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  1. #1741
    Quote Originally Posted by Imphrazel View Post
    What do you guys think? Is WoW really pay to win nowadays or am I just over interpreting something in this?
    No, wow is NOT p2win cause there is no buy-able WIN-Condition in wow. if you wanna see a p2win game look at heartstone

  2. #1742
    Quote Originally Posted by tmamass View Post
    No, wow is NOT p2win cause there is no buy-able WIN-Condition in wow. if you wanna see a p2win game look at hearthstone
    Welcome to every card game of that sort.

  3. #1743
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    For the 500th time in this thread alone, the phrase P2W does not require something to be a "win" or "winning" - just because the phrase includes the term "win" does not require it to meet the commonly accepted definition, which is gaining an ADVANTAGE. When i say you are driving me up the wall, there is no car involved, and no wall. This may or may not blow your mind, but shooting the moon does not involve a gun, OR the moon. And flipping out? Very seldom is anyone involved performing actual flips.
    P2W isn't an idiom like your other examples. The meaning is very clear for "P2W". The rest are phrases that have another meaning than what is being said. The comparison to the race is a bit off too. Leveling in WoW is more like everyone was sitting on lap 50 for nearly 2 years, and now people joining get the chance to start off on lap 50 too instead of 1 when the race is finally starting again.

    I mean, that's why most expansions came with the boost tacked on. Not like it isn't something basically every player has had at some point access to.

  4. #1744
    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    But buying gold was a big no no in vanilla. Now it’s ok from the approved vendor (themselves). So spending money to buy gold, to buy a boost is not something you could do in vanilla (without breaking the ToS). How can it be comparable then?
    It may have been a big nono as concerns Blizzard. That doesn't mean however that it wasn't done and done in a huge scale. The term Chinese Gold Farmer exist for a reason. It always has and it always will. And if you think only Blizz sells retail gold then just google it and see.
    "DIE, INSECT!" - words to live by

  5. #1745
    Paying other players gold in game for them to boost you through Dungeons/Raids (so you can get your items/achievements) has always happened since Vanilla.
    Even if you pay to be carried, you might not get the items you want because the drops are random, not controlled by the players therefore your "win" is not guaranteed.

    Not everyone has friends to run mythics with or like to be part of a particular sort of guild in order to be able to do this. For some people is not possible to be online at a specified time on a certain day in order to raid. No issue here whatsoever.

    How come it wasn't classed as P2W until the Token was introduced?

    I got gold in game, farmed by myself and bought 2 tokens off AH which I exchanged for game time. Where's the P2W? What have I won over who?

    I also bought a mount from the in-game shop because I really liked it. It goes at the same speed as any other mount in game, it just looks different - pure cosmetic.

    I have never paid other players in game to boost me through anything... where's the P2W? What am I doing wrong?!

    Trying to point out that just because you are able to get gold easily, it doesn't automatically mean you win over any other player; what you do with it is a choice and does not change the definition of the services provided by that game's developers.
    “Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein”
    -------------------------------------------------

  6. #1746
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Yes. You can buy a skip to lvl 58. There is nothing in game that lets you do that.

    Ty for clearing it up. Buying a boost is P2W by your win definition.
    Not by my definition, by your understanding of my definition, does getting to level 58 mean you won? Also, by my definition you'd have to buy a boost to level 71 or higher while the regular player is only able to get to 70, glad I could clear that up

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    For the 500th time in this thread alone, the phrase P2W does not require something to be a "win" or "winning"
    Well then for the 500th time your opinion is your own.

    Yes - collectors editions and similar frequently if not ALWAYS contain items that cannot be obtained any other way, even TBCC has the felstalker mount, which was not in TBC, and cannot be obtained any other way. Now, I realise your natural instinct to this reply will be to say "yeah, but none of that gives you any power!!!" but i will tick that box right now by quoting something that may be familiar to you: "who gives a shit about gear?"
    If a person chooses to place those items under their own opinion of what p2w is that's on them.
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  7. #1747
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yes - collectors editions and similar frequently if not ALWAYS contain items that cannot be obtained any other way, even TBCC has the felstalker mount, which was not in TBC, and cannot be obtained any other way. Now, I realise your natural instinct to this reply will be to say "yeah, but none of that gives you any power!!!" but i will tick that box right now by quoting something that may be familiar to you: "who gives a shit about gear?"
    You can't be serious on this... it is not even remotely the same thing, comparing Collector Editions with in game gear that gives you extra power.

