1. #1741
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Except for the fact that I can purchase power with it, after spending cash on it.
    You can do that even with out spending cash on it. You pay for the convenience of not having to farm the gold yourself. You don't pay for a win. The gold pays for it.
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  2. #1742
    Buy Currency with CC - collect currency in game - spend currency on gear

    Buy Gear Token with CC - Collect gear token in game - spend Gear Token on gear = "100% P2W"

    Buy Game Time Token with CC - Token automatically exchanged for gold by Blizzard - spend gold on gear = "100% NOT P2W"

    And after 100 pages, this is where we find ourselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  3. #1743
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Buy Game Time Token with CC - Token automatically exchanged for gold by Blizzard - spend gold on gear = "100% NOT P2W"
    Tokens are not automatically exchanged. It requires a person to buy it and you have to list it on the AH yourself (unless it has changed since release as I've never bought one with $)

    Stop trying to use lies to prove your point. It isn't pay to win if you have a transaction between two players and then later are required to contact different players in order to maybe win. It is possible that you could find no one to boost you. Unlikely but still possible. Buying gold isn't paying to win. You are paying for the time it took the other person to farm their gold.
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  4. #1744
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Nor should they remove the token. The existence of the token has made it possible for people to actually pay the game by playing how they normally do, and when a new expansion is out, they can upgrade it by just enjoying the game. That is to some in the thread, P2W.

    Now, if you could make the token, controlled by Blizzard (the market adjustment value, and not player adjusted value) and then make the token able to be purchased from an NPC for gold to either sell on the auction or use for currency/game-time, that would be much better but a bit more difficult too. And some would call that P2W as well because Blizzard helped people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The problem with the token is not what it does for or too the player, it's the effect that it makes on a for profit company that is a slave to quarterly earning reports. The token creates a lot of pressure on developing the game to get more token sales which means more and more content NOT focused on quality lore or enjoyable gameplay or immersive rpg experiences. This pressure is based on the 80 iq idea of bottom line short term profits over long term loyalty, which is pretty much gone for WoW players versus what it was at 10 or 12 years ago.

  5. #1745
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Tokens are not automatically exchanged. It requires a person to buy it and you have to list it on the AH yourself (unless it has changed since release as I've never bought one with $)
    Blizzard have 100% control over the transaction, including price. It is fully automated - if you dont believe me, try and trade one with a friend, or list it for a price other than what Blizzard tell you its worth, or sell one in trade.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  6. #1746
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    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    The problem with the token is not what it does for or too the player, it's the effect that it makes on a for profit company that is a slave to quarterly earning reports. The token creates a lot of pressure on developing the game to get more token sales which means more and more content NOT focused on quality lore or enjoyable gameplay or immersive rpg experiences. This pressure is based on the 80 iq idea of bottom line short term profits over long term loyalty, which is pretty much gone for WoW players versus what it was at 10 or 12 years ago.
    The game hasn't really changed to put more pressure on token sales. The inflation of WoD was created before tokens. Challenge modes are the precursor to M+ and started in MoP. Group play hasn't changed much. The easy gold of WoD and Legion has been stopped but that wasn't because of tokens. The game no longer having quality lore, enjoyable game play or immersive rpg experiences has nothing to do with the token. Stop trying to create a scape goat for everything that you find wrong with the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Blizzard have 100% control over the transaction, including price. It is fully automated - if you dont believe me, try and trade one with a friend, or list it for a price other than what Blizzard tell you its worth, or sell one in trade.....
    Blizzard setting the base price and requiring it to go through the AH is completely different then it being automatically exchanged for gold. The token requires a person to purchase it in order to give you gold. If no one purchases it you do not get gold. It is unlikely but it is possible. Just like the AH has run out of tokens before when on one listed them.

    You can't trade it with a friend because it is BoP as well as Blizzard requiring the AH in order to safe guard the transactions from fraud.
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  7. #1747
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post

    Blizzard setting the base price and requiring it to go through the AH is completely different then it being automatically exchanged for gold. The token requires a person to purchase it in order to give you gold. If no one purchases it you do not get gold. It is unlikely but it is possible. Just like the AH has run out of tokens before when on one listed them.

    You can't trade it with a friend because it is BoP as well as Blizzard requiring the AH in order to safe guard the transactions from fraud.
    If it is BOP then how can it be sold to another person? Unless the system is...............automated!, and it being BoP has literally NOTHING to do with this.

