1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Things other people have had for months, you mean. That's your problem here; you're introducing unspoken limits that render your claims meaningless when removed by implicitly only comparing to a new character. But your competition isn't just new characters. Most of it is already existing characters that have all of that stuff, usually way better than the crappy boosted gear. You don't really need to grind for any of that, either. Better than boosted gear is handed out like candy by the game.

    And of course choosing the expansion is skipping. You're skipping all other expansions.

    None of your arguments work when compared to the real world because you keep focusing on your cherry picked sharply limited scenarios where you're right, but those aren't the only ones that matter.
    It's not fucking skipping because you still have to level. You're just opting to level somewhere else. That's as asinine as saying dungeon leveling is the same as paying for a boost because you're "skipping" content. You seem to be leaving out the key factor: YOU STILL HAVE TO FUCKING LEVEL. Meanwhile, people who spend $60 get to skip all that leveling.

    My arguments only don't work if you refuse to use logic. So you just keep doing mental gymnastics because the alternative is actually admitting you're wrong for once.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Saying not to change words based on feelings is semantics? Weird how you both think that is wrong despite doing it early and is not something you said. Lol.
    No, I said that WoW isn't P2W. I followed that up with clarifications about why I think it isn't P2W. You interjected with a tangent about how levels are "player power" so therefore it's like, you know, "kinda P2W" to which I told you not to do because including the irrelevant player power gained through a level boost in the definition of P2W makes it more difficult to discern whether somebody is making a 0 IQ statement when they say "WoW is P2W" if, you know, they're using your silly definition. It just makes things messy for internet discussions. You've since quoted me five times with "WELL ACKTSHUALLY" nonsense about how you feel like your definition is correct because of some ridiculous contingency and I'm just being stubborn for refusing to concede something I said I wouldn't do at the beginning of this discussion. You and I don't even fully disagree, I simply would prefer if level boosts were not to be considered a form of P2W because it further detracts from discussion about actual P2W policies. Your point is valid but it one of semantics. This whole paragraph is semantics. And I fucking hate it. So please do not respond to this post because I won't bother continuing this discussion further.

  3. #523
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    So please do not respond to this post because I won't bother continuing this discussion further.
    You have said that several times already and you keep indicating you want to discuss more by responding. If it makes it more difficult to discern an argument about buying power then it clearly is not semantics and is relavant to the definition of player power. You keep trying to define it by feelings by insult, calling things 0 IQ, and everything else but the kitchen sink.

    If we keep feelings out of it then a level boost is buying power which is what "Pay to win" means. It doesn't mean buying relevant power. Otherwise selling of Mythic raid gear once hall of fame has been cleared would be acceptable and not pay to win. You got triggered when your own argument to another was used against you. And instead of saying "My bad I did use feelings to redefine a word" you keep ranting like a bad information. Just when we think you done you pop out of the interweb to shout "But wait there is more!".

    If we don't fully disagree by your own words why do you keep trying to tell me that I am wrong? You keep point out a lot of issues with yourself including an impulse one if the only way you can stop responding is if another person stops for you.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Make up your mind, tree!
    Quote Originally Posted by callipygoustp View Post
    Not at all. Come on man.
    *giggle* The tree is right.

    You summed this thread with those two post of yours, bravo

  5. #525
    Yet again, just like the casual vs hardcore garbage, the issue here isnt whether wow is P2W or not, but rather what the definition of P2W actually is in this context. And THAT is the problem - because just like the casual vs hardcore crap, it is subjective. There is no doubt a very rigid definition somewhere on the interwebs about what P2W actually means, but ill throw a few definitions down that i have seen from different people:

    - using real money to purchase something that gives you an advantage over others in game
    - using real money to purchase something that is not obtainable by regular play
    - using real money to purchase something that reduces the time to complete a task - rep boosts, xp boosts, lvl boosts
    - using real money to purchase something that directly increases a max level characters power - buying gear
    - using real money to purchase something that allows the player to entirely skip certain aspects of the game

    Those all seem quite similar, but the differences are important. They are important because they tie in to a players perception of what "winning" actually is, or what an "advantage" actually is. Based on a players motivation in game, they may consider something P2W, while someone with entirely different motivations in game thinks its not. For someone who plays wow only to collect mounts - thats their main or only goal in game, offering up mounts on the store that can only be purchased through the store might be considered P2W. For someone whos only focus is raiding, they may or may not give a shit at all.

