1. #1721
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Don't know what to tell you. Cash gets me power, directly.
    How is having to go to players or the Auction House direct? You don't pay cash and directly get power with a token. Because gold isn't power.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  2. #1722
    Quote Originally Posted by NotGeorgia View Post
    Pay to win is when you have to pay real money to be on par and play with others at end game content. Which is not WoW.
    So by your definition, logging into wow, going to the cash shop, and paying $500 to Blizzard who instantly mail you full BiS pvp and raid gear is not P2W?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  3. #1723
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So by your definition, logging into wow, going to the cash shop, and paying $500 to Blizzard who instantly mail you full BiS pvp and raid gear is not P2W?
    I don't pay blizzard anything more than my monthly sub. I do end content also. Pay 2 Win means if you want to do something like get 2.4k in arenas or mythic the latest raid then you would only be able to get that done by paying $$$ so that you can be on par and do it. Because you don't have to pay anyone anything to get any of these done it isn't P2W. Its your own choice to pay.

  4. #1724
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How is having to go to players or the Auction House direct? You don't pay cash and directly get power with a token. Because gold isn't power.
    It's direct because it's directly available in the game itself.

    I am spending cash to up my power. That is P2W.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NotGeorgia View Post
    Pay to win is when you have to pay real money to be on par and play with others at end game content. Which is not WoW. People pay money for carries and gear and gold because for the majority , 1 Suck at the game and are not competent or they are just lazy. Might have alts, might be really busy and can afford it. Since you can earn your own gear and reputation and gold and everything WoW is not pay 2 win because it offers things to players that cost real money.
    Where in the world does it say that you have to? The definition is in the phrase itself. You pay, to win.

    Doesn't matter how, or why, or how many steps. You're still paying cash in exchange for power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Factually speaking, you are using cash to buy game-time, to trade for gold, to earn gold, to then trade for a chance of power.
    Exactly. You only get a chance, which is even shittier considering how much you gotta pay for that chance.

    Chance or no chance though. You are still paying.. to win.

  5. #1725
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    It's direct because it's directly available in the game itself. I am spending cash to up my power. That is P2W.
    Which means it is indirect. Because your cash is not directly going towards getting the power. It requires players to offer an item or service to you.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  6. #1726
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Ok....let me understand. Gold is not important for you?
    You can earn gold for free...that's my point. I don't need to spend money to get gold. You can't buy the best gear in the game with that gold either...you still need to do the work and do mythics or rated

  7. #1727
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which means it is indirect. Because your cash is not directly going towards getting the power. It requires players to offer an item or service to you.
    What do you mean? These are services I can purchase that are directly in the game itself.

  8. #1728
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    What do you mean? These are services I can purchase that are directly in the game itself.
    What they are saying is that the moment you add ANY additional step in, it immediately stops being P2W. So unless you swipe your card and the actual items are sent to your in game mail, it is not P2W. For example, apparently purchasing Tier Tokens with a credit card, which are traded at a vendor for mythic raid gear would NOT be P2W, because you buy the Tier Token with the card, not the item itself, and the Tier Token does not grant you power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  9. #1729
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    What do you mean? These are services I can purchase that are directly in the game itself.
    Which means you do not directly buy the power with cash like you've claimed. Having to go to players and ask them to offer a run at that moment is not direct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What they are saying is that the moment you add ANY additional step in, it immediately stops being P2W. So unless you swipe your card and the actual items are sent to your in game mail, it is not P2W. For example, apparently purchasing Tier Tokens with a credit card, which are traded at a vendor for mythic raid gear would NOT be P2W, because you buy the Tier Token with the card, not the item itself, and the Tier Token does not grant you power.
    It is weird that you cling to a lie when you've been directly told that the situation you describe would be pay to win and is 100% different to how the token functions. A tier token supplied by blizzard from a blizzard vendor is direct pay to win. The tier token in your example does grant power because its sole purpose is to grant gear, the power, for your real money transaction. Thus pay to win.

