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  1. #1721
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Yes, because those people are ALSO behind.

    WoW is based on current content. Current content includes the current expansion. If you're behind current content - You're behind. Period.

    The boost NEVER takes you to the endgame. It puts you to the START of current content, which is the game the devs want people playing. That includes Classic TBC, where the boost takes you to 58 - The start of Outland content. It gives you mediocre green gear to start and sends you off into Outland to do TBC content.

    The same goes for the retail boost. It puts you at the START of current content. It gives you mediocre starter gear, and it sends you off into current retail expansion. If you're not at current retail expansion - You're behind. No one pays attention to the rest of the game anymore. That's the idea behind the boost. It doesn't matter WHAT level you are, if you're pre-current expansion, you're behind and catching up. You can level, or you can pay for the boost, and either way you are then caught up and can start the current game.

    By no stretch of the imagination is that "winning" anything. It's putting you at the starting line.
    Again, please stop relying on the word "winning" - it is doing your argument a great injustice. As to your point, your saying that 2 players are in the exact same position on launch day if one is lvl 1 and has to level to 60, and the other is at lvl 50 and has to level to 60, simply because they both have to reach the end goal of 60?

    In a F1 race, would it be considered reasonable to have everyone start on lap one of 60, but give some people the chance to automatically complete their first 50 laps for a price, starting on lap 51? I mean the main goal is to complete the entire season with the most points, and this is only one part of that so it isnt really P2W, right? I accept that leveling to cap is only PART of the experience, and maybe a better way of putting it is allowing someone to BUY P1 at every race - they still have to complete all the laps, and everyone has an equal opportunity to pass each other, so its fair, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I have never hand waved away the investment needed to get the operation set up. I have always said it takes work for the initial investment to get all the characters to level 60. The time to get to 190 is irrelevant. It doesn't change anything about any of the points made. You are again looking for a "gotcha" moment to dismiss everything when nothing else has worked. 190 is not hard to get. World Quests max at 194 and Covenant at 196.
    Yet another question you just dont want to answer? Yet another example of your "easy" option not being easy at all. Have a guess, how long do you think it would take to get ONE toon to 190 ilvl, and we can just multiply that by fifteen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  2. #1722
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    What if you spend it on a mount? Is that still pay to win? What if they buy a mount with all but 10 of that gold and the remainder is earned in game. Is a boost still pay to win? When you pay real money you are paying to trade another person time spent farming gold. That is what you pay for. What you do with the gold is irrelevant to the real money being spent.

    It isn't pay to win to use that gold on normal game things.

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    But with different levels of manual labor required. The reason why I switched it to an assembly worker was because they were both blue collar. Do you not remember taking issue with the collar color being different? Do you also not understand the purpose of the examples? To indicate that the time something takes does not denote the difficulty of doing that job.

    Not all 8 hour shifts of different jobs are the same effort, or "difficulty". Some jobs are easier then others.
    If you spend it on power, it's P2W.

  3. #1723
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Again, please stop relying on the word "winning" - it is doing your argument a great injustice. As to your point, your saying that 2 players are in the exact same position on launch day if one is lvl 1 and has to level to 60, and the other is at lvl 50 and has to level to 60, simply because they both have to reach the end goal of 60?
    You're disingenuously ignoring that 50 to 60 is all that matters. Nobody cares if the first person decides to level 1 to 50, they're basically just playing a different game. They're NOT at the same point as the person who boosted. The expansion is ENTIRELY different content.

    If you decide to boost, you're not included in the same place as the person who decides to level 1 to 50. The person leveling 1 to 50 isn't considered in the same place as the person who boosted.

    In a F1 race, would it be considered reasonable to have everyone start on lap one of 60, but give some people the chance to automatically complete their first 50 laps for a price, starting on lap 51?
    Depends. Would everyone have the option for two years to finish the first 50 laps, and only when the first 50 laps are completed by the large majority of people, do they allow a few people to pay to skip the first 50?