    Unless you can list some other BoP items which can be sold "on the AH"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  8. #1748
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    If it is BOP then how can it be sold to another person? Unless the system is...............automated!, and it being BoP has literally NOTHING to do with this. Unless you can list some other BoP items which can be sold "on the AH"?
    But it isn't automated. You have to list the token on the AH. Someone has to buy the token. That isn't automation if it requires input from two players. It would be automated if you buy the token and get gold with not extra input on your part. But that isn't how it works. BoP is a general term and it binds to the person so it can not be traded. Just because no other BoP items can be auctioned off doesn't stop the token from having that unique ability.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-06-16 at 02:36 AM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  9. #1749
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    Not by my definition, by your understanding of my definition, does getting to level 58 mean you won? Also, by my definition you'd have to buy a boost to level 71 or higher while the regular player is only able to get to 70, glad I could clear that up


    Well then for the 500th time your opinion is your own.



    If a person chooses to place those items under their own opinion of what p2w is that's on them.
    Now you are just grasping at straws.

    It is very simple. In gaming P2W means buying a currency or power with real money to either skip a time sink or to buy power directly. This power or currency can be available in game.

    E.g. if you play a golf game that slowly awards you gems that can then be used to buy super balls then you are playing the game. If you pull out your credit card and buy those gems to get that ball straight away then you are P2W. It doesn't matter that you are shit and everyone still beats you even if you have loads of those balls. You still used a P2W mechanic.

    Buying gold to pay for the chance to get gear is P2W. Farming gold within the game to pay for runs is playing the game.

    Buying a boost is time skipping. Compared to another player who has level 1 you are skipping 100 plus hours for an average player. You are 100 hours ahead and 100 hours to 70 before the other player. 70 is where the game starts. You have an advantage.

    In P2W, there is no guarantee at winning. Just buying advantages over others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It doesn't matter to the actual point. I have never once stated it won't take time to get the process set up. I don't know how long it takes to gear to 190 but I know it doesn't take that long. I answer the question. Again you don't like the answer so you ignore the answer and cry about how it wasn't answered.

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    You are not spending money on power though. You are spending gold on power. So it isn't pay to win according to the definition you just gave.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You are paying a player are essentially paying a player $15 for the gold they spent farming for in game. You are buying gold. What you do with that gold is irrelevant to how you got the gold. Wealthy players always have an advantage over those that are poor. Who do you think supplies the gold for tokens? Wealthy players. That still doesn't make it pay to win just because someone makes use of having gold.

    The person that supplies the gold for a token can just as easily buy a carry with that gold. They choose the $15 gift card as a better option.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I haven't been proven wrong at all. Or moved any goal posts. I have always been talking about the gold earned from callings. My math hasn't actually been proven wrong and the one person to try to claim it was wrong did their math incorrectly. It is why you and others shifted the goal posts to 200k, to time to level to 60, to time to gear up, to time for a calling, to repetition is makes easy things hard, and everything else you keep trying to use.

    The fact you even bring slavery into this shows how dishonest you are and how you have a weird need to villify something you don't agree with. Choosing to do something is never slavery. An optional way to get the gold that was originally stated is not slavery. A person asked how it was possible. I proved one way it was possible and instead of accepting the possibility it is meet with "Lol thats slavery" and other ignorance.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No it isn't if you are still arguing that a levels are not buying power. That is part of the problem. The definition is clear but the way everyone applies it is subjective. A level skip is buying power in wow even if it doesn't bring you to end-game relevant levels. It is still an advantage over leveling it manually. Oh right you actually see a level boost as a disadvantage.
    So basically you don't know. You don't know how long it takes to gear a fresh toon to 190. You obviously do t have a legion of alts so you are making this all up. Like. Why? Why would you go to all this effort to create an argument that has been proven wrong on, by my count, 7 different people, and then reveal that you don't know how long it takes to gear up an alt?

