1. #681
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    Quote Originally Posted by loadedaxe View Post
    What are you winning. Time savings? And yes this topic has come up multiple times and always ends the same. The only people complaining about tokens are the ones that can’t afford them. If Blizzard released the names of people buying them you would be shocked, and most would be from people that shame the idea on forums.

    If they took it away, people would again be complaining about gold sellers and mass amounts of bots. There is no perfect solution, but the one in place currently is working.

    Watch what you wish for, you just might get it.
    I like tokens. It allows people to give me gold that I can then use to buy tokens, tokens that they're selling to buy boosts from me

  2. #682
    At this point its hard for me to say no.

    By extension or by design. Its really hard for Blizzard to stop it even if they wanted.

    I'd say the direct line atm is:

    Buy Token with money => Get gold from token => Pay for various ingame boosts

    The only thing blizzard can do is remove the token, but since this just leads to more people buying gold off of illegal websites its hardly going to change anything.

    Stopping people from selling boosts to various endgame content is virtually impossible

    Blizzard choosing to sell the token is probably why id call it pay to win though. If people had to buy the token illegally to pay for the boosts or farm the gold ingame or something - at least Blizzard wouldnt by extension support it - so that would mean it wasnt pay 2 win but just player controlled bad behavior
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2021-06-04 at 10:55 AM.

  3. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    So, ignoring the blatant ignorance of this post...
    a) Not sure what you mean by "not surprised" seeing as I'm not the person you were arguing with to begin with.
    b) Cosmetics are not pay to win.
    c) Needing to buy a game is not pay to win.

    Feel free to try and make up your own definitions of pay to win- all the while trying to argue random, irrelevant semantics over said definitions- though. That certainly won't make you seem more ridiculous.

    PS. You said to name a game that isn't currently pay to win, which I did. Not to name one that couldn't be made pay to win (even though your current 'ideas' don't actually do that).
    A) So why argue then? I’m 99% sure you quoted me, and I replied. Coming up with some ridiculed shit like pong, and that is not ”arguing irrelevant semantics”? Well you said it, and I replied, like promised, which is why I said ”I dare you”.
    B) Aren’t they though? But I, as a special snowflake feel that they sure are, as I, as a special snowflake only play for cosmetics, and they sure are my grain of salt.
    C) But the game is free now isn’t it? It wasn’t free 50 years ago so in order to win, I needed to pay.

    My own definitions for pay to win are quite simple. You have to pay, to win.
    For example, unlocking talents with in-game-currency which you only get by using real life currency.
    Or
    Unlocking a ”hero” which has a gamebreaking skill let’s say a disable, but only if you use real life currency, the free ”heroes” only pop up flowers which do not disable opposing heroes.
    I’m sure these examples were not needed, but better to make sure incase another pong-alike reply comes up.
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  4. #684
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    So, looking over, we have a list of...

    WoW has always been indirectly P2W if we count the illegal abilities to complete content or gain gold.

    WoW has been exclusive P2W since October 2006 as TCG items demanded gambling and money to get, and sold for a high amount of money, or gold.

    WoW has been turned P2W for everyone in WoD (6.1.2 (If I recall right (token))).

    WoW is P2W because you can purchase a boost to save time.

    WoW is P2W because you can get gold from other players by selling items purchased with real money (Indirect with TCG/Token).

    WoW is P2W because you can purchase mounts, pets, and cosmetics.

    WoW does currently not offer the sales of power.

    WoW does currently not offer the sales of currency.

    WoW does currently not offer shortcuts through current content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    The only thing blizzard can do is remove the token, but since this just leads to more people buying gold off of illegal websites its hardly going to change anything.
    Even without the token, WoW would still be P2W because you can earn gold by selling TCG items in WoW too.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  5. #685
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    So, looking over, we have a list of...

    WoW has always been indirectly P2W if we count the illegal abilities to complete content or gain gold.

    WoW has been exclusive P2W since October 2006 as TCG items demanded gambling and money to get, and sold for a high amount of money, or gold.

    WoW has been turned P2W for everyone in WoD (6.1.2 (If I recall right (token))).

    WoW is P2W because you can purchase a boost to save time.

    WoW is P2W because you can get gold from other players by selling items purchased with real money (Indirect with TCG/Token).

    WoW is P2W because you can purchase mounts, pets, and cosmetics.

    WoW does currently not offer the sales of power.

    WoW does currently not offer the sales of currency.

    WoW does currently not offer shortcuts through current content.
    The bolded sentences can be dismissed tbh. The rest if probably subjective.

    You could argue the pets/mounts one but the purchasable mounts, pets and cosmetics arent end game stuff so you arent winning anything. Everyone who sees you using those cosmetics kow they are bought as opposed to buying boosts

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    B) Aren’t they though? But I, as a special snowflake feel that they sure are, as I, as a special snowflake only play for cosmetics, and they sure are my grain of salt.
    Oh I see, you're trolling. Carry on, then.