    What it boils down to is there are far too many variables involved to definitively say one way or the other if a game is P2W, and that is especially true in a diverse game like wow, with an even more diverse player base with varied motivations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias1337 View Post
    There is difference if you as developer sopport selling tokens for real money to get gold to get boost and farming gold by yourself by playin game to get boost and buying gold from 3rd party website to get gold which isnt legal. Just becouse there was few players back in older game buying gold from farmers for real money then propably got banned few days later doesnt mean its same thing what we have now on retail.
    "few players" my ass, there was so many players buying and selling gold that blizzard rather introduced token than ban all of them...
    and please, stop using words legal/ilegal, it was 100% legal, it was against rules of the game, if you check how people use bugs you can see how much they care about TOS...

    hell my old guild was selling gold/boosts/items since vanila for over a decade, never any of us nor any of our customers get baned, thats bcs blizzard didnt realy have problem with people selling/buying shite even though its against TOS, they mostly only had issues with people runing scams and shady websited, phishing and shit like that...

    and sure, its different HOWEVER, it was 100% possible to get boost or buy items/gold since vanila, and even back then people were buying all that shite from other players not from blizzard - like they do now - what changed is now blizzard gets a cut, thats it...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2021-06-03 at 09:38 PM.

  7. #527
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    It's not fucking skipping because you still have to level. You're just opting to level somewhere else. That's as asinine as saying dungeon leveling is the same as paying for a boost because you're "skipping" content. You seem to be leaving out the key factor: YOU STILL HAVE TO FUCKING LEVEL. Meanwhile, people who spend $60 get to skip all that leveling.

    My arguments only don't work if you refuse to use logic. So you just keep doing mental gymnastics because the alternative is actually admitting you're wrong for once.
    It's still skipping something. That it isn't skipping leveling in particular doesn't change that it is still skipping.

    You really shouldn't call out others for being unable to admit they're wrong when you keep tying yourself in a knot trying to avoid it yourself.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's still skipping something. That it isn't skipping leveling in particular doesn't change that it is still skipping.

    You really shouldn't call out others for being unable to admit they're wrong when you keep tying yourself in a knot trying to avoid it yourself.
    I haven't tied myself into fucking anything. It's not the same as ACTUALLY skipping huge portions of content and time investment by dropping $60. Comparing choosing what expansion to level in with the paid character boost is beyond idiotic.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If we don't fully disagree by your own words why do you keep trying to tell me that I am wrong? You keep point out a lot of issues with yourself including an impulse one if the only way you can stop responding is if another person stops for you.
    Man, what the fuck is this? I can either not respond and you smugly walk away thinking you defeated me with facts and logic or I respond to your question and you say "haha u said u weren't responding but u responded, GOTTEM"

    There's no winning semantic arguments. Just like there's no winning when you pay to WoW.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Paying for heroes who are part of Meta or new heroes that are freshly released who might be OP sure is more P2W than anything WoW has.
    If you are new and don't shell out money for heroes you have to be lucky on free rotations and/or chests you get. I recently started playing and I got some heroes but it's not exactly going quickly. If I shell out money though I get all heroes I need.
    Your point is very interesting, because I never understood why somebody would pay money for champions, when they are given to you for free teally, really fast.
    My original argument stays true tho, if you are new, buying a meta champ will bot boost your winrate. Buying better items in WoW will.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    White knights will soon chime in with "you don't win anything by buying tokens", but that's only if you assume that you can't "win" (in a traditional sense) in an MMO. But by that logic, nothing could ever possibly be P2W, not even selling full mythic sets in the store, since you don't win anything by buying a full mythic set

    But if we count skipping tedious grinds and/or having instant access to the best gear in the game, as well as the most prestigious titles in the current season as "winning", then WoW is definitely P2W, even if not as blatantly as other games.
    Winning over who, exactly?