    Like the boost currently is, people would probably only care for the people who did the first 50 fastest, then only care about the subset of people who finish 50-60 fastest. Unsurprisingly, no different than how people look at the levels in WoW.
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    I'm sorry sir, but we do not serve complimentary cheese when you bring your own whine.

  4. #1724
    Orcboi NatePsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    No. Using gold to gain advantages is a normal part of the game. Blizzard is facilitating the trade of gold. What a person does with that gold is up to them and is not pay to win just because some, or all, of the gold came from a token.
    Using gold to gain advantages is a normal part of the game, yes, when farmed through your own efforts in the game. Buying a token to acquire an advantage, ie, gold to buy power is P2W. You're paying Blizzard for gold to be used to get ahead of others who may not have the means to throw cash around, therefore being at a disadvantage because they can't simply just buy the gold themselves like the guy using rl money.

    I don't know how else to explain it to you because it's pretty clear cut that there's an advantage being had here through the use of cash. If I see a friend in guild with high progression/key levels who wouldn't otherwise have been able to do that while I'm at a much less higher progression because I don't use cash, I'm at a disadvantage. That is paying to win because he would not have been able to do that in any other scenario.

    Sorry dude, while Blizzard facilitates P2W on a smaller scale, it still very much is P2W. Long gone is the company that cared about prestige. They've abandoned it in favor of the almighty dollar, they took the easy way out to combat gold sellers instead of putting in honest work getting interns or Blizzard CS to sift through the mass amounts of gold being suspiciously transferred around.

    Just take a look at FF, they're actively combatting gold sellers and they aren't considering selling currency to deal with the problem, because they'd rather put in the effort to track sellers instead. That's how it should be to uphold integrity at the endgame and make YOU put in the effort to earn those things.
    Last edited by NatePsy; 2021-06-11 at 05:08 AM.

  5. #1725
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you are claiming there are people who think swiping your credit card and buying full bis gear is NOT P2W?
    Yes, because an argument can be made that who gives a shit about gear? Is getting BiS winning? Maybe to you, probably not to them.

    Or are you simply saying that as soon as there is an additional step, it stops being P2W? So swiping your credit card which gives you a token which can be traded at a vendor in gmae for full BIS gear is not P2W because there was one extra step?
    My definition is simple, can you buy anything that you can't get in game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    By definition.
    By definition all games you pay for are p2w

    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    That condition is irrelevant.
    To you
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  6. #1726
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    Yes, because an argument can be made that who gives a shit about gear? Is getting BiS winning? Maybe to you, probably not to them.
    For the 500th time in this thread alone, the phrase P2W does not require something to be a "win" or "winning" - just because the phrase includes the term "win" does not require it to meet the commonly accepted definition, which is gaining an ADVANTAGE. When i say you are driving me up the wall, there is no car involved, and no wall. This may or may not blow your mind, but shooting the moon does not involve a gun, OR the moon. And flipping out? Very seldom is anyone involved performing actual flips.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    My definition is simple, can you buy anything that you can't get in game?
    Yes - collectors editions and similar frequently if not ALWAYS contain items that cannot be obtained any other way, even TBCC has the felstalker mount, which was not in TBC, and cannot be obtained any other way. Now, I realise your natural instinct to this reply will be to say "yeah, but none of that gives you any power!!!" but i will tick that box right now by quoting something that may be familiar to you: "who gives a shit about gear?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  7. #1727
    Imagine being in a racecar and complaining the guy you're up against spent more money than you learning how to drive

  8. #1728
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohvul View Post
    Imagine being in a racecar and complaining the guy you're up against spent more money than you learning how to drive
    Imagine being in a racecar after working for years to afford it, and qualifying and working your way up the ranks, just to have some guy turn up, and buy a car with 200hp more than you, bypassing all the training, all the qualifying, being offered poll position, only having to complete 10laps while everyone else has to do 60, and he still spends the whole race smashing into everyone elses cars, smashing into the barriers, and ruining the race for everyone else.

