1. #1961
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    for me I still think its hilarious that people equate having good gear from being carried is pay to win.. you can't make this up, the thread is 97 pages long and people just can't understand that a game they havent even played for 10 years is still better than they are

    Go back to Final Fantasy 14 Remastered or whatever its called lol
    Realm Reborn is the tag for the new version of FFXIV, just wanted to say, I experienced it before the rebirth, and witnessed horrors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Give me, right now you definition of Pay To Win.
    Purchase of advantage directly from the developer. The only thing classifying in that category, if time is an advantage, is the boost (It is a huge stretch for me, but the part I'm willing to agree on, as some people are not as good with managing time).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Before boost, people used to grind. I don't remember, since it was years ago, but i remember The Stockades being a good place to farm XP to reach high level. Also people used Deadmines. idk really....there used to be so many methods to grind, but that was time consuming and a long process. Now you can slip the Credit Card and get it instantly, or just play the game for hours or days and get it. Is still pay to win to use the boost.
    Funny, in the old days, Stockades, Deadmines, Shadowfang Keep, and the Scarlet dungeons were some of the most used dungeons for boosting. Back then, a lot of gold though was either more braindead grinding than today or by breaking ToS.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
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  2. #1962

    uh

    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    Yes, it is.
    1) You can use $$$ to buy a token which is equal to WOW gold.
    2) WOW gold can buy you: BOE gear and boosts (more gear).
    You can basically use $$$ to buy raid achieves (AOTC, KSM) and gear now.
    Blizz does nothing to stop the boosting because it drives token sales (goto line 1)
    Pay 2 win strictly means that in order to win you must pay real money. In games you can't actually win like MMORPG, in order to meet end game content and be able to play on par with other people means you have to pay real money or it wont be something you can do without carries. Which is false. People pay money where they don't need to because they suck or are lazy.

  3. #1963
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshimiko View Post
    You can buy gold.
    Gold can buy anything.

    Yes this game is p2w.
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Correct: Anything from the AH and Players
    Wait wait wait... You said correct to the top comment (I know he's banned) even though that is false?

    It is factually false.

    You buy GAME-TIME
    You trade GAME-TIME
    you earn GOLD

    You do not buy the gold.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  4. #1964
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    That is up to you.
    That's what I've been saying this entire time lol, what is and isn't P2W and what is and isn't acceptable once agreed that something IS p2w is an opinion and that's why this discussion is pointless because everyones opinion of it is different and no ones stance is going to change.
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  5. #1965
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Factually speaking, I am using cash to buy gold to buy power.
    Factually speaking, you are using cash to buy game-time, to trade for gold, to earn gold, to then trade for a chance of power.
    Stuff can be fixed, just get enough glue or duct tape!
    Roses are red, mana is blue. Suramar Guards, Will always find you!

  6. #1966
    Pay to win is when you have to pay real money to be on par and play with others at end game content. Which is not WoW. People pay money for carries and gear and gold because for the majority , 1 Suck at the game and are not competent or they are just lazy. Might have alts, might be really busy and can afford it. Since you can earn your own gear and reputation and gold and everything WoW is not pay 2 win because it offers things to players that cost real money.

  7. #1967
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    Don't know what to tell you. Cash gets me power, directly.
    How is having to go to players or the Auction House direct? You don't pay cash and directly get power with a token. Because gold isn't power.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  8. #1968
    Quote Originally Posted by NotGeorgia View Post
    Pay to win is when you have to pay real money to be on par and play with others at end game content. Which is not WoW.
    So by your definition, logging into wow, going to the cash shop, and paying $500 to Blizzard who instantly mail you full BiS pvp and raid gear is not P2W?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  9. #1969
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So by your definition, logging into wow, going to the cash shop, and paying $500 to Blizzard who instantly mail you full BiS pvp and raid gear is not P2W?
    I don't pay blizzard anything more than my monthly sub. I do end content also. Pay 2 Win means if you want to do something like get 2.4k in arenas or mythic the latest raid then you would only be able to get that done by paying $$$ so that you can be on par and do it. Because you don't have to pay anyone anything to get any of these done it isn't P2W. Its your own choice to pay.

  10. #1970
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How is having to go to players or the Auction House direct? You don't pay cash and directly get power with a token. Because gold isn't power.
    It's direct because it's directly available in the game itself.

    I am spending cash to up my power. That is P2W.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NotGeorgia View Post
    Pay to win is when you have to pay real money to be on par and play with others at end game content. Which is not WoW. People pay money for carries and gear and gold because for the majority , 1 Suck at the game and are not competent or they are just lazy. Might have alts, might be really busy and can afford it. Since you can earn your own gear and reputation and gold and everything WoW is not pay 2 win because it offers things to players that cost real money.
    Where in the world does it say that you have to? The definition is in the phrase itself. You pay, to win.

    Doesn't matter how, or why, or how many steps. You're still paying cash in exchange for power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Factually speaking, you are using cash to buy game-time, to trade for gold, to earn gold, to then trade for a chance of power.
    Exactly. You only get a chance, which is even shittier considering how much you gotta pay for that chance.