    The purpose of gold is not just to grant power. The power it can grant is a natural part of the game design since Vanilla (BoE and group play). You pay for gold to skip the effort needed to farm it yourself. What you do with the gold does not mean the purchasing of gold is a win.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  10. #1730
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The purpose of gold is not just to grant power.
    So one of the purposes of gold is to grant power, and you can purchase gold with a credit card, but thats NOT P2W?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  11. #1731
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So one of the purposes of gold is to grant power, and you can purchase gold with a credit card, but thats NOT P2W?
    Yes. Because the gold naturally has that ability. You pay for gold and all it is designed to do. That win is not guaranteed to happen and is provided by other players just as the gold was. Do you consider a subscription to be pay to win?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #1732
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Do you consider a subscription to be pay to win?
    How does paying a subscription grant you an advantage over other players in the game?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  13. #1733
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    How does paying a subscription grant you an advantage over other players in the game?
    How does having gold grant you an advantage over other players in the game? A subscription technically gives advantages over a free/starter trial account. But both are indirect cash for power transactions if we use your definitions. But a subscription is not pay to win and a token is not as well. The gold gained from a token was already the advantage of another player. That player choose to give you their advantage so you didn't gain something other players do not have already.

    It is why the design of the currency and source matter to a discussion like this.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  14. #1734
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which means you do not directly buy the power with cash like you've claimed. Having to go to players and ask them to offer a run at that moment is not direct.

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    It is weird that you cling to a lie when you've been directly told that the situation you describe would be pay to win and is 100% different to how the token functions. A tier token supplied by blizzard from a blizzard vendor is direct pay to win. The tier token in your example does grant power because its sole purpose is to grant gear, the power, for your real money transaction. Thus pay to win.

    The purpose of gold is not just to grant power. The power it can grant is a natural part of the game design since Vanilla (BoE and group play). You pay for gold to skip the effort needed to farm it yourself. What you do with the gold does not mean the purchasing of gold is a win.
    What are you talking about? These services are directly in the game.

    I'll buy gold to purchase these things and Bkuzz receives 100% of the proceeds. P2W.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How does having gold grant you an advantage over other players in the game? A subscription technically gives advantages over a free/starter trial account. But both are indirect cash for power transactions if we use your definitions. But a subscription is not pay to win and a token is not as well. The gold gained from a token was already the advantage of another player. That player choose to give you their advantage so you didn't gain something other players do not have already.

    It is why the design of the currency and source matter to a discussion like this.
    How doesn't it hold an advantage? Players without it can't afford these boosts. Purchasing the gold allows you to undermine the work that goes into making the gold organically. You're skipping the process of farming so that you can get what you want faster.

    That's exactly P2W lol

  15. #1735
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I'll buy gold to purchase these things and Bkuzz receives 100% of the proceeds. P2W.
    $15 goes to the player that gave you their gold. $5 goes to Blizzard. The cash transaction is directly for gold. It has nothing to do with what you intend to use the gold for. There is no direct link to winning when you use the token. "Directly in the game" is meaningless.

    How doesn't it hold an advantage? Players without it can't afford these boosts. Purchasing the gold allows you to undermine the work that goes into making the gold organically. You're skipping the process of farming so that you can get what you want faster.
    How do players afford to buy tokens with gold? It does not undermine the work that goes into making the gold because a player did that work for you. You purchase that work from a player by giving them $15. You skip the process of farming as you say. You don't win gear by buying the token as you just stated. It can't be pay to win.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-06-15 at 11:40 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #1736
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    You act as if there aren't games out there where you have to buy said currency to buy other things that grant power and boosts lol

    Again. Purchase gold with cash, buy boosts and power. P2W /Thread

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    Why are you taking it as if we're whining? We're simply stating the fact that the game is, indeed, P2W.

    All these boosts and carries wouldn't exist if it wasn't because Blizzard profited off them. Before the token, you'd have to purchase from a third party website to get these things. The difference being the cash went to somebody else, not Blizzard.