    To be clear, that is NOT what is happening in wow, but it is the reason some people really hate the P2W nature of some games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  9. #1729
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So you are claiming there are people who think swiping your credit card and buying full bis gear is NOT P2W?
    You can always pay someone else to play any game for you. This is not any kind of meaningful argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Imagine being in a racecar after working for years to afford it, and qualifying and working your way up the ranks, just to have some guy turn up, and buy a car with 200hp more than you, bypassing all the training, all the qualifying, being offered poll position, only having to complete 10laps while everyone else has to do 60, and he still spends the whole race smashing into everyone elses cars, smashing into the barriers, and ruining the race for everyone else.

    To be clear, that is NOT what is happening in wow, but it is the reason some people really hate the P2W nature of some games.
    So to be clear, you made an example that would literally never happen for multiple reasons and you think that's somehow comparable?

    Also, the more correct example is the boxed copy of a game letting you skip having to play through the entirety of a previous game to unlock it.

  10. #1730
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    So if I bought one token of gold 2 years ago, but used 250k of the gold I farmed myself to buy a boost now, thats pay 2 win by some peoples definition. Thats the fucked up logic people are using.

    Which is wrong, because WoW do not use a direct transaction for power, so by definition, its not pay 2 win.

    It is as easy as that. No amount of mental gymnastics can change that.
    That is why, about 70 pages or so ago, that people started using 'indirect P2W'.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  11. #1731
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    You can always pay someone else to play any game for you. This is not any kind of meaningful argument.
    No, that is illegal, so using that as an argument is completely ridiculous.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  12. #1732
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
    I mean, it does. You can buy carries in game with gold without ever paying money. Carries aren't exclusive to token buyers.
    The term 'indirect P2W' was brought up early in the thread by someone else, which covers people's argument of the Token being P2W but also fulfills the argument of the TCG being P2W if the term is correctly used, but the term itself is not that correct, as the definitions state that P2W is gaining the advantage from the developer (which would clearly mean directly). If the term 'indirect' was made invalid, then the token would just be tradeable game-time, its existence removes the dangers of gold sellers and game-time sellers (and the scammers including) unless you specifically seek those out still. Just like TCG loot would just be tradeable products between other players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Hiring someone to play on your account is not illegal, neither is buying gold from 3rd party. TOS is not the law. Just "opinion" of developers.
    Well, the ToS is the law within the game, if you break it, you remove your rights to the game.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  13. #1733
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No, that is illegal, so using that as an argument is completely ridiculous.
    No, it's not. Terms of service of some video games prohibit account sharing, but nothing prohibits you paying someone to play the game for you.

    But to say it's illegal? Is watching your sister play a game on the couch illegal? If not, it's certainly not illegal.

    I still what to know how you think having a character worse than people have had for 18 months is a competitive advantage..

  14. #1734
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    No, it's not. Terms of service of some video games prohibit account sharing, but nothing prohibits you paying someone to play the game for you.

    But to say it's illegal? Is watching your sister play a game on the couch illegal? If not, it's certainly not illegal.
    Paying someone to play the game for you is literally EXACTLY what account sharing is. Watching someone play a game is not illegal, no. Why would you think it is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Well, the ToS is the law within the game, if you break it, you remove your rights to the game.
    Just wanted to jump in and support this by saying the term "illegal" is NOT limited to criminal law, and even Webster (i think it was webster?) have added an additional definition specifically to include "breaking rules, for example in games". I dont know where this idea that the term "illegal" only referred to criminal law came from...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    I still what to know how you think having a character worse than people have had for 18 months is a competitive advantage..
    I just want to know why you think every single person has characters already? its such a strange stance to take........like no new player EVER joins the game, its just a one way ticket and everyone has one main, thats max level, and thats all they will ever have..........
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  15. #1735
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Nope. You stated 150,000 gold per week and changed it later. Doing something on a main and the alt will be the same because world content doesn't change. I've already told you that there is no reason to expect alts to be have low gear 6 months into Shadowlands. Have you even played the expansion to know how easy it is to obtain gear? You keep trying to find any little thing you can to dismiss the entire thing.