    My bad for thinking someone actually wanted to discuss something.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    SNIP

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    Even without the token, WoW would still be P2W because you can earn gold by selling TCG items in WoW too.
    Thats a good argument. Since the selling of TCG items arent supported by wow - they are handled externally - i disagree with it. But i can see the argument

  8. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    The bolded sentences can be dismissed tbh. The rest if probably subjective.

    You could argue the pets/mounts one but the purchasable mounts, pets and cosmetics arent end game stuff so you arent winning anything. Everyone who sees you using those cosmetics kow they are bought as opposed to buying boosts
    It was included because winning is subjective to the game. Some collect and believe that the most achievement points are winning.

    As the two last lines, they should still stay as they are factually true.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Thats a good argument. Since the selling of TCG items arent supported by wow - they are handled externally - i disagree with it. But i can see the argument
    Well, the sales of TCG items are now not supported by Blizzard but they were items of production approved, commissioned, and sold by Blizzard, so they are still a legal product you may buy for real money and sell for gold in-game.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    It was included because winning is subjective to the game. Some collect and believe that the most achievement points are winning.

    As the two last lines, they should still stay as they are factually true.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well, the sales of TCG items are now not supported by Blizzard but they were items of production approved, commissioned, and sold by Blizzard, so they are still a legal product you may buy for real money and sell for gold in-game.
    Completely agree yeah. But since its handled outside the game and thus not directly supported i look at it differently. Its a matter of perspective in my opinion.

    Blizzard didnt make the TCG items for people to sell - that was a sideeffect.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by Gehco View Post
    It was included because winning is subjective to the game. Some collect and believe that the most achievement points are winning.

    As the two last lines, they should still stay as they are factually true.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well, the sales of TCG items are now not supported by Blizzard but they were items of production approved, commissioned, and sold by Blizzard, so they are still a legal product you may buy for real money and sell for gold in-game.
    Which is a practice that is not legally allowed. Selling store mounts for gold is also possible but it is bannable.
    While the end result is the same there is a clear cut difference between the action being endorsed by the company or just a loophole that is inevitable due to player greed and other means of trading.
    To add on to that, these illegal practices (buying gold from bots and selling TCG/store mounts for gold) did not occur as commonly as the official way of buying gold through the token. Therefore, even though the end result was the same, the frequency at which it happened was not. And it was also reassuring that it was not endorsed by blizzard.

  11. #691
    Yes and no.

    On one side you can pay to finish the game raid/story/gear wise.

    On the other hand people who do it this way will always have to pay their way. They will never be able to clear mythic/rank high in PvP/clear high M+ Keys without paying someone to carry them.

    Every person who can will never pay their way to the top as getting a full set of gear is laughable easy in wow and paying RL money for it is stupid. Unless you are in the WFR. Because well... these earlie items give you an edge. But their own fault. No one forces them to participate in it.

    So. Winning no. Finishing... maybe. Also strawman: I never met one single person who bought themselves a full set of max lvl gear via boosts...

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Viikkis View Post
    Maybe I'm nitpicking here but WoW token and boost are more like pay to advance. Skip playtime but you don't really "win" the game. If you had a token in store which could be used to let's say insta kill 1 raid boss per raid THAT would be pay to WIN. Just an example.

    But it is really about what is winning in WoW anyways?
    when play time is the limiting factor of your characters power, then what? look at TBC with the boost, hardcore players are feeling forced to abandon their high warlord mains, and just buy a boost, this way they can play the best race for their class for TBC. I mean, in my opinion mounts etc is Pay to win, because the game USED to be revolved around mounts a lot. they showed off your characters achievements etc. I dont collect mounts, I dont collect transmogs, I pvp, I raid, I do m+. and that is it, and even I think its bullshit mount collecters have pay 2 win options in their wow gameplay of choice. the wow token has made it so I havent paid sub on 2-3 accounts since its release. it favors me hugely since I dont really want to get into selling gold. and I still hate them, Yes ppl would just buy gold instead, but atleast some of them used to get banned then.

  13. #693
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Completely agree yeah. But since its handled outside the game and thus not directly supported i look at it differently. Its a matter of perspective in my opinion.

    Blizzard didnt make the TCG items for people to sell - that was a sideeffect.
    They made them as collectibles, so they would've known that there was a chance of them being sold on. And they made them purposely able to be traded in-game (most of them, a few couldn't, for some reason). The TCG was an exclusive product that people stockpiled and recirculated many times, collecting earnings of gold on them.

    I mean, TCG is actually one step worse than tokens, for you needed to indulge yourself in gambling to gain the items in the real world from vendors who did not hold much faith in the TCG, and this didn't buy too many in stock, but in the end, it all leads to a massive earning for some - either reselling for real money, or for gold.

    I know they are discontinued but we also know that there is a lot of cards out on the market, scratched, and we have seen in some communities that they have TCG items stockpiled to make a good earning of gold on the auction.

    And if we look at the token, due to it being digital, and if they were to discontinue them, you would most likely have a deadline to use your tokens that you have stockpiled - unlike TCG.