    But because Blizzard profits off the tokens, these services from other players are out in the open. Doesn't matter if Blizzard offers these services themselves or not. Players are still giving money to Blizzard so that they may buy these services to grant themselves an advantage/reach a goal. That in itself is the definition of pay to win.

    This is all a product of the token. None of us are saying this is Blizzard's fault, or that the token should be discontinued. None of us are complaining here. We're simply stating the facts. A fact that the few of you are taking personally and whipping out your torches and pitchforks over.
    That's an opinion, not a fact. Why people can't understand that is beyond me. It's very simple. Water is wet. That is a fact. Fire is hot. That is a fact. Saying a game is pay to win is an opinion. Or perhaps a belief. But not a fact.

    And so what if Blizzard profits off the token? They also profit off the game itself. And the merchandise they sell. They're a business, and the purpose of having a business is to make money. This is not a new concept. If they didn't make a profit, they wouldn't be able to afford to make games, or pay employees, or anything after a while, and we would have no games to play. Is that really what you want?
    How joyous to be in such a place! Where phishing is not only allowed, it is encouraged!

  17. #1737
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    $15 goes to the player that gave you their gold. $5 goes to Blizzard. The cash transaction is directly for gold. It has nothing to do with what you intend to use the gold for. There is no direct link to winning when you use the token. "Directly in the game" is meaningless.



    How do players afford to buy tokens with gold? It does not undermine the work that goes into making the gold because a player did that work for you. You purchase that work from a player by giving them $15. You skip the process of farming as you say. You don't win gear by buying the token as you just stated. It can't be pay to win.
    It's meaningless because you want it to be for the sake of your nonsensical argument.

    $20 goes directly to Blizzard. Gold enters your pockets, and you give it to another player to boost you.

    No matter how many steps, at the end of the day you're spending cash directly to Blizz so that you may buy power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringthane View Post
    That's an opinion, not a fact. Why people can't understand that is beyond me. It's very simple. Water is wet. That is a fact. Fire is hot. That is a fact. Saying a game is pay to win is an opinion. Or perhaps a belief. But not a fact.

    And so what if Blizzard profits off the token? They also profit off the game itself. And the merchandise they sell. They're a business, and the purpose of having a business is to make money. This is not a new concept. If they didn't make a profit, they wouldn't be able to afford to make games, or pay employees, or anything after a while, and we would have no games to play. Is that really what you want?
    Why are you acting as if I'm offended in any way that Blizz profits off of this? It's way better that the cash goes to them and not third party websites.

    I'm just stating the fact that purchasing currency to purchase carries and AH gear is P2W.

  18. #1738
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    No matter how many steps, at the end of the day you're spending cash directly to Blizz so that you may buy power.
    So that you may buy power. Or may not. Buying gold isn't paying to win because of the steps needed in order to win. You may pay Blizzard $20 but they give $15 to the player that gives you their gold. That is the transaction. Their gold for your $15. What you do with the gold doesn't matter here. It isn't pay to win to buy a token. Gold normally has the ability to grant gear of group play and did so prior to the token even existing. So you don't pay to win anything. You pay to have gold and options gold allows.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-06-16 at 01:03 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #1739
    Expect new world is owned by a trillion dollar company . At launch ur rite there will be no pay to win items but after 2022 there will be .
    Black
    You value power, ambition, and darkness. You love power at any cost, and are a corrupting influence on those around you. At your best, you are resourceful and unashamed. At your worst, you are parasitic and amoral. Your symbol is a skull. Your enemies are white and green

  20. #1740
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So that you may buy power. Or may not. Buying gold isn't paying to win because of the steps needed in order to win. You may pay Blizzard $20 but they give $15 to the player that gives you their gold. That is the transaction. Their gold for your $15. What you do with the gold doesn't matter here. It isn't pay to win to buy a token. Gold normally has the ability to grant gear of group play and did so prior to the token even existing. So you don't pay to win anything. You pay to have gold and options gold allows.
    Except for the fact that I can purchase power with it, after spending cash on it.

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