    I never failed to acknowledge that it equates to 25 hours per week. Just because I didn't spell that out didn't mean I failed. Lol. Stop trying to find every little thing to say "Gotcha". I never said it would take "no time" in order to do. You asked how an average player could do it "easily". Once you level the alts up it can easily be done. Easy doesn't mean minimal time per week. Doing callings is relatively easy.
    You keep changing the goal posts. 6 times you have been proven wrong and you keep going. What's next? The time is wrong because all my guys are 215 ilvl at least? You are done buddy. No one believes you because you have been proven wrong with math. It's just ridiculous that you even continue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    An 8-hour shift sitting in a chair watching a computer screen is loads easier then a 8-hour shift working as a lumber jack. Callings are easy to do. If you've played the game recently you would know this. Repeating something easy is also easy to do. I never claimed that it wouldn't take a lot of time only that 20 mins was not extremely generous.
    LoL
    Like I mean WTF LOL
    Now we are bringing lumber jacks in to weather or not working 35 hours for 15 bucks is slavery?

    Respect to all of you people who use their hands to make a buck. I envy you because I'm fucking useless and fixing making creating anything. I need you and I am in no way saying you are shit.

    But let's be real. 35 hours of "easy" content before you can actually play the game is slavery. I get paid low by world standards but my time is worth 43.63 an hour. Are you saying that your easy way of getting gold that isn't even the amount needed to buy 1 single token isn't slavery? If you are then prove it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The number only became irrelevant when you had nothing else to discredit what I said. You originally stated 150k which wasn't the price of a token at that time. The WoW token is 190k currently and was mid 180's yesterday. Because I bought a token. World Content doesn't scale and you can easily out gear it. 170 is ridiculously low for 6 months into the expansion.

    I have never said the time investment was not substantial. You keep fixating on things that was never said as if it proves the entire thing is invalid. Only a few others have pointed it out who parrot almost exactly what you keep arguing. Suspicious no? One of them even acted as if they've argued the point before when they haven't. Weird no?

    Doing callings over multiple character is an easy way to earn gold. Do you think that is hard to do? What skill does it take? What makes it hard? Do you routinely have a challenging time doing your daily callings? Have you struggled to gear past 190 in the game? Just because it takes a while to do does not mean it is also hard to do.

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    Hiow can you catch up if you haven't "Won" 50 levels? That is the advantage. There has never been anything about definitions for pay to win that require relevant content as part of it.

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    Wow. That went over your head. Sitting at a screen for an 8 hour shift was not talking about playing WoW. It was talking about a job like a security guard that watches a computer monitor their entire shift and how that is objectively easier then a job like a lumber jack that requires high physical labor in a dangerous environment. It isn't dishonest to use an example of things that are easy even though it is over a long period of time when it is relevant to the discussion.
    You keep calming it is easy to callings farm a token weekly yet it is been proven mathematically wrong by multiple users.

    Now you persist in the "if they at a computer they ain't working hard" narrative. Using your own examples please tell me the last time a lumberjack got shot while working.

    You have been proven wrong at every turn. You dodge and pivot only to be proven wrong time after time. Do you even play wow?

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Ok so you consider being a computer programmer to be "objectively easier" than a Lumberjack? What about a drone operator Vs a Lumberjack? Is being a Drone operator objectively easier? I mean they "just sit in front of a computer screen"...One is clearly objectively more physically demanding, but to claim one is "objectively easier" than the other is not accurate, even in the scenario you presented with a Security Officer Vs a Lumberjack - most security jobs are night shift, and working nights is very challenging. It also brings with it additional stress, health issues, and depending on the job, could have very high levels of responsibility and pressure.
    When was the last time a lumberjack was shot on the job?

