1. #1941
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    I did not say they can buy it first week, I said they can buy CE.
    Sure, it isn't good enough for everyone, but I guarantee you it would be good enough for most people.

    Those who truly want server or world first will either put the time in for it or recognize they have other things in life to attend to and not lose sleep over it.

    WoW was once not P2W.

    It now is.

    Stop trying with this debate. Back in Vanilla, TBC, WotLK, Cata, MoP... remind me when the tokens were implemented please? We could not through any Blizzard-sanctioned methods, buy gold for real world money and then use it to buy stuff like this. One way or the other, you had to put in tons of effort in game to make the gold and then spend it how you will.
    Actually, we could, though more steps. TCG cards (Tradeable BoEs) could be purchased with real money, and then claimed in-game for either usage or sale on the auction house for gold.

    WoW was by people's choices of term creation in this thread, indirect P2W since October 2006 as the token is an indirect win as well.
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  2. #1942
    Well I have bought three max level boosts the 5 last years, with in game gold. So not p2w. Did not pay blizzard a DIME of real money myself.

    Funny like that.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  3. #1943
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Well I have bought three max level boosts the 5 last years, with in game gold. So not p2w. Did not pay blizzard a DIME of real money myself.

    Funny like that.
    That is why I love the token. It permits people to utilize their hoarded gold instead of sitting on it like god damn Smaug. I purchased Shadowlands with my gold, and it was brilliant, still sitting on a crap ton of it.

    Though, sadly to some in the thread, because we interacted with the token in some form, it is P2W.
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  4. #1944
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    That is why I love the token. It permits people to utilize their hoarded gold instead of sitting on it like god damn Smaug. I purchased Shadowlands with my gold, and it was brilliant, still sitting on a crap ton of it.

    Though, sadly to some in the thread, because we interacted with the token in some form, it is P2W.
    Yeah, love the token. I did count late in BfA, that I had used more than 1000 dollars of gold on blizzard games, sub, mounts etc, BfA/SL Expansions and other shit. Since Argus launched, I earned in average 42.5k gold PER DAY from the Class Hall with 9 characters doing the thingy. And then you had BoE, gold from WQ(remember when you could get 150g from each WQ, great times) and so on.

    But not only for personal gains, cause it makes so that people that have low income, or even unemployed can find a way to pay for the sub
    Last edited by Doffen; 2021-06-19 at 09:33 PM.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  5. #1945
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Yeah, love the token. I did count late in BfA, that I had used more than 1000 dollars of gold on blizzard games, sub, mounts etc, BfA/SL Expansions and other shit. Since Argus launched, I earned in average 42.5k gold PER DAY from the Class Hall with 9 characters doing the thingy. And then you had BoE, gold from WQ(remember when you could get 150g from each WQ, great times) and so on.

    But not only for personal gains, cause it makes so that people that have low income, or even unemployed can find a way to pay for the sub
    I've helped a good amount of people getting game-time in WoW by offering some coin so they could get some. The wife and I have upgraded the expansion of SL with gold only, and I know a good few who's basically played WoW for free since the token was added, stacking up with the use of gold.

    At my current playstyle, rather casual, I still haul in about 300k gold a month without the use of auction house (unless I have a trigger for shopping.. you know.. that one transmog missing).
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  6. #1946
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Well I have bought three max level boosts the 5 last years, with in game gold. So not p2w. Did not pay blizzard a DIME of real money myself.

    Funny like that.
    That's like saying that the extra bars on SWTOR are not a predatory practice just because you were able to purchase them from credits earned in-game, from the marketplace.

  7. #1947
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Actually, we could, though more steps. TCG cards (Tradeable BoEs) could be purchased with real money, and then claimed in-game for either usage or sale on the auction house for gold.