    Both items to be sold by Blizzard for real money, to serve as a product for you to trade, to earn gold.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Delever View Post
    Which is a practice that is not legally allowed. Selling store mounts for gold is also possible but it is bannable.
    While the end result is the same there is a clear cut difference between the action being endorsed by the company or just a loophole that is inevitable due to player greed and other means of trading.
    To add on to that, these illegal practices (buying gold from bots and selling TCG/store mounts for gold) did not occur as commonly as the official way of buying gold through the token. Therefore, even though the end result was the same, the frequency at which it happened was not. And it was also reassuring that it was not endorsed by blizzard.
    The sale of TCG loot (the BoE ones) is actually legally permitted for gold or real money.
    (Edit: added the specification of the TCG cards having to be the actual BoE loot)

    As for sales of store mounts for gold, if you do not convert the gold to battle.net currency to purchase it yourself, then yes, that is bannable if purchased from another person. Not the same as TCG.
    Last edited by Lochton; 2021-06-04 at 11:29 AM.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit View Post
    PvE is same competition as school grades - sure you aint breaking anyone's nose but your ranking is still competitive. Casuals buy boosts to rank higher so they get easier invites to groups and the top guilds get as much gold for gearing faster and go even into debt to buy advantages. Its identical to doping in sports. If you want to win you cant avoid buying advantages because the rest also do it.

    For pvp the bigger issue is that the carries play vs regular people and destroy their fun with onesided slaughter. Its killing pvp itself when people smurf among noobs to make gold.
    That's just complaining over how Tiffany's dress is prettier than yours - sure, it may be so but any adult can see that it is of no cobsequential difference and does not actually affect you aversely beyond what you do to yourself.

    Indeed it's PvP where the real issues are at when it comes to P2Win, as it simply discourages people from bothering with it at all. Unsurprisingly, unfair games quickly start losing their reasons for existence.
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  15. #695
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    Oh I see, you're trolling. Carry on, then.

    My bad for thinking someone actually wanted to discuss something.
    Ah the good old trolling strawman, what a time to be alive!
    Let's see here, where as I originally asked to be presented a game, so I could debunk the pay to win aspect, you could have discussed but decided to go with "pong."
    Yes, I sure was the troll there.
    Nevertheless, I quoted your pong, and presented you with things that could easily(especially in mmo-c) be seen as pay to win.(as everything is, and can be seen subjective, everything can be anything because personal opinion has the same value as facts)
    Yes, I'm the troll here. Definitely.
    But by looking at your posts, I see we are on the same page, neither of us thinks wow is pay to win, yet here we are arguing, just for the sakes of arguing.
    And I'm trolling? gtfo
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie Eater View Post
    Have you read the planned frost mage "nerfs" ?!? It's like nerfing a hangman's rope by coloring it blue.
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  16. #696
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuppy View Post
    Ah the good old trolling strawman, what a time to be alive!
    Pointing out trolling as trolling, is not strawmanning.

    Feel free to continue trolling, though. Don't let me get in your way. I'm sure it's more interesting than half the drivel these people are posting, if nothing else.

  17. #697
    Remember that time Scrype paid 7000$ for gold to get BoE's to lose the world first race to a group that didn't do so? Pepperidge Farms remembers. Blizzard didn't even ban him!

  18. #698
    It depends how you define your "win criteria". For a lot of people getting CE and KSM is equal to winning WoW. So in that regards WoW is pay to win.

  19. #699
    Yes it's gone full p2w, as an option now. But in pve I don't care that much, cause it doesn't really ruin it for me. Sure you could get a booster in your group, but I go by number of 15's runs, and if its only 10, I'm not inviting. They can't do anything with their gear anyway.

    PvP is absolute dogshit now with boosters. Only a true shill or seller could defend blizzard for that crap

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    and what happened to all those games? they died
    The current model of P2W games on phones is best accurate to describe pay to skip or save time, all p2w games use money to save/skip time, but nothing in any game isn't available for all players, the free player just spend 1502 hour more to get it
    The model of literally put best items behind money and u can get it only with money is dead since years, now u get it by spend cash now or spend hours farming or wait for long cds
    And p2w isn't pay to get the best possible, any advantage is p2w
    And since u 'remember', do u also 'remember' when games were pay its price get full game?
    There's still several out there last I checked, but quite a few do have shorter lifespans due to the nature of them yes.

    But I have to disagree on the P2W description, if you're using phone games as an example too. Take Fire Emblem Heroes for example. There's certain mechanics you can only use if you pay a monthly sub cost, along with certain heroes you can only get if you do also. There's no way for a free player to get around that.

    The smarter games would shift to making it a time sink, but that doesn't mean all of them are like that. But at the end of the day, P2W has always been about "The best". You're paying to win, it's the phrase itself. It's harder to translate that to something like WoW though.


    And I'm not quite sure what the game price has to do with WoW, but I'm also not going to agree with the idea that DLC caused some horrible shift in games. It's pretty overblown in my opinion, and there's not many games that genuinely cut the game in half just to sell it as DLC. Although I am still rather mad over Asura's Wrath putting the actual end of the game behind DLC.

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