    Trying to compare a jobs stress is stupid and you make a good point. Personally, as a professional, I can guarantee that I'm not as pysical as a lumberjack but they have no idea what stress is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Notice how you said stretches it. Pay to win is Pay to win. You can't just subjectively remove things because you personally don't see a problem with them. I also don't have a problem with the level boosts but they are still technically pay to win according to the usual definitions. If Blizzard sold mythic raid gear only after hall of fame closed is it still pay to win? Others earned it likely months before the option is available. To say you "won" that gear is laughable. Right?

    But you'll make some excuse up for why winning at end game is competently different. Leave the feelings out of it. Would gaining 60 levels be pay to win? Would going from 50 to 60 be pay to win? Would gaining 40 ranks of Renown be pay to win? Those all encompass levels. If buying levels in one regard is not pay to win then it has to be in all regards right? Because it is the same power being bought.

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    So you get it. Just because it takes you 3.5 to 5 hours a day to do easy things does not mean it is hard.
    Whether or not the individual process is easy or not is not the point. Did you know that cutting down a tree is pretty fucking easy? Cutting down 100 isnt.

    You have been caught. By your own references you have proven that doing dailies for 3.5 hours a day is In fact difficult.

    I will wait for my apology

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    An 8-hour shift sitting in a chair watching a computer screen is loads easier then a 8-hour shift working as a lumber jack. Callings are easy to do. If you've played the game recently you would know this. Repeating something easy is also easy to do. I never claimed that it wouldn't take a lot of time only that 20 mins was not extremely generous.
    And that has nothing to do with difficulty. A lot of things are easy. Doing them for 8 hours is not.

    You have been proven wrong on 7 times and you continue spouting nonesense.

    Lumberjacks this. Proven wrong.
    It's easy to make gold. Proven wrong.
    You can make a tokens worth of gold in a week. Proven wrong..
    People are out to get you: proven wrong.

    At this point it's embarrassing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Pay to win has never required end game content. You can still gain power advantages at any level with paying to win. Buying the advantage of 50 levels directly from Blizzard is paying to win.
    Then why are you advocating that's it's easy to get token gold by doing "easy" content. I am still waiting for your guide I. How to do it

    Personally I think you are full of shit and you bought a boost for TBCC

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The number only became irrelevant when you had nothing else to discredit what I said. You originally stated 150k which wasn't the price of a token at that time. The WoW token is 190k currently and was mid 180's yesterday. Because I bought a token. World Content doesn't scale and you can easily out gear it. 170 is ridiculously low for 6 months into the expansion.

    I have never said the time investment was not substantial. You keep fixating on things that was never said as if it proves the entire thing is invalid. Only a few others have pointed it out who parrot almost exactly what you keep arguing. Suspicious no? One of them even acted as if they've argued the point before when they haven't. Weird no?

    Doing callings over multiple character is an easy way to earn gold. Do you think that is hard to do? What skill does it take? What makes it hard? Do you routinely have a challenging time doing your daily callings? Have you struggled to gear past 190 in the game? Just because it takes a while to do does not mean it is also hard to do.

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    Hiow can you catch up if you haven't "Won" 50 levels? That is the advantage. There has never been anything about definitions for pay to win that require relevant content as part of it.

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    Wow. That went over your head. Sitting at a screen for an 8 hour shift was not talking about playing WoW. It was talking about a job like a security guard that watches a computer monitor their entire shift and how that is objectively easier then a job like a lumber jack that requires high physical labor in a dangerous environment. It isn't dishonest to use an example of things that are easy even though it is over a long period of time when it is relevant to the discussion.
    NO.

    You were the one who mentioned token price and then when proven wrong adjusted to 150k.

    You have been demolished with logic by 6 users and you twist and turn and lie and try to create a new narrative to twist into your words.

    NO.