    WoW was by people's choices of term creation in this thread, indirect P2W since October 2006 as the token is an indirect win as well.
    Okay. Yes. That's a way. It's far more indirect than the token though, let's not equate them.
    "For Teldrassil."
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  8. #1948
    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    Okay. Yes. That's a way. It's far more indirect than the token though, let's not equate them.
    Is it far more though? You buy the TCG item, enter the code, get a in-game item and list it on the AH. Someone buys it for gold. You use that gold to buy a BoE or a carry. Why does the level of indirectness even matter?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #1949
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    Okay. Yes. That's a way. It's far more indirect than the token though, let's not equate them.
    But they are the same thing, just more steps.
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  10. #1950
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Is it far more though? You buy the TCG item, enter the code, get a in-game item and list it on the AH. Someone buys it for gold. You use that gold to buy a BoE or a carry. Why does the level of indirectness even matter?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    But they are the same thing, just more steps.
    You guys are both ignoring the fact that having to trust strangers on ebay was involved. Then waiting for it to ship. Then hoping it sells for enough gold.

    Right now, you can buy a token in-game and within seconds list it on the AH and Blizzard tells you it /will/ sell for X amount of gold.

    There's definitely some differences. Plus, most things people wanted to buy back then weren't exactly cheap to buy on Ebay. $800 spectral tiger? Are you kidding? Now people can just plop $20 in and get ~110k or so gold almost instantly. Be a little more realistic, guys.
    "For Teldrassil."
    Quote Originally Posted by mmocd061d7bab8 View Post
    yeh but lava is just very hot water

  11. #1951
    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    You guys are both ignoring the fact that having to trust strangers on ebay was involved. Then waiting for it to ship. Then hoping it sells for enough gold.
    If I am ignoring that, which I never said I was, then are you not ignoring people that bought the loot cards themselves? Indirect is indirect. What level of extra steps makes something acceptable?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #1952
    Who cares? How does someone else paying for a Mythic clear effect your gameplay? Do you also get mad because rich people can afford Lamborghinis?

    I could care less what other buy in wow, it does not make raids any more or less difficult for me.

  13. #1953
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltrusDisc View Post
    You guys are both ignoring the fact that having to trust strangers on ebay was involved. Then waiting for it to ship. Then hoping it sells for enough gold.

    Right now, you can buy a token in-game and within seconds list it on the AH and Blizzard tells you it /will/ sell for X amount of gold.

    There's definitely some differences. Plus, most things people wanted to buy back then weren't exactly cheap to buy on Ebay. $800 spectral tiger? Are you kidding? Now people can just plop $20 in and get ~110k or so gold almost instantly. Be a little more realistic, guys.
    You even have to trust strangers before being able to get your boost, though?

    And TCG has already sold out from vendors, Blizzard has earned their coin on every TCG item existing and thus is claimed in-game, bought from eBay or saved/found/won does not matter, real money was used to gain an in-game advantage. What you earn from TCG which can be millions depending on the item, is still an advantage. We have been told in this thread, that the use of real money to gain in-game currency, is an advantage (so, any currency).

    Or is it now only indirect P2W if it has a security feature? It is not P2W because of more steps then?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Moozart View Post
    Who cares? How does someone else paying for a Mythic clear effect your gameplay? Do you also get mad because rich people can afford Lamborghinis?

    I could care less what other buy in wow, it does not make raids any more or less difficult for me.
    Good view to have (the bold).
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  14. #1954
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    No WoW is not pay to win.

    But that's not the question you should be asking. That's a rather dumb question. Games that are blatantly pay to win wear it on their sleeve.

    No, the question you should be asking is "Is the cash shop harmful to the overall health of the game?" Which the answer to is unquestionably yes.
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    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  15. #1955
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post



    Well, it helps the market more than the two other options which are, ToS breaking gold and ToS breaking game-time.
    That is a very dubious statement, making it legal has arguably made a bad situation worse. Trying to make out Blizzard are trying to do it for the good of the game would have more credibility if they didn’t profit from it. Boosts for example should be free, so everyone can use them. By selling them they are effectively saying "yes its ok to cheat as long as you pay us".

  16. #1956
    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    By selling them they are effectively saying "yes its ok to cheat as long as you pay us".
    No, its them saying "its ok to purchase these products from us, but 3rd party sites are not ok".
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    Any sane person would see your a moron.
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    you have to be a moron to of said .

  17. #1957
    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    That is a very dubious statement, making it legal has arguably made a bad situation worse. Trying to make out Blizzard are trying to do it for the good of the game would have more credibility if they didn’t profit from it. Boosts for example should be free, so everyone can use them. By selling them they are effectively saying "yes its ok to cheat as long as you pay us".
    Blizzard is saying "Third party sites are against the ToS because they get the money instead of us. But you're fine if you throw the money at us instead."