    Collector Edition versions of various games have been available for years; I have all the boxes from all the Guild Wars expansions as CE, they contain various extras like art books, sound track, posters and occasional special in game purely cosmetic items. It has absolutely nothing to do with P2W, does not provide me with any extra advantages in game against any other player, it was never considered that and everyone and their dog (used to) agree with that.
    This is pure jealousy that you don't have what other people have simply because you did not pay for it.
    You have a Nissan Micra but look at the guy driving a Lamborghini and say "that bastard, it's so unfair I don't have a Lambo as well".
    “Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not yet completely sure about the universe. - Albert Einstein”
    -------------------------------------------------

  8. #1748
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Yet another question you just dont want to answer? Yet another example of your "easy" option not being easy at all. Have a guess, how long do you think it would take to get ONE toon to 190 ilvl, and we can just multiply that by fifteen.
    It doesn't matter to the actual point. I have never once stated it won't take time to get the process set up. I don't know how long it takes to gear to 190 but I know it doesn't take that long. I answer the question. Again you don't like the answer so you ignore the answer and cry about how it wasn't answered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    If you spend it on power, it's P2W.
    You are not spending money on power though. You are spending gold on power. So it isn't pay to win according to the definition you just gave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NatePsy View Post
    Using gold to gain advantages is a normal part of the game, yes, when farmed through your own efforts in the game. Buying a token to acquire an advantage, ie, gold to buy power is P2W. You're paying Blizzard for gold to be used to get ahead of others who may not have the means to throw cash around, therefore being at a disadvantage because they can't simply just buy the gold themselves like the guy using rl money.
    You are paying a player are essentially paying a player $15 for the gold they spent farming for in game. You are buying gold. What you do with that gold is irrelevant to how you got the gold. Wealthy players always have an advantage over those that are poor. Who do you think supplies the gold for tokens? Wealthy players. That still doesn't make it pay to win just because someone makes use of having gold.

    The person that supplies the gold for a token can just as easily buy a carry with that gold. They choose the $15 gift card as a better option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    You keep changing the goal posts. 6 times you have been proven wrong and you keep going. What's next? The time is wrong because all my guys are 215 ilvl at least? You are done buddy. No one believes you because you have been proven wrong with math. It's just ridiculous that you even continue.
    I haven't been proven wrong at all. Or moved any goal posts. I have always been talking about the gold earned from callings. My math hasn't actually been proven wrong and the one person to try to claim it was wrong did their math incorrectly. It is why you and others shifted the goal posts to 200k, to time to level to 60, to time to gear up, to time for a calling, to repetition is makes easy things hard, and everything else you keep trying to use.

    The fact you even bring slavery into this shows how dishonest you are and how you have a weird need to villify something you don't agree with. Choosing to do something is never slavery. An optional way to get the gold that was originally stated is not slavery. A person asked how it was possible. I proved one way it was possible and instead of accepting the possibility it is meet with "Lol thats slavery" and other ignorance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    The meaning is very clear for "P2W".
    No it isn't if you are still arguing that a levels are not buying power. That is part of the problem. The definition is clear but the way everyone applies it is subjective. A level skip is buying power in wow even if it doesn't bring you to end-game relevant levels. It is still an advantage over leveling it manually. Oh right you actually see a level boost as a disadvantage.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #1749
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    No it isn't if you are still arguing that a levels are not buying power. That is part of the problem. The definition is clear but the way everyone applies it is subjective. A level skip is buying power in wow even if it doesn't bring you to end-game relevant levels. It is still an advantage over leveling it manually. Oh right you actually see a level boost as a disadvantage.
    Just because you and a few others want to twist the definition to fit your needs doesn't mean it isn't clear.