    I haven't seen anyone caught in a lie this bad since WoWIsDead tried to convince us that she had a boyfriend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TidalConflux View Post
    Im pretty sure that this thread is actually doing more harm than good by bastardizing the definition of "pay to win" by trying to morph it into whatever fits the argument.
    Buyers remorse is a thing. It's studied in centres of higher learning such as universities. It's (dumbed way down) when someone regrets buying something and the actions they take to justify that purchase decision. Like buying gold from Blizzard and then saying things like "it's not direct P2W because I didn't buy any gear..." or buying a boost and then pointing at (completely irrelevant) 60s and saying "where's my advantage now?"

    It's a very complex psychological phenomena and it doesn't always play out the same way for each person

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Except when it comes to WoW, there's barely any difference between being level 1 or level 50.
    You can argue until you're blue in the face all you want, but WoW has always been designed around the end game, with maybe the exception of Vanilla.
    And the fact is, Blizzard has bundled in multiple boosts along the way with expansions. So it is something everyone's had access to at this point, extra boosts only serve to give a person more characters to play.

    On top of that, every content patch to an expansion is based around being max level. Every new raid, dungeon, etc, max level.

    But you think a level boost is "P2W", while being able to straight up buy gold isn't. When you can use gold to get actual character power, through gear. A level 1 and a level 50 might as well be the same thing in regards to WoW's design.
    Is it pay to win to buy some gems to speed up the building of my town hall that would otherwise take 72 hours to build? That's your boost. That's P2W.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  10. #1750
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    So basically you don't know. You don't know how long it takes to gear a fresh toon to 190. You obviously do t have a legion of alts so you are making this all up. Like. Why? Why would you go to all this effort to create an argument that has been proven wrong on, by my count, 7 different people, and then reveal that you don't know how long it takes to gear up an alt?
    I have stated multiple times I only have on character at level cap. I don't know the time frame it takes to level up a character to 190 but I have experience by doing it over time by playing the game on my main. It is weird how you and the others that like to focus on this part have yet to give a time other then "it takes a while". My argument has also not been proven wrong at all let alone by 7 different people. The argument was never about the time it takes to gear up an alt. Are you confused?

    You can make 150k a week through the method I outlined. I never said it wouldn't involve effort. I never said it wouldn't required work to level up the characters and get things set up. For time I only said it would take less then 20 mins per calling which I alone actually timed to show one of the more difficult ones took 14 mins with travel.

    It is objectively true that since callings offer 1.5 to 2.5k gold you can earn 150k a week by doing enough of them across characters. 10 to 15 depending on luck. But to you basic mechanics of the game is false so what exactly is it you are still trying to prove?
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-06-16 at 03:33 AM.
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  11. #1751
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You can do that even with out spending cash on it. You pay for the convenience of not having to farm the gold yourself. You don't pay for a win. The gold pays for it.
    I can do that by paying cash. What are you talking about?

  12. #1752
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I can do that by paying cash. What are you talking about?
    You can't do what gold does by paying cash. Well you can but it breaks the TOS/EULA.
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  13. #1753
    So, it's not p2w, it's pay for the convenience to win. word.

  14. #1754
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Now you are just grasping at straws.

    It is very simple. In gaming P2W means buying a currency or power with real money to either skip a time sink or to buy power directly. This power or currency can be available in game.

    E.g. if you play a golf game that slowly awards you gems that can then be used to buy super balls then you are playing the game. If you pull out your credit card and buy those gems to get that ball straight away then you are P2W. It doesn't matter that you are shit and everyone still beats you even if you have loads of those balls. You still used a P2W mechanic.

    Buying gold to pay for the chance to get gear is P2W. Farming gold within the game to pay for runs is playing the game.

    Buying a boost is time skipping. Compared to another player who has level 1 you are skipping 100 plus hours for an average player. You are 100 hours ahead and 100 hours to 70 before the other player. 70 is where the game starts. You have an advantage.

    In P2W, there is no guarantee at winning. Just buying advantages over others.
    I don't know what to tell you, that's your opinion to have.
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  15. #1755
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You can't do what gold does by paying cash. Well you can but it breaks the TOS/EULA.
    Except you can pay cash to get gold to do those things lol

  16. #1756
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Now you are just grasping at straws.

    It is very simple. In gaming P2W means buying a currency or power with real money to either skip a time sink or to buy power directly. This power or currency can be available in game.

    E.g. if you play a golf game that slowly awards you gems that can then be used to buy super balls then you are playing the game. If you pull out your credit card and buy those gems to get that ball straight away then you are P2W. It doesn't matter that you are shit and everyone still beats you even if you have loads of those balls. You still used a P2W mechanic.