    You have been proven to be a liar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Ok so you consider being a computer programmer to be "objectively easier" than a Lumberjack? What about a drone operator Vs a Lumberjack? Is being a Drone operator objectively easier? I mean they "just sit in front of a computer screen"...One is clearly objectively more physically demanding, but to claim one is "objectively easier" than the other is not accurate, even in the scenario you presented with a Security Officer Vs a Lumberjack - most security jobs are night shift, and working nights is very challenging. It also brings with it additional stress, health issues, and depending on the job, could have very high levels of responsibility and pressure.
    You are right. Does a security guard even have to heavy objects. Dies a lumberjack even get shot at?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Notice how you said stretches it. Pay to win is Pay to win. You can't just subjectively remove things because you personally don't see a problem with them. I also don't have a problem with the level boosts but they are still technically pay to win according to the usual definitions. If Blizzard sold mythic raid gear only after hall of fame closed is it still pay to win? Others earned it likely months before the option is available. To say you "won" that gear is laughable. Right?

    But you'll make some excuse up for why winning at end game is competently different. Leave the feelings out of it. Would gaining 60 levels be pay to win? Would going from 50 to 60 be pay to win? Would gaining 40 ranks of Renown be pay to win? Those all encompass levels. If buying levels in one regard is not pay to win then it has to be in all regards right? Because it is the same power being bought.

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    So you get it. Just because it takes you 3.5 to 5 hours a day to do easy things does not mean it is hard.
    It is if your 5 hours a day turns into 35 hours a week. Forever. That's called a full time job.

    To be flush with gold and not pay for your sub you have to take on a full time job. Yeah, that not easy. That is slavery. 15 divided by 35 hours is 43 cents an hour. You are done

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How does a calling get harder just because you've done it on four characters already? What part of the game changes to make it more difficult?
    The calling isn't harder. The will to do it again for 15 characters gets harder. Turning from a "chore" to a full time job makes it harder. Paying yourself I to slavery just to save 15 bucks makes it hard.

    Every day you are doing easy content doing it for 7 days is hard doing it month on moth is difficult
    .
    Most Dane people will just pay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    Yes, because an argument can be made that who gives a shit about gear? Is getting BiS winning? Maybe to you, probably not to them.



    My definition is simple, can you buy anything that you can't get in game?



    By definition all games you pay for are p2w



    To you
    Yes. You can buy a skip to lvl 58. There is nothing in game that lets you do that.

    Ty for clearing it up. Buying a boost is P2W by your win definition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohvul View Post
    Imagine being in a racecar and complaining the guy you're up against spent more money than you learning how to drive
    Imagine being in a racecar where the goal was to finish and then some guy spent 200 bucks to be 58 laps ahead of you.

    Think before u post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    You can always pay someone else to play any game for you. This is not any kind of meaningful argument.

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    So to be clear, you made an example that would literally never happen for multiple reasons and you think that's somehow comparable?

    Also, the more correct example is the boxed copy of a game letting you skip having to play through the entirety of a previous game to unlock it.
    So breaking the law is your answer?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaetha View Post
    No, it's not. Terms of service of some video games prohibit account sharing, but nothing prohibits you paying someone to play the game for you.

    But to say it's illegal? Is watching your sister play a game on the couch illegal? If not, it's certainly not illegal.

    I still what to know how you think having a character worse than people have had for 18 months is a competitive advantage..
    Read the ToS again please. What you have described breaks the contract. Breaking a contract is illegal

    Try again buddy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  16. #1736
    I mean when people talk about a game being P2W, they don’t mean that you actually pay to get a “I WIN BUTTON”, but rather how these type of games use micro transactions as a way to enhance your chances at winning the game compared to someone who does not acquire them. Now, I only wanna focus on retail for a second here and the use of wow tokens which in my opinion are completely P2W. Yes, gold doesn’t automatically mean you will become a MDI champion, but it will certainly represent a big advantage over people that decide not to buy gold. Why? Because these days gold can be used to get good gear in no time, and by good gear I mean in the 215+ range. You can easily get there by buying a heroic boost and a +15 key with gold. Now, people might say that these kind of players are just skipping ahead to current content and gear is irrelevant when doing M+ or arena, but you can’t deny the fact that WoW is a very gear oriented game, and let’s be honest it is not necessarily a hard game. All it takes is some YouTube videos to do decent damage and not to die to mechanics. So, in this case you can have a good rookie fire mage at 203 vs a mediocre boosted fire mage at 210 and the boosted mage will always do more dps. So, you could essentially say the boosted mage bought WoW tokens to get a clear advantage on the game and thus “winning”, something that is quite typical of a mobile game which is basically what retail WoW has become. Now, I don’t have a problem with micro transactions as whole, like getting skins or mounts or pets, but when money can actually get you gear that dictates how well you can perform in the game, well then that is when the game becomes a joke tbh.

