. It puts you to the START of current content, which is the game the devs want people playing. That includes Classic TBC, where the boost takes you to 58 - The start of Outland content. It gives you mediocre green gear to start and sends you off into Outland to do TBC content.

    The same goes for the retail boost. It puts you at the START of current content. It gives you mediocre starter gear, and it sends you off into current retail expansion. If you're not at current retail expansion - You're behind. No one pays attention to the rest of the game anymore. That's the idea behind the boost. It doesn't matter WHAT level you are, if you're pre-current expansion, you're behind and catching up. You can level, or you can pay for the boost, and either way you are then caught up and can start the current game.

    By no stretch of the imagination is that "winning" anything. It's putting you at the starting line.
    Last edited by Fleugen; 2021-06-11 at 04:05 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

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