    Chance or no chance though. You are still paying.. to win.

  11. #1971
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    It's direct because it's directly available in the game itself. I am spending cash to up my power. That is P2W.
    Which means it is indirect. Because your cash is not directly going towards getting the power. It requires players to offer an item or service to you.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  12. #1972
    Elemental Lord Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Ok....let me understand. Gold is not important for you?
    You can earn gold for free...that's my point. I don't need to spend money to get gold. You can't buy the best gear in the game with that gold either...you still need to do the work and do mythics or rated
    #WithoutRespectWeReject

  13. #1973
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which means it is indirect. Because your cash is not directly going towards getting the power. It requires players to offer an item or service to you.
    What do you mean? These are services I can purchase that are directly in the game itself.

  14. #1974
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    What do you mean? These are services I can purchase that are directly in the game itself.
    What they are saying is that the moment you add ANY additional step in, it immediately stops being P2W. So unless you swipe your card and the actual items are sent to your in game mail, it is not P2W. For example, apparently purchasing Tier Tokens with a credit card, which are traded at a vendor for mythic raid gear would NOT be P2W, because you buy the Tier Token with the card, not the item itself, and the Tier Token does not grant you power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  15. #1975
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    What do you mean? These are services I can purchase that are directly in the game itself.
    Which means you do not directly buy the power with cash like you've claimed. Having to go to players and ask them to offer a run at that moment is not direct.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What they are saying is that the moment you add ANY additional step in, it immediately stops being P2W. So unless you swipe your card and the actual items are sent to your in game mail, it is not P2W. For example, apparently purchasing Tier Tokens with a credit card, which are traded at a vendor for mythic raid gear would NOT be P2W, because you buy the Tier Token with the card, not the item itself, and the Tier Token does not grant you power.
    It is weird that you cling to a lie when you've been directly told that the situation you describe would be pay to win and is 100% different to how the token functions. A tier token supplied by blizzard from a blizzard vendor is direct pay to win. The tier token in your example does grant power because its sole purpose is to grant gear, the power, for your real money transaction. Thus pay to win.

    The purpose of gold is not just to grant power. The power it can grant is a natural part of the game design since Vanilla (BoE and group play). You pay for gold to skip the effort needed to farm it yourself. What you do with the gold does not mean the purchasing of gold is a win.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #1976
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The purpose of gold is not just to grant power.
    So one of the purposes of gold is to grant power, and you can purchase gold with a credit card, but thats NOT P2W?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  17. #1977
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    So one of the purposes of gold is to grant power, and you can purchase gold with a credit card, but thats NOT P2W?
    Yes. Because the gold naturally has that ability. You pay for gold and all it is designed to do. That win is not guaranteed to happen and is provided by other players just as the gold was. Do you consider a subscription to be pay to win?
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  18. #1978
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Do you consider a subscription to be pay to win?
    How does paying a subscription grant you an advantage over other players in the game?
    Quote Originally Posted by Utrrabbit View Post
    Any sane person would see your a moron.
    Quote Originally Posted by OokOok View Post
    you have to be a moron to of said .

  19. #1979
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    How does paying a subscription grant you an advantage over other players in the game?
    How does having gold grant you an advantage over other players in the game? A subscription technically gives advantages over a free/starter trial account. But both are indirect cash for power transactions if we use your definitions. But a subscription is not pay to win and a token is not as well. The gold gained from a token was already the advantage of another player. That player choose to give you their advantage so you didn't gain something other players do not have already.

    It is why the design of the currency and source matter to a discussion like this.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  20. #1980
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which means you do not directly buy the power with cash like you've claimed. Having to go to players and ask them to offer a run at that moment is not direct.

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    It is weird that you cling to a lie when you've been directly told that the situation you describe would be pay to win and is 100% different to how the token functions. A tier token supplied by blizzard from a blizzard vendor is direct pay to win. The tier token in your example does grant power because its sole purpose is to grant gear, the power, for your real money transaction. Thus pay to win.

    The purpose of gold is not just to grant power. The power it can grant is a natural part of the game design since Vanilla (BoE and group play). You pay for gold to skip the effort needed to farm it yourself. What you do with the gold does not mean the purchasing of gold is a win.
    What are you talking about? These services are directly in the game.

    I'll buy gold to purchase these things and Bkuzz receives 100% of the proceeds. P2W.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    How does having gold grant you an advantage over other players in the game? A subscription technically gives advantages over a free/starter trial account. But both are indirect cash for power transactions if we use your definitions. But a subscription is not pay to win and a token is not as well. The gold gained from a token was already the advantage of another player. That player choose to give you their advantage so you didn't gain something other players do not have already.

    It is why the design of the currency and source matter to a discussion like this.
    How doesn't it hold an advantage? Players without it can't afford these boosts. Purchasing the gold allows you to undermine the work that goes into making the gold organically. You're skipping the process of farming so that you can get what you want faster.

    That's exactly P2W lol

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