  17. #1737
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montypoot View Post
    I mean when people talk about a game being P2W, they don’t mean that you actually pay to get a “I WIN BUTTON”, but rather how these type of games use micro transactions as a way to enhance your chances at winning the game compared to someone who does not acquire them. Now, I only wanna focus on retail for a second here and the use of wow tokens which in my opinion are completely P2W. Yes, gold doesn’t automatically mean you will become a MDI champion, but it will certainly represent a big advantage over people that decide not to buy gold. Why? Because these days gold can be used to get good gear in no time, and by good gear I mean in the 215+ range. You can easily get there by buying a heroic boost and a +15 key with gold. Now, people might say that these kind of players are just skipping ahead to current content and gear is irrelevant when doing M+ or arena, but you can’t deny the fact that WoW is a very gear oriented game, and let’s be honest it is not necessarily a hard game. All it takes is some YouTube videos to do decent damage and not to die to mechanics. So, in this case you can have a good rookie fire mage at 203 vs a mediocre boosted fire mage at 210 and the boosted mage will always do more dps. So, you could essentially say the boosted mage bought WoW tokens to get a clear advantage on the game and thus “winning”, something that is quite typical of a mobile game which is basically what retail WoW has become. Now, I don’t have a problem with micro transactions as whole, like getting skins or mounts or pets, but when money can actually get you gear that dictates how well you can perform in the game, well then that is when the game becomes a joke tbh.
    And what if I paid those boosters even more gold to not boost you? What did you gain?
    You can buy a lvl boost, and that is the closest thing of p2w here. I cant pay blizzard not to boost your char.
    You can also sell your own body to get a boost in a raid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
    Mr. Smith about the cost of Triple-spec
    3k gold right off the bat, about 5 silver a week later.

  18. #1738
    You can tell that people are grasping at straws on this P2W argument when they have to invent a new term to make it sound like they have an argument. The literal first google entry for "indirect pay to win" is MMO-Champion.

    Maybe in the next twenty pages they will decide to use "non-sponsored indirect pay to win" to further blur what pay to win means.

  19. #1739
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    That is why, about 70 pages or so ago, that people started using 'indirect P2W'.
    So not p2w.

    If your guild was struggling on Mistress Sasszine in ToS, and blizzard offered a way to buy so she started with 1 hp each reset if in guildgroup, that would be p2w.

    If you buy a token. Well, thats just gold. Not p2w. The definition is simple.

    If people are making up decisions, there is no need to even discuss. There is one definition. Everything else is just personal interpretations.


    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    You can tell that people are grasping at straws on this P2W argument when they have to invent a new term to make it sound like they have an argument. The literal first google entry for "indirect pay to win" is MMO-Champion.

    Maybe in the next twenty pages they will decide to use "non-sponsored indirect pay to win" to further blur what pay to win means.
    Spot on.

    "buying boost to level 50 is pAyTwOwIn"

    Yep, thats where we are at.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2021-06-11 at 01:02 PM.

  20. #1740
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yep, Spot on.

    "buying boost to level 50 is pAyTwOwIn"

    hats where we are at.
    At this rate, how long until I can argue that Blizzard needs to remove gold, the auction house, and gear because as long as these exist -- 'non-sponsored indirect illegal pay 2 win" will exist?

    Because atm -- indirect pay to win is a brand new term and it means nothing, so it basically can mean whatever is useful in the argument?

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