    If you buy a boost, then someone else has already not only cleared the content, but mastered it to the extent to which it is so trivial to them they can literally carry other people. You are certainly not winning over these people.

    Is it really winning if you're still behind everyone else who cared enough to try? Is it the shortcut you consider winning? They win because they spend less time playing the game?

    No, you don't win anything. You lose because you spend money on things nobody cares about whether you have or not. The people who sell the boosts just wins twice.

  12. #532
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    What it boils down to is there are far too many variables involved to definitively say one way or the other if a game is P2W, and that is especially true in a diverse game like wow, with an even more diverse player base with varied motivations.
    Many variables have been crossed between in the arguments and statements, and just as you say, due to the topic, some variables are being scuffed off or replaced by others.


    Oh, and according to the thread, you apparently missed "- using real money to purchase something that allows the player to sell an item to gain currency".
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  13. #533
    "If a power/advantage can be obtained through grinding, then it's not pay 2 win even if you can immediatly obtain them using gold"

    If that's what you think, then large majority of mobile F2P game are not P2W. Because most of them allows you to grind for premium currencys for free by doing daily quest.. etc. Since you can obtain premium currency through daily grinding, it's not Pay 2 win even if you can spend money to buy them to skip the grinding.... Yeah.. ok..

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    Many variables have been crossed between in the arguments and statements, and just as you say, due to the topic, some variables are being scuffed off or replaced by others.


    Oh, and according to the thread, you apparently missed "- using real money to purchase something that allows the player to sell an item to gain currency".
    Im guessing you are referring to the token?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyanion View Post
    In no way are you entitled to the 'complete' game when you buy it, because DLC/cosmetics and so on are there for companies to make more money
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Others, including myself, are saying that they only exist because Blizzard needed to create things so they could monetize it.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by Semihagez View Post
    "If a power/advantage can be obtained through grinding, then it's not pay 2 win even if you can immediatly obtain them using gold"

    If that's what you think, then large majority of mobile F2P game are not P2W. Because most of them allows you to grind for premium currencys and obtain them for free by doing daily quest.. etc. Since you can obtain premium currency through daily grinding, therefore it's not Pay 2 win even if you can spend money to buy them to skip the grinding.... Yeah.. ok..
    But WoW isn't a mobile game. Why are you comparing mobile games to WoW?

  16. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Im guessing you are referring to the token?
    Aye, as people have announced that as P2W due to its ability to give a player gold when sold. So, token/TCG.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Oakshana View Post
    Chromie time was made to simplify the leveling process, since they compressed the necessary level for endgame from 120 to 60, and you already didn't need to spend time in more than one or two zones per expansion content to outlevel it. They didn't make Chromie time for the effect of skipping content, they did it to make your leveling experience from 1 to 50 a more cohesive story while you leveled.

    Seriously, when 120 was still level cap, as soon as you hit 80, you did MAYBE Hyjal and a part of one other zone before you hit 85 and then moved to Pandaria. Where you then hit the cap for that content shortly into the Valley of the Four Winds, before moving on to WoD. How you think Chromie time is skipping content any more than we technically already were is mind boggling to say the least.
    I didn't say half of what you're saying though.

    The side effect of Chromie time does cause you to skip a lot.

    Was that already an issue, sure, but I didn't say otherwise. I didn't say it was made to skip content either though, just that by its nature is does.

  18. #538
    I can not buy the BiS gear in the blizz store..

    so it's obviously not P2W.. How is this even a question?

    and No i do not consider going through 3rd party like boosters to be "Winning"

    Awsome signature and avatar made by Kuragalolz

  19. #539
    The Lightbringer Draknalor186's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    But WoW isn't a mobile game. Why are you comparing mobile games to WoW?
    Blizzard is trying very hard to slowely "ease" players into the Mobile game mindset tho.

  20. #540
    Quote Originally Posted by Draknalor186 View Post
    Blizzard is trying very hard to slowely "ease" players into the Mobile game mindset tho.
    Just because you perceive it that way doesn't mean that's what happening.

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