  10. #1750
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Just because you and a few others want to twist the definition to fit your needs doesn't mean it isn't clear.
    But we are not twisting the definition to fit. The definition states nothing about relevancy of the advantage. Only that an advantage, of power, is being bought. The hilarious thing about your comment is that you are actually twisting it so levels do not fit. Lol.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #1751
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretorian View Post
    Paying other players gold in game for them to boost you through Dungeons/Raids (so you can get your items/achievements) has always happened since Vanilla.
    Even if you pay to be carried, you might not get the items you want because the drops are random, not controlled by the players therefore your "win" is not guaranteed.

    Not everyone has friends to run mythics with or like to be part of a particular sort of guild in order to be able to do this. For some people is not possible to be online at a specified time on a certain day in order to raid. No issue here whatsoever.

    How come it wasn't classed as P2W until the Token was introduced?

    I got gold in game, farmed by myself and bought 2 tokens off AH which I exchanged for game time. Where's the P2W? What have I won over who?

    I also bought a mount from the in-game shop because I really liked it. It goes at the same speed as any other mount in game, it just looks different - pure cosmetic.

    I have never paid other players in game to boost me through anything... where's the P2W? What am I doing wrong?!

    Trying to point out that just because you are able to get gold easily, it doesn't automatically mean you win over any other player; what you do with it is a choice and does not change the definition of the services provided by that game's developers.
    People's counter on the boosting is the excuse of "indirect P2W" and anything purchased with the gold from a token sale, or earned with the gold from the sale, no matter how far out, is P2W to some.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pretorian View Post
    You can't be serious on this... it is not even remotely the same thing, comparing Collector Editions with in game gear that gives you extra power.

    Collector Edition versions of various games have been available for years; I have all the boxes from all the Guild Wars expansions as CE, they contain various extras like art books, sound track, posters and occasional special in game purely cosmetic items. It has absolutely nothing to do with P2W, does not provide me with any extra advantages in game against any other player, it was never considered that and everyone and their dog (used to) agree with that.
    This is pure jealousy that you don't have what other people have simply because you did not pay for it.
    You have a Nissan Micra but look at the guy driving a Lamborghini and say "that bastard, it's so unfair I don't have a Lambo as well".
    According to some in this thread, that is apparently "visual advantage"
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  12. #1752
    Im pretty sure that this thread is actually doing more harm than good by bastardizing the definition of "pay to win" by trying to morph it into whatever fits the argument.

  13. #1753
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It doesn't matter to the actual point. I have never once stated it won't take time to get the process set up. I don't know how long it takes to gear to 190 but I know it doesn't take that long. I answer the question. Again you don't like the answer so you ignore the answer and cry about how it wasn't answered.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You are not spending money on power though. You are spending gold on power. So it isn't pay to win according to the definition you just gave.

    - - - Updated - - -



    You are paying a player are essentially paying a player $15 for the gold they spent farming for in game. You are buying gold. What you do with that gold is irrelevant to how you got the gold. Wealthy players always have an advantage over those that are poor. Who do you think supplies the gold for tokens? Wealthy players. That still doesn't make it pay to win just because someone makes use of having gold.

    The person that supplies the gold for a token can just as easily buy a carry with that gold. They choose the $15 gift card as a better option.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I haven't been proven wrong at all. Or moved any goal posts. I have always been talking about the gold earned from callings. My math hasn't actually been proven wrong and the one person to try to claim it was wrong did their math incorrectly. It is why you and others shifted the goal posts to 200k, to time to level to 60, to time to gear up, to time for a calling, to repetition is makes easy things hard, and everything else you keep trying to use.