    Buying gold to pay for the chance to get gear is P2W. Farming gold within the game to pay for runs is playing the game.

    Buying a boost is time skipping. Compared to another player who has level 1 you are skipping 100 plus hours for an average player. You are 100 hours ahead and 100 hours to 70 before the other player. 70 is where the game starts. You have an advantage.

    In P2W, there is no guarantee at winning. Just buying advantages over others.
    Except you are not buying advantage, you have already lost and will forever be behind. Comparing losers to losers isn't proper.

    The only way to have an advantage is to start early and play a lot at high level, no amount of money is going to change that. Thus you will never be able to win with just money.

    Now to translate it to your golf game example:
    Shop is off until highest skilled players finish all courses at highest difficulty. (thus you have already lost)
    You can only buy limited amount of gems.
    Playing a lot gives you much more gems at much faster rate.


    The only way money can buy you a "real win" is to hire some pro player to play on your account but that can be applied to every game ever made.
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  17. #1757
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    Except you are not buying advantage, you have already lost and will forever be behind. Comparing losers to losers isn't proper.

    The only way to have an advantage is to start early and play a lot at high level, no amount of money is going to change that. Thus you will never be able to win with just money.

    Now to translate it to your golf game example:
    Shop is off until highest skilled players finish all courses at highest difficulty. (thus you have already lost)
    You can only buy limited amount of gems.
    Playing a lot gives you much more gems at much faster rate.


    The only way money can buy you a "real win" is to hire some pro player to play on your account but that can be applied to every game ever made.
    This all assumes you need to gain an advantage over every single other player (be the best, win) in the game for a system to qualify as P2W. This is not accurate. Gain an advantage over others - not gain an advantage over literally any other player of the game.

    P2W is a colloquial term, and there is nothing about the phrase that suggests a requirement to win, other than the fact the word win is in the phrase. This is the norm for such terms, it isn't even remotely unusual in the slightest. But "pay to win" has a ring to it, certainly more than "use your credit card to gain an advantage over other players". This is no doubt a major factor in why the phrase was adopted and has been used for so long, as is typically the case.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-06-16 at 05:30 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  18. #1758
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Gain an advantage over others - not gain an advantage over literally any other player of the game.
    I think you meant to say "every other"
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  19. #1759
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khazmodan View Post
    The problem with the token is not what it does for or too the player, it's the effect that it makes on a for profit company that is a slave to quarterly earning reports. The token creates a lot of pressure on developing the game to get more token sales which means more and more content NOT focused on quality lore or enjoyable gameplay or immersive rpg experiences. This pressure is based on the 80 iq idea of bottom line short term profits over long term loyalty, which is pretty much gone for WoW players versus what it was at 10 or 12 years ago.
    Eh, that is more speculation. I hold my doubt much development time is attached to the outcome (and income) of the token. The token literally filled 3 problems and created one problem(?). It made it tougher for gold sellers, it made it tougher for illegal game-time sellers, and it made it easier for people to keep access to the game, and it created gold.

    It didn't just make things boom, one could call it a gold sink with value, even. When it came out, gold was way too easy to get, MoP made it easy but not as easy, and Cataclysm as well - heck, end of Wrath, an average player could pull in a good chunk too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Blizzard have 100% control over the transaction, including price. It is fully automated - if you dont believe me, try and trade one with a friend, or list it for a price other than what Blizzard tell you its worth, or sell one in trade.....
    The token price is controlled by Blizzard for supply and demand, they do not up the price for no reason, nor dump it. And I hold my best belief that it is for the better of the market, or you'll have auction scalping and token sales demanding MUCH more gold, making the token an exclusive product once more, heck, people talked earlier in this thread about inflation for these meager amounts but double or triple the price would happen in the control of us, the players.

    Following that. It is going through the Auction House for security measurements, and the sale is randomized so one cannot abuse it for special gold trades as we seen on the Auction already.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Except you can pay cash to get gold to do those things lol
    Except, you are paying cash, to get game time, which you can sell for gold. Facts.
    Last edited by Lochton; 2021-06-16 at 06:28 AM.
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  20. #1760
    100 pages of this thread begs the question: How many more do people need to realize there won't be any kind of consensus?

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