  18. #1958
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    That is a very dubious statement, making it legal has arguably made a bad situation worse. Trying to make out Blizzard are trying to do it for the good of the game would have more credibility if they didn’t profit from it.
    So, Blizzard strangling the illegal market (ToS breaking) by offering players security and support is what makes it all bad? Dude, the situation was a firepit before the token. The shit had ALREADY hit the fence, and Blizzard stepped in to make it a common man service and with it, offered safety. The token gives 3 things and access to a third. One person gets gold from another, the other person gets game-time or credit, and with the credit, the ability to enjoy the options of the game.

    Before the token, it was, order gold from a third party seller with the option of, supporting stolen accounts, supporting scamming, supporting botting, or supporting people working at slave labor rates. So what with a fucking 5 dollar extra? You aren't forced to? It is not a necessary service to use? As stated before, I'd rather the token was in-game, buy game-time with gold, but that just makes it a gold sink.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFawlty View Post
    Boosts for example should be free, so everyone can use them. By selling them they are effectively saying "yes its ok to cheat as long as you pay us".
    Boosts shouldn't be free. By selling them, they are offering you a shortcut through old content, nothing more, the price is as it is to also discourage people from purchasing it. You are buying the catch-up. You are not catching up to current content, you are just entry-level as anyone else entering the new content. It is not necessary to use. You aren't forced to use it. Nor do you gain much from using it other than what? 5-8 hours casual leveling?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Blizzard is saying "Third party sites are against the ToS because they get the money instead of us. But you're fine if you throw the money at us instead."
    Ah yes, and guess where people go whining after third-party sites have scammed them, or made them part of a gold-selling job. Oh yeah, the forums and Blizzard support. There is a reason third-party sites are against the ToS, and it isn't just for the sake of money.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  19. #1959
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    So, Blizzard strangling the illegal market (ToS breaking) by offering players security and support is what makes it all bad? Dude, the situation was a firepit before the token. The shit had ALREADY hit the fence, and Blizzard stepped in to make it a common man service and with it, offered safety. The token gives 3 things and access to a third. One person gets gold from another, the other person gets game-time or credit, and with the credit, the ability to enjoy the options of the game.

    Before the token, it was, order gold from a third party seller with the option of, supporting stolen accounts, supporting scamming, supporting botting, or supporting people working at slave labor rates. So what with a fucking 5 dollar extra? You aren't forced to? It is not a necessary service to use? As stated before, I'd rather the token was in-game, buy game-time with gold, but that just makes it a gold sink.


    Boosts shouldn't be free. By selling them, they are offering you a shortcut through old content, nothing more, the price is as it is to also discourage people from purchasing it. You are buying the catch-up. You are not catching up to current content, you are just entry-level as anyone else entering the new content. It is not necessary to use. You aren't forced to use it. Nor do you gain much from using it other than what? 5-8 hours casual leveling?

    - - - Updated - - -


    Ah yes, and guess where people go whining after third-party sites have scammed them, or made them part of a gold-selling job. Oh yeah, the forums and Blizzard support. There is a reason third-party sites are against the ToS, and it isn't just for the sake of money.
    That's fair but I feel like the money aspect is definitely a big factor too.

  20. #1960
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No, its them saying "its ok to purchase these products from us, but 3rd party sites are not ok".
    Which is completely fine. I mean, their systems, their products. Don't like the products, then don't buy them. It is common in business like so.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That's fair but I feel like the money aspect is definitely a big factor too.
    Of course, it is. Blizzard could sell the fans, security! Blizzard could see the outcome of many cases, the state of many tickets and forums and think - we can give them what they want, but with added security but instead of sinking to the point of other games of selling the currency people crave, we make it a market. We make people trade with other people, so both are winners. Joe gets his gold, and Jill gets her game-time/credit.

    And all it cost was the loss of business for third-party sellers. Reduced scamming. Reduced hacking (to an extent, some people still don't secure their accounts enough). Reduced support cases. Reduced traffic about the topic. And all that cost them 5 dollars per transaction. And instead of making 1 player the winner and another the possible loser, two players get what they seek/need.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

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