    The fact you even bring slavery into this shows how dishonest you are and how you have a weird need to villify something you don't agree with. Choosing to do something is never slavery. An optional way to get the gold that was originally stated is not slavery. A person asked how it was possible. I proved one way it was possible and instead of accepting the possibility it is meet with "Lol thats slavery" and other ignorance.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No it isn't if you are still arguing that a levels are not buying power. That is part of the problem. The definition is clear but the way everyone applies it is subjective. A level skip is buying power in wow even if it doesn't bring you to end-game relevant levels. It is still an advantage over leveling it manually. Oh right you actually see a level boost as a disadvantage.
    I'm spending money on a currency to purchase power. P2W.

  14. #1754
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I'm spending money on a currency to purchase power. P2W.
    I agree, remove gear from the game. /s

  15. #1755
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But we are not twisting the definition to fit. The definition states nothing about relevancy of the advantage. Only that an advantage, of power, is being bought. The hilarious thing about your comment is that you are actually twisting it so levels do not fit. Lol.
    Except when it comes to WoW, there's barely any difference between being level 1 or level 50.
    You can argue until you're blue in the face all you want, but WoW has always been designed around the end game, with maybe the exception of Vanilla.
    And the fact is, Blizzard has bundled in multiple boosts along the way with expansions. So it is something everyone's had access to at this point, extra boosts only serve to give a person more characters to play.

    On top of that, every content patch to an expansion is based around being max level. Every new raid, dungeon, etc, max level.

    But you think a level boost is "P2W", while being able to straight up buy gold isn't. When you can use gold to get actual character power, through gear. A level 1 and a level 50 might as well be the same thing in regards to WoW's design.

  16. #1756
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    I'm spending money on a currency to purchase power. P2W.
    You spend money on the currency. What you do with the currency is not related to how you got that currency. Gold isn't a currency just created for being bought with money. Pokemongo has a currency like that where you primarily get it from buying it and are limited to 50 coins a day for free (if you defend a gym for long enough). That would be an instance of pay to win from buying the currency.

    That isn't the case for wow due to how gold works.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #1757
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You spend money on the currency. What you do with the currency is not related to how you got that currency. Gold isn't a currency just created for being bought with money. Pokemongo has a currency like that where you primarily get it from buying it and are limited to 50 coins a day for free (if you defend a gym for long enough). That would be an instance of pay to win from buying the currency.

    That isn't the case for wow due to how gold works.
    I mean -- either he's advocating for gear to be removed from the game or for gold to be removed from the game at this point.

  18. #1758
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Except when it comes to WoW, there's barely any difference between being level 1 or level 50.
    Doesn't matter. The definition of pay to win is clear. Stop twisting it and ignoring it when it won't match up with your personal views. Levels are undeniably power related in WoW. A level 15 is more powerful then a level 1. A level 30 is more powerful then a level 20. Buying gold isn't pay to win because you win nothing from just having gold and it isn't being bought from Blizzard.

    A level skip is being bought directly from Blizzard for money. That is pay to win. A token is buying gold from a player. What you do with that gold is up to you but it confers no inherent win.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #1759
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Doesn't matter. The definition of pay to win is clear. Stop twisting it and ignoring it when it won't match up with your personal views. Levels are undeniably power related in WoW. A level 15 is more powerful then a level 1. A level 30 is more powerful then a level 20. Buying gold isn't pay to win because you win nothing from just having gold and it isn't being bought from Blizzard.

    A level skip is being bought directly from Blizzard for money. That is pay to win. A token is buying gold from a player. What you do with that gold is up to you but it confers no inherent win.
    Levels are irrelevant. No one is getting gladiator status at level 50 when it's old content.
    No one is getting CE.

    THAT is what would be considered "winning" in WoW if there is anything close. Completing current content. At whatever level you consider relevant to yourself, even if that's AotC or just normal/1600 rating.

  20. #1760
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Levels are irrelevant. No one is getting gladiator status at level 50 when it's old content.
    No one is getting CE. THAT is what would be considered "winning" in WoW if there is anything close. Completing current content. At whatever level you consider relevant to yourself, even if that's AotC or just normal/1600 rating.
    Tell me in your clear definition of Pay to Win where does it talk about relevancy? If relevance is subjective and dependent on the individual then you just included level skips